New Feature - Champions 2.0 (Live with R287)

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  • KGB
    KGB Posts: 3,236 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited September 2023

    @bbigler said:
    After reading these posts, I have many points I would like to make about this:
    1. Ascending 1s, 2s and 3s will give you better rewards and is the smartest way to farm.
    2. Ascending 4    s will give equivalent rewards but a stronger 4* to use
    3. Unfortunately, this would take a crazy amount of roster slots to ascend everyone, 5 slots per 1*, 4 slots per 2*, 3 slots per 3*, etc.
    4. Most players will not be ascending 4s anytime soon and even if they do it would take years to hit 550. Even 1s would take at least a year (unless you have a hoard of standard tokens).
    5. This is actually good for new rosters because they could ascend just a few lower tier characters really fast.

    My quibbles with this are:

    4) - Actually many players (At least vets on this Forum) have a couple max champed 4* (particularly the meta ones which tended to be shargeted to 370 ASAP). Those like America Chavez will be well served to push up from 370 to 450 (80 levels!) for just 13 covers (champ a 2nd America) for the extra health + 5* match damage. So expect to see quite a few Polaris, Juggs, America, Karnaks etc ascended even if they are just baby champed (where lots of players are anyway)

    3) - It only takes a crazy amount of slots if you are going to do multiple at a time. Otherwise you only need 4-5 more slots to ascend 1 at a time (7 for a 1* which is worst case) . For example I have a fully duplicate 2* farm (a max champed + one building). I could ascend all my 2's to 3's on day 1 without needing a single extra slot and then I could start the process of getting those to 266 which will take a while before I need any extra slots for ascending reasons.

    What's clear to me is that new player benefit this most from this because their 1* will be relevant much longer (can ascend them all to 144 which is max 2). Whether it's really worth ascending further (to a 3) is debatable since the 3* tier has a lot of characters and plenty of those are quite good (the 2* tier doesn't have much in it so ascending Juggs and Spiderman makes sense).

    KGB

  • jsmjsmjsm00
    jsmjsmjsm00 Posts: 268 Mover and Shaker

    Yeah I'm curious how they concluded points 1 and 2 given other comparisons are showing it as strictly inferior rewards compared to farming.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,820 Chairperson of the Boards

    I dunno, the 5* champion rewards are really, really good. It's a 4-slot rotation of LT, HP, 25CP, and a bunch of iso.

    Yes, you lose out on specific shards from 4* feeders, but I'll take the tokens and CP all day.

    I don't know how the 3->4 rewards work, or the other, lower tiers.

  • Pantera236
    Pantera236 Posts: 521 Critical Contributor
    edited September 2023

    It won't take 7 roster slots for a 1*. For most of the time you only need 2.

    First off, I realize I misspelled Spidey. Not gonna go through all those and change them 😏

    When it says "wait for 13 covers" you will need a slot just for the time to roster them and combine them. Even a lot of the time that level 94 is being immediately combined with a level 166.

    You can even hoard standard tokens, should take about 200 tokens to get 26 covers for the wait for 13 covers spots.

    Only one time do you ever need a 5th slot and it's a wait for 13 covers.

    Even the 4th slot is always a wait for 13 covers and once a level 94 immediately combined with a 166.

    A 3rd slot is needed from lines 24 through 29 and if you didn't want to hold that 3rd slot you could hoard tokens for that, should be about 800 tokens.

    There's quite a bit of time where you are only needing 1 slot even. It's not quite as bad as some are making it.

    Edit to add I'm not taking into account waiting to combine 2 max champed. Would still not change the 5th slot and 4th slot would just be one time of taking a level 94 to 144. Even for the 3rd slot this would only add 2 times of taking a level 94 to 144. Again you could hoard tokens for that.

  • Punter1
    Punter1 Posts: 729 Critical Contributor

    @bbigler said:
    After reading these posts, I have many points I would like to make about this:
    1. Ascending 1s, 2s and 3s will give you better rewards and is the smartest way to farm.
    2. Ascending 4    s will give equivalent rewards but a stronger 4* to use
    3. Unfortunately, this would take a crazy amount of roster slots to ascend everyone, 5 slots per 1*, 4 slots per 2*, 3 slots per 3*, etc.
    4. Most players will not be ascending 4s anytime soon and even if they do it would take years to hit 550. Even 1s would take at least a year (unless you have a hoard of standard tokens).
    5. This is actually good for new rosters because they could ascend just a few lower tier characters really fast.

    Mostly agree, however or to reinforce:

    1. 4s as 5s give worse rewards thanks to the 4:1 ratio, you also miss out on guaranteed 5s that come with any feeder 4*, only LTs in the 5* champ rewards. 100x 4* champ level rewards > 25x 5* champ level rewards

    2. as others noted - yes theoretically if all ascending equally at one point the number of slots needed would be crazy, but in practice some degree of roster spot sharing will occur so it's not too crazy. That being said it will get convoluted as you get multiple 1s and 2s higher and need to remember what stage you are now at!

    3. agree here. Those at 550 may have double max dupes, congrats they get an ascended 5* at 475, how useable are they when at 550 MMR? Their 3rd (and 4th and 5th!) copy is "useless" to the progression of the ascension so now they have to somehow pull 100 more covers just to get a lvl 500... it's a long journey from Monday to a 550 4*

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,820 Chairperson of the Boards

    I have 550s, and lvl475 5* can be usable when they're boosted, depending on who it is.

    I don't expect any ascended 4* to be usable for me when not boosted, but when they're getting +100lvls, hopefully they'll be good. I'll still ascend every 4* on that list on Monday.

  • bbigler
    bbigler Posts: 2,111 Chairperson of the Boards

    Many players could ascend their max 4s now by using a baby champ 4, but if they did they would lose out on double dipping champ rewards. So, what’s better? A higher level 4* now or more champ rewards in the long run?

    A 1* takes 5 slots in this situation: you have a 4Spidey + 3Spidey + 2* Spidey + 2 x 1*Spidey. You then start combining them and free up spots, but at this point it takes 5.

    Since it will take a long time for any character to ascend to 550, I really doubt players will ascend them 1 at a time, thus the need for a million slots.

  • bbigler
    bbigler Posts: 2,111 Chairperson of the Boards

    As for champ rewards, I did a comparison this way: if you have 2 x 3 * max champs, you could use your next 200 covers (plus the 100 covers credit) to ascend and get all 4 * champ rewards OR recycle that 3 * twice and get the 2nd to level 240. When comparing those champ rewards (using the No Feeder), the ascension option gives you twice as much.

    I did the same analysis with 2 x 4 * max champs where you could spend your next 300 covers (plus the 100 cover credit) either going to 550 OR recycling 3 times. Those rewards turned out to be practically the same in terms of pulls from LT and CP (using the No Feeder).

    So, you don’t get fewer rewards when ascending 2 x 4 * max champs, but you do miss the 5* covers / shards if it’s a feeder. So, what’s better? A higher level 4* or those 5 * shards?

    Don’t analyze it strictly from the 3:1 or 4:1 cover/level ratio. If you wait to ascend with 2 max champs you get a boost of free levels and rewards in the next tier. What’s insane is getting to the point where 4 x 1 * covers gives you a 5* champ reward.

  • bbigler
    bbigler Posts: 2,111 Chairperson of the Boards

    To save slots, you could hoard tokens so that when you open them you have enough covers to ascend 1s and 2s to level 3. Then you build, over time, those 3 * and 4 * versions.

  • ArchusMonk
    ArchusMonk Posts: 205 Tile Toppler

    @meadowsweet said:
    So I've probably screwed up my maths somewhere, but I was trying to work out how many total covers (or shard equivalents) it would take in order to level up a character all the way to 550:

    5★: 113 covers
    (straightforward: 13 covers to champ, 100 covers to max champ)

    4★: 526 covers
    (13+113=126 4★ Binding, 1x4x100=400 5★ Ascension)

    3★: 952 covers
    (2x13+2x113=252 3★ Bindings, 1x3x100=300 4★ Ascension, 1x4x100=400 5★ Ascension)

    2★: 1,404 covers
    (4x13+4x63=304 2★ Bindings, 2x2x100=400 3★ Ascensions, 1x3x100=300 4★ Ascension, 1x4x100=400 5★ Ascension)

    1★ (3 Powers): 1,508 covers
    (16x13=208 1★ Bindings, 4x1x50=200 2★ Ascensions, 2x2x100=400 3★ Ascensions, 1x3x100=300 4★ Ascension, 1x4x100=400 5★ Ascension)

    1★ (2 Powers): 1,460 covers
    (16x10=160 1★ Bindings, 4x1x50=200 2★ Ascensions, 2x2x100=400 3★ Ascensions, 1x3x100=300 4★ Ascension, 1x4x100=400 5★ Ascension)

    [Legend: "4x1x50=200 2★ Ascensions" means you have to upgrade (4) characters at an 'exchange rate' of (1) cover per level through (50) total levels, at a cost of (200) covers.]

    It is odd that the 'exchange rate' at the 5★ tier is 4 covers per 1 level, regardless of whether you're talking about a 4★ character or a 2★ character. Given how much more common 2★ covers are than 4★ covers (and the fact that they're divided amongst many fewer 2★ characters), a 2★ character will fly from level 450 to level 550 in a tiny fraction of the time that it will take the 4★ character.

    Anyway, feel free to let me know what I got wrong!

    1* (3 Powers) should be 1908 covers
    16x13=208 to make 16 max 1*. 8 bindings produces 8 2* level 94 x 50 level each = 400 covers to make 8x max 2*. 4 max bindings produces 4 3* level 191 x 75 more levels each x 2 covers per level = 600 covers to make 4x max 3*. 2 max bindings produces 2 4* level 303 + 1 extra cover x 66 2/3 more levels each x 3 covers per level = 400 covers to make 2x max 4*. 1 max binding produces a 5* level 475 x 75 more levels x 4 covers per level = 300 covers. Total = 1908 covers.

    2* should be 1804 covers
    8x63=504 to make 8 max 2*. 4 max bindings produces 4 3* level 191 x 75 more levels each x 2 covers per level = 600 covers to make 4 max 3*. 2 max bindings produces 2 4* level 303 + 1 extra cover x 66 2/3 more levels each x 3 covers per level = 400 covers to make 2x max 4*. 1 max binding produces a 5* level 475 x 75 more levels x 4 covers per level = 300 covers. Total = 1804 covers.

    3* should be 1152 covers
    4x113=452 covers to make 4 max 3*. 2 max bindings produces 2 4* level 303 + 1 extra cover x 66 2/3 more levels each x 3 covers per level = 400 covers to make 2x max 4*. 1 max binding produces a 5* level 475 x 75 more levels x 4 covers per level = 300 covers. Total = 1152 covers.

  • primetime21
    primetime21 Posts: 90 Match Maker

    I'm not sure if I missed this somewhere but do we know the second group will drop? I just fully champed my 2nd Nova--they're not in the first group eligible; I'm wondering if I should wait until I see if they're in the second group. Usually I would sell one but if it will be a month or something like that I'll probably hold on to both.

  • sambrookjm
    sambrookjm Posts: 2,163 Chairperson of the Boards

    So is this similar to the changes that will be taking place with Supports next year?

  • KenshinUK
    KenshinUK Posts: 91 Match Maker

    This new feature sounds pretty good, I and my near 1300 standard packs, look forward to it!

  • Kolence
    Kolence Posts: 969 Critical Contributor

    @ArchusMonk said:

    @meadowsweet said:
    So I've probably screwed up my maths somewhere, but I was trying to work out how many total covers (or shard equivalents) it would take in order to level up a character all the way to 550:

    5★: 113 covers
    (straightforward: 13 covers to champ, 100 covers to max champ)

    4★: 526 covers
    (13+113=126 4★ Binding, 1x4x100=400 5★ Ascension)

    3★: 952 covers
    (2x13+2x113=252 3★ Bindings, 1x3x100=300 4★ Ascension, 1x4x100=400 5★ Ascension)

    2★: 1,404 covers
    (4x13+4x63=304 2★ Bindings, 2x2x100=400 3★ Ascensions, 1x3x100=300 4★ Ascension, 1x4x100=400 5★ Ascension)

    1★ (3 Powers): 1,508 covers
    (16x13=208 1★ Bindings, 4x1x50=200 2★ Ascensions, 2x2x100=400 3★ Ascensions, 1x3x100=300 4★ Ascension, 1x4x100=400 5★ Ascension)

    1★ (2 Powers): 1,460 covers
    (16x10=160 1★ Bindings, 4x1x50=200 2★ Ascensions, 2x2x100=400 3★ Ascensions, 1x3x100=300 4★ Ascension, 1x4x100=400 5★ Ascension)

    [Legend: "4x1x50=200 2★ Ascensions" means you have to upgrade (4) characters at an 'exchange rate' of (1) cover per level through (50) total levels, at a cost of (200) covers.]

    It is odd that the 'exchange rate' at the 5★ tier is 4 covers per 1 level, regardless of whether you're talking about a 4★ character or a 2★ character. Given how much more common 2★ covers are than 4★ covers (and the fact that they're divided amongst many fewer 2★ characters), a 2★ character will fly from level 450 to level 550 in a tiny fraction of the time that it will take the 4★ character.

    Anyway, feel free to let me know what I got wrong!

    1* (3 Powers) should be 1908 covers
    16x13=208 to make 16 max 1*. 8 bindings produces 8 2* level 94 x 50 level each = 400 covers to make 8x max 2*. 4 max bindings produces 4 3* level 191 x 75 more levels each x 2 covers per level = 600 covers to make 4x max 3*. 2 max bindings produces 2 4* level 303 + 1 extra cover x 66 2/3 more levels each x 3 covers per level = 400 covers to make 2x max 4*. 1 max binding produces a 5* level 475 x 75 more levels x 4 covers per level = 300 covers. Total = 1908 covers.

    2* should be 1804 covers
    8x63=504 to make 8 max 2*. 4 max bindings produces 4 3* level 191 x 75 more levels each x 2 covers per level = 600 covers to make 4 max 3*. 2 max bindings produces 2 4* level 303 + 1 extra cover x 66 2/3 more levels each x 3 covers per level = 400 covers to make 2x max 4*. 1 max binding produces a 5* level 475 x 75 more levels x 4 covers per level = 300 covers. Total = 1804 covers.

    3* should be 1152 covers
    4x113=452 covers to make 4 max 3*. 2 max bindings produces 2 4* level 303 + 1 extra cover x 66 2/3 more levels each x 3 covers per level = 400 covers to make 2x max 4*. 1 max binding produces a 5* level 475 x 75 more levels x 4 covers per level = 300 covers. Total = 1152 covers.

    I think you're both right, if everything works like we think atm :)
    It's just the older quote is leveling 1 copy to max champ and the other to base champ level, in order to ascend to the next tier. At each tier...
    The newer quote looks like leveling 2 copies to max champ and then merging them. Which gives even better overall returns per 1* cover... :)
    It's clear that farming will be even better, with 1*s now. But what's funny to me, is it's best returns to sell at max champ 4-stars, for "flipping" a character in the farm. At least in terms of Iso-8. Just shows how expensive 4-stars have remained all these years (3-stars cost to champ got reduced long ago...)
    Also, up to max champ 3-star, it's the same total number of covers (302), whether you max champ both 2-stars or just one.
    At max champ 4-star, it would take extra 200 covers, but you again double dip on 3-star champ rewards. :)

  • Blackstone
    Blackstone Posts: 603 Critical Contributor

    Lots of math....
    And figuring out the math is valid...
    But I think I care less about rewards math, and more about usability of the characters, which includes how fun they are to play.

    If an ascended 2* Storm (randomly chosen) has great synergy/usefulness/fun playability at the 3, 4, or 5* tier, then she's worth elevating.

    Of course, we won't know who is worth the effort until people get characters elevated and we start seeing how they play.

    It's entirely possible certain characters will be a great fit when ascended (a 2 becoming a 3 for example)... But suck when ascended again (the same character becoming a 4) so every character will need a different rating at each higher level.

    But that's not even objective. Meta characters are meta for a reason. Beyond that personal tastes matters. Those who only use characters that provide the fastest/easiest wins might disagree with that, but that only proves my point. Different people value different things.

    I find 5* Mags (just a personal example) more fun than most meta characters and I use him a fair amount. I'm not at the top of any rankings... But what's the point of being at the top if you're not enjoying getting there... Again, just my opinion.

    Anyway, I'm not saying anyone is wrong (and I'm still interested in seeing the math) I'm just saying there's more to consider.

    My 4's are champed, but I don't see me being able to champ 4* dupes anytime soon.

    I'll likely hit the 1's and 2's hard initially and hope I find fun combinations on the way.

  • ArchusMonk
    ArchusMonk Posts: 205 Tile Toppler

    3* Ascending vs. Farming

    I'm going to go through the math of the benefits of Ascending vs farming then selling 3* max champs. Please feel free to correct any typos or errors.

    The math is going to assume 3* non-feeders to make value comparisons easier. The difference in rewards between feeders and non-feeders is roughly 3 4* cover equivalents in exchange for 3 HT, 2 MT, and 2 CT, which is a minimal difference in my opinion.

    My math will also assume that you max champ every character before binding them because why would you want to miss out on any rewards?

    Each 3* level 266 costs 119,919 ISO and requires 113 covers. The champion rewards are 57,500 ISO8, 650 HP, 37 CP, 5 HT, 4 MT, 2 CT, and 5 LT, so the net rewards of producing a 3* level 266 are -62,419 ISO8, 650 HP, 37 CP, 5 HT, 4 MT, 2 CT, and 5 LT.

    2 3* level 266 are required to Ascend to 4*, so the balance sheet is -124,838 ISO8, 1300 HP, 74 CP, 10 HT, 8 MT, 4 CT, and 10 LT.
    Ascending 2x 3* level 266 produces a 4* level 303 + 1 saved cover (the 4* level 270 produced by 3* 266 + 3* 166 + 100 extra covers/3 covers per level at 4*).

    Selling a max champ 3* nets you 105,000 ISO8 and 500 HP, so the net rewards for farming a max champ 3* are 42,581 ISO8, 1150 HP, 37 CP, 5 HT, 4 MT, 2 CT, and 5 LT, so if you had sold the 2 max champ 3* instead, you would have 85,162 ISO8, 2300 HP, 74 CP, 10 HT, 8 MT, 4 CT, and 10 LT. At this stage, the difference between selling your 2 max champ 3* and Ascending them is -210,000 ISO8 (-124,838 - 85,162) and -1000 HP (1300-2300). NOTE: For simplicity, I am ignoring the champ rewards you would have so far from the 33 4* champ levels since they will be counted in the next step.

    You need 200 (66 2/3 more levels x 3) more covers to produce a 4 star level 370. The champion rewards for 100 levels (some of which you got as retro rewards on Ascent) are 112,500 ISO8, 4000 HP, 250 CP, and 10 LT, but you could have used those 200 covers to farm 1 more max champ 3 star and had 87 covers left over. As noted above, that max champ 3 star sold would have produced 42,581 ISO8, 1150 HP, 37 CP, 5 HT, 4 MT, 2 CT, and 5 LT AND you'd have 87 3 star covers left over. At this stage, the difference between having an Ascended 4 star level 370 vs. farming all those covers and selling the max champs is -140,081 ISO8 (-210,000 from prior stage + 112,500 champ rewards - 42,581 for not farming), 1850 HP (-1000 from prior stage + 4000 from champ rewards - 1150 for missed rewards from farming), 213 CP (250 champ rewards - 37 for missed rewards from farming), -5 HT, -4 MT, -2 CT, 5 LT (10 champ rewards - 5 for missed rewards from farming), and -87 leftover covers.

    2 4* level 370 are required to Ascend to 5*, so the balance sheet is -280,162 ISO8, 3700 HP, 416 CP, -10 HT, -8 MT, -4 CT, 10 LT, and -174 leftover covers.
    Ascending 2x 4* level 370 produces a 5* level 475 (the 5* level 450 produced by 4* 370 + 4* 270 + 100 extra levels/4 covers per level at 5*).
    You need 300 (75 more levels x4) more covers to produce a 5 star level 550. The champion rewards for 100 levels (some of which you got as retro rewards on Ascent) are 220,000 ISO8, 20,000 HP, 625 CP, and 25 LT, but you could have used those 300 covers (+174 leftover covers) to farm 4 more max champ 3 star and had 22 covers left over. As noted above, those 4 max champ 3 star sold would have produced 170,324 ISO8, 4600 HP, 148 CP, 20 HT, 16 MT, 8 CT, and 20 LT AND you'd have 22 3 star covers left over. At this stage, the difference between having an Ascended 5 star level 550 vs. farming all those covers and selling the max champs is -230,486 ISO8 (-280,162 from prior stage + 220,000 champ rewards -170,324 missed rewards from farming), 11,700 HP (3700 from prior stage + 20000 from champ rewards - 4600 for missed rewards from farming), 893 CP (416 from prior stage + 625 champ rewards - 148 for missed rewards from farming), -30 HT (-10 from prior stage - 20 for missed rewards from farming), -24 MT (-8 from prior stage - 16 from missed rewards for not farming), -12 CT (-4 from prior stage -8 from missed rewards for not farming), 30 LT (10 from prior stage +25 champ rewards -5 missed rewards from farming), and -22 leftover covers.

    Your total rewards for bringing a 3* to 5* 550 (instead of farming all the covers) are -230,486 ISO8, 11,700 HP, 893 CP, -30 HT, -24 MT, -12 CT, 30 LT, and -22 leftover 3* covers. These numbers are closer, but I'd say Ascending is still favored on balance from a strictly resource perspective.

    Please check my math and numbers. Champ rewards were obtained from the spreadsheet linked in the first post. Thanks

  • Pantera236
    Pantera236 Posts: 521 Critical Contributor
    edited September 2023

    There's only 2 iirc 3* non feeders so might've been better to use either single feeder or double feeder, probably double as I think most are now

    Edit to say it's only 2 that are SINGLE feeders, there are 0 non feeders

  • Kolence
    Kolence Posts: 969 Critical Contributor

    @Pantera236 said:
    There's only 2 iirc 3* non feeders so might've been better to use either single feeder or double feeder, probably double as I think most are now

    Edit to say it's only 2 that are SINGLE feeders, there are 0 non feeders

    Yes, two recent ones (Spider-Rex and Vulture) have missed having a secondary 4-star fed. All the rest have been updated to having double 4-star fed in the last big update.

    The difference in champ rewards is 10k Iso-8 for the 600 secondary 4-star shards.

    That only matters if looking at starting from 3-star covers, though. If ascending 1-star and 2-star, the "not a feeder" table is the right one to look at.

    BTW, I'm currently out of Iso-8, halfway or so? (haven't counted in a while) building the 4-star dupes of 370's, after beeing "post Iso" for years and reaching some 5 million or so maximum in Iso-8 reserves for a while. It started going down even faster since adding the new 3-star releases.

    I hope farming 1-stars is not the only answer the devs are planning on, to help with this issue. Because they are the only ones being purely Iso-8 positive through all this juggling. Other champ rewards are great, and more so as the tiers go higher, but it's all moot if we're all bottlenecked again with Iso, as in the old times... :D

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