@bbigler said: After reading these posts, I have many points I would like to make about this: 1. Ascending 1s, 2s and 3s will give you better rewards and is the smartest way to farm. 2. Ascending 4s will give equivalent rewards but a stronger 4* to use 3. Unfortunately, this would take a crazy amount of roster slots to ascend everyone, 5 slots per 1*, 4 slots per 2*, 3 slots per 3*, etc. 4. Most players will not be ascending 4s anytime soon and even if they do it would take years to hit 550. Even 1s would take at least a year (unless you have a hoard of standard tokens). 5. This is actually good for new rosters because they could ascend just a few lower tier characters really fast.
My quibbles with this are:
4) - Actually many players (At least vets on this Forum) have a couple max champed 4* (particularly the meta ones which tended to be shargeted to 370 ASAP). Those like America Chavez will be well served to push up from 370 to 450 (80 levels!) for just 13 covers (champ a 2nd America) for the extra health + 5* match damage. So expect to see quite a few Polaris, Juggs, America, Karnaks etc ascended even if they are just baby champed (where lots of players are anyway)
3) - It only takes a crazy amount of slots if you are going to do multiple at a time. Otherwise you only need 4-5 more slots to ascend 1 at a time (7 for a 1* which is worst case) . For example I have a fully duplicate 2* farm (a max champed + one building). I could ascend all my 2's to 3's on day 1 without needing a single extra slot and then I could start the process of getting those to 266 which will take a while before I need any extra slots for ascending reasons.
What's clear to me is that new player benefit this most from this because their 1* will be relevant much longer (can ascend them all to 144 which is max 2). Whether it's really worth ascending further (to a 3) is debatable since the 3* tier has a lot of characters and plenty of those are quite good (the 2* tier doesn't have much in it so ascending Juggs and Spiderman makes sense).
KGB
Yeah I'm curious how they concluded points 1 and 2 given other comparisons are showing it as strictly inferior rewards compared to farming.
I dunno, the 5* champion rewards are really, really good. It's a 4-slot rotation of LT, HP, 25CP, and a bunch of iso.
Yes, you lose out on specific shards from 4* feeders, but I'll take the tokens and CP all day.
I don't know how the 3->4 rewards work, or the other, lower tiers.
It won't take 7 roster slots for a 1*. For most of the time you only need 2.
First off, I realize I misspelled Spidey. Not gonna go through all those and change them 😏
When it says "wait for 13 covers" you will need a slot just for the time to roster them and combine them. Even a lot of the time that level 94 is being immediately combined with a level 166.
You can even hoard standard tokens, should take about 200 tokens to get 26 covers for the wait for 13 covers spots.
Only one time do you ever need a 5th slot and it's a wait for 13 covers.
Even the 4th slot is always a wait for 13 covers and once a level 94 immediately combined with a 166.
A 3rd slot is needed from lines 24 through 29 and if you didn't want to hold that 3rd slot you could hoard tokens for that, should be about 800 tokens.
There's quite a bit of time where you are only needing 1 slot even. It's not quite as bad as some are making it.
Edit to add I'm not taking into account waiting to combine 2 max champed. Would still not change the 5th slot and 4th slot would just be one time of taking a level 94 to 144. Even for the 3rd slot this would only add 2 times of taking a level 94 to 144. Again you could hoard tokens for that.
Mostly agree, however or to reinforce:
4s as 5s give worse rewards thanks to the 4:1 ratio, you also miss out on guaranteed 5s that come with any feeder 4*, only LTs in the 5* champ rewards. 100x 4* champ level rewards > 25x 5* champ level rewards
as others noted - yes theoretically if all ascending equally at one point the number of slots needed would be crazy, but in practice some degree of roster spot sharing will occur so it's not too crazy. That being said it will get convoluted as you get multiple 1s and 2s higher and need to remember what stage you are now at!
agree here. Those at 550 may have double max dupes, congrats they get an ascended 5* at 475, how useable are they when at 550 MMR? Their 3rd (and 4th and 5th!) copy is "useless" to the progression of the ascension so now they have to somehow pull 100 more covers just to get a lvl 500... it's a long journey from Monday to a 550 4*
I have 550s, and lvl475 5* can be usable when they're boosted, depending on who it is.
I don't expect any ascended 4* to be usable for me when not boosted, but when they're getting +100lvls, hopefully they'll be good. I'll still ascend every 4* on that list on Monday.
Many players could ascend their max 4s now by using a baby champ 4, but if they did they would lose out on double dipping champ rewards. So, what’s better? A higher level 4* now or more champ rewards in the long run?
A 1* takes 5 slots in this situation: you have a 4Spidey + 3Spidey + 2* Spidey + 2 x 1*Spidey. You then start combining them and free up spots, but at this point it takes 5.
Since it will take a long time for any character to ascend to 550, I really doubt players will ascend them 1 at a time, thus the need for a million slots.
1* Ascending vs. Farming (selling)
tl:dr Ascending all your 1* covers is infinitely better than just selling them.
I'm going to go through the math of the benefits of Ascending vs selling off all your 1* covers. Please feel free to correct any typos or errors.
The math is going to assume 3 power 1* characters since the only Ascendable 1* at the start will have 3 powers, and I think we can be pretty confident that a third power will be added to the remaining 1* before they become Ascendable. (If I'm wrong, then the math becomes even more favorable for 1* Ascent.)
1* cover selling = 100 ISO8
My math will also assume that you max champ every character before binding them because why would you want to miss out on any rewards?
Each max level 1* level 50 requires 28,240 ISO8 and 13 covers. 2 1* level 50 are required to Ascend to 2* or 56,480 and 26 covers. This produces a 2* level 94. If you had sold those 26 covers, you would have netted 2,600 ISO8, so at this step you are 59,080 ISO8 in the hole (56,480 to max level + 2,600 you would have gotten for selling).
You need 50 more 1* covers to produce a 2* level 144. Those 50 champion levels produce 16,750 ISO8, 190 HP, 5 CP, 6 HT, 2 ET, and 2 MT, but you could have sold them for 5,000 ISO8. Your ISO8 debt is now 47,330 (59,080 debt from the last step + 5,000 from covers you didn't sell - 16,750 from champ rewards), but you gain 190 HP, 5 CP, 6HT, 2 ET, and 2 MT.
2 2* level 144 are required to Ascend to 3*, so the balance sheet is -94,660 ISO8, 380 HP, 10 CP, 12 HT, 4 ET, and 4 MT. Ascending 2x 2* level 144 produces a 3* level 191 (the 3* level 166 produced by 2* 144 + 2* 94 + 50 extra covers/2 covers per level at 3*). You need 150 (75 more levels x 2) more covers to produce a 3 star level 266. The champion rewards for the 100 levels (some of which you got as retro rewards on Ascent) are 57,500 ISO8, 650 HP, 37 CP, 5 HT, 4 MT, 2 CT, and 5 LT, but you could have sold the 150 covers for 15,000 ISO8. Your ISO8 debt is now 52,160 (94,660 debt + 15,000 from unsold covers - 57,500 from champ rewards), but you have gained 1030 HP, 47 CP, 17 HT, 4 ET, 8 MT, 2 CT, and 5 LT.
2 3* level 266 are required to Ascend to 4*, so the balance sheet is -104,320 ISO8, 2060 HP, 94 CP, 34 HT, 8 ET, 16 MT, 4 CT, and 10 LT. Ascending 2x 3* level 266 produces a 4* level 303 + 1 saved cover (the 4* level 270 produced by 3* 266 + 3* 166 + 100 extra covers/3 covers per level at 4*). You need 200 (66 2/3 more levels x 3) more covers to produce a 4 star level 370. The champion rewards for 100 levels (some of which you got as retro rewards on Ascent) are 112,500 ISO8, 4000 HP, 250 CP, and 10 LT, but you could have sold those 200 covers for 20,000 ISO8. Your ISO8 debt is now only 11,820 (104,320 debt + 20,000 from unsold covers - 112,500 from champ rewards), but you have gained 6060 HP, 344 CP, 34 HT, 8 ET, 16 MT, 4 CT, and 20 LT.
2 4* level 370 are required to Ascend to 5*, so the balance sheet is -23,640 ISO8, 12,120 HP, 688 CP, 68 HT, 16 ET, 32 MT, 8 CT, and 40 LT. Ascending 2x 4* level 370 produces a 5* level 475 (the 5* level 450 produced by 4* 370 + 4* 270 + 100 extra levels/4 covers per level at 5*). You need 300 (75 more levels x4) more covers to produce a 5 star level 550. The champion rewards for 100 levels (some of which you got as retro rewards on Ascent) are 220,000 ISO8, 20,000 HP, 625 CP, and 25 LT, but you could have sold those 300 covers for 30,000 ISO8.
Your total rewards for bringing a 1* to 5* 550 are 166,360 ISO8 (220,000 - 23,640 debt - 30,000 from unsold covers), 32,120 HP, 1313 CP, 68 HT, 16 ET, 32 MT, 8 CT, and 65 LT.
Please check my math and numbers. Champ rewards were obtained from the spreadsheet linked in the first post. Thanks
As for champ rewards, I did a comparison this way: if you have 2 x 3 * max champs, you could use your next 200 covers (plus the 100 covers credit) to ascend and get all 4 * champ rewards OR recycle that 3 * twice and get the 2nd to level 240. When comparing those champ rewards (using the No Feeder), the ascension option gives you twice as much.
I did the same analysis with 2 x 4 * max champs where you could spend your next 300 covers (plus the 100 cover credit) either going to 550 OR recycling 3 times. Those rewards turned out to be practically the same in terms of pulls from LT and CP (using the No Feeder).
So, you don’t get fewer rewards when ascending 2 x 4 * max champs, but you do miss the 5* covers / shards if it’s a feeder. So, what’s better? A higher level 4* or those 5 * shards?
Don’t analyze it strictly from the 3:1 or 4:1 cover/level ratio. If you wait to ascend with 2 max champs you get a boost of free levels and rewards in the next tier. What’s insane is getting to the point where 4 x 1 * covers gives you a 5* champ reward.
To save slots, you could hoard tokens so that when you open them you have enough covers to ascend 1s and 2s to level 3. Then you build, over time, those 3 * and 4 * versions.
@meadowsweet said: So I've probably screwed up my maths somewhere, but I was trying to work out how many total covers (or shard equivalents) it would take in order to level up a character all the way to 550: 5★: 113 covers (straightforward: 13 covers to champ, 100 covers to max champ) 4★: 526 covers (13+113=126 4★ Binding, 1x4x100=400 5★ Ascension) 3★: 952 covers (2x13+2x113=252 3★ Bindings, 1x3x100=300 4★ Ascension, 1x4x100=400 5★ Ascension) 2★: 1,404 covers (4x13+4x63=304 2★ Bindings, 2x2x100=400 3★ Ascensions, 1x3x100=300 4★ Ascension, 1x4x100=400 5★ Ascension) 1★ (3 Powers): 1,508 covers (16x13=208 1★ Bindings, 4x1x50=200 2★ Ascensions, 2x2x100=400 3★ Ascensions, 1x3x100=300 4★ Ascension, 1x4x100=400 5★ Ascension) 1★ (2 Powers): 1,460 covers (16x10=160 1★ Bindings, 4x1x50=200 2★ Ascensions, 2x2x100=400 3★ Ascensions, 1x3x100=300 4★ Ascension, 1x4x100=400 5★ Ascension) [Legend: "4x1x50=200 2★ Ascensions" means you have to upgrade (4) characters at an 'exchange rate' of (1) cover per level through (50) total levels, at a cost of (200) covers.] It is odd that the 'exchange rate' at the 5★ tier is 4 covers per 1 level, regardless of whether you're talking about a 4★ character or a 2★ character. Given how much more common 2★ covers are than 4★ covers (and the fact that they're divided amongst many fewer 2★ characters), a 2★ character will fly from level 450 to level 550 in a tiny fraction of the time that it will take the 4★ character. Anyway, feel free to let me know what I got wrong!
@meadowsweet said: So I've probably screwed up my maths somewhere, but I was trying to work out how many total covers (or shard equivalents) it would take in order to level up a character all the way to 550:
5★: 113 covers (straightforward: 13 covers to champ, 100 covers to max champ)
4★: 526 covers (13+113=126 4★ Binding, 1x4x100=400 5★ Ascension)
3★: 952 covers (2x13+2x113=252 3★ Bindings, 1x3x100=300 4★ Ascension, 1x4x100=400 5★ Ascension)
2★: 1,404 covers (4x13+4x63=304 2★ Bindings, 2x2x100=400 3★ Ascensions, 1x3x100=300 4★ Ascension, 1x4x100=400 5★ Ascension)
1★ (3 Powers): 1,508 covers (16x13=208 1★ Bindings, 4x1x50=200 2★ Ascensions, 2x2x100=400 3★ Ascensions, 1x3x100=300 4★ Ascension, 1x4x100=400 5★ Ascension)
1★ (2 Powers): 1,460 covers (16x10=160 1★ Bindings, 4x1x50=200 2★ Ascensions, 2x2x100=400 3★ Ascensions, 1x3x100=300 4★ Ascension, 1x4x100=400 5★ Ascension)
[Legend: "4x1x50=200 2★ Ascensions" means you have to upgrade (4) characters at an 'exchange rate' of (1) cover per level through (50) total levels, at a cost of (200) covers.]
It is odd that the 'exchange rate' at the 5★ tier is 4 covers per 1 level, regardless of whether you're talking about a 4★ character or a 2★ character. Given how much more common 2★ covers are than 4★ covers (and the fact that they're divided amongst many fewer 2★ characters), a 2★ character will fly from level 450 to level 550 in a tiny fraction of the time that it will take the 4★ character.
Anyway, feel free to let me know what I got wrong!
1* (3 Powers) should be 1908 covers 16x13=208 to make 16 max 1*. 8 bindings produces 8 2* level 94 x 50 level each = 400 covers to make 8x max 2*. 4 max bindings produces 4 3* level 191 x 75 more levels each x 2 covers per level = 600 covers to make 4x max 3*. 2 max bindings produces 2 4* level 303 + 1 extra cover x 66 2/3 more levels each x 3 covers per level = 400 covers to make 2x max 4*. 1 max binding produces a 5* level 475 x 75 more levels x 4 covers per level = 300 covers. Total = 1908 covers.
2* should be 1804 covers 8x63=504 to make 8 max 2*. 4 max bindings produces 4 3* level 191 x 75 more levels each x 2 covers per level = 600 covers to make 4 max 3*. 2 max bindings produces 2 4* level 303 + 1 extra cover x 66 2/3 more levels each x 3 covers per level = 400 covers to make 2x max 4*. 1 max binding produces a 5* level 475 x 75 more levels x 4 covers per level = 300 covers. Total = 1804 covers.
3* should be 1152 covers 4x113=452 covers to make 4 max 3*. 2 max bindings produces 2 4* level 303 + 1 extra cover x 66 2/3 more levels each x 3 covers per level = 400 covers to make 2x max 4*. 1 max binding produces a 5* level 475 x 75 more levels x 4 covers per level = 300 covers. Total = 1152 covers.
I'm not sure if I missed this somewhere but do we know the second group will drop? I just fully champed my 2nd Nova--they're not in the first group eligible; I'm wondering if I should wait until I see if they're in the second group. Usually I would sell one but if it will be a month or something like that I'll probably hold on to both.
So is this similar to the changes that will be taking place with Supports next year?
This new feature sounds pretty good, I and my near 1300 standard packs, look forward to it!
2* Ascending vs. Farming
I'm going to go through the math of the benefits of Ascending vs farming then selling 2* max champs. Please feel free to correct any typos or errors.
The math is going to assume 2* non-feeders to make value comparisons easier. The difference in rewards between feeders and non-feeders is roughly 3 3* cover equivalents in exchange for 2 HT, 2 ET, and 1 MT, which is a minimal difference in my opinion.
Each 2* level 144 costs 69,530 ISO and requires 63 covers. The champion rewards are 16,750 ISO8, 190 HP, 5 CP, 6 HT, 2 ET, and 2 MT, so the net rewards of producing a 2* level 144 are -52,780 ISO8, 190 HP, 5 CP, 6 HT, 2 ET, and 2 MT.
2 2* level 144 are required to Ascend to 3*, so the balance sheet is -105,560 ISO8, 380 HP, 10 CP, 12 HT, 4 ET, and 4 MT. Ascending 2x 2* level 144 produces a 3* level 191 (the 3* level 166 produced by 2* 144 + 2* 94 + 50 extra covers/2 covers per level at 3*).
Selling a max champ 2* nets you 65,000 ISO8 and 125 HP, so the net rewards for farming a max champ 2* are 12,220 ISO8, 315 HP, 5 CP, 6 HT, 2 ET, and 2 MT, so if you had sold the 2 max champ 2* instead, you would have 24,440 ISO8, 630 HP, 10 CP, 12 HT, 4 ET, and 4 MT. At this stage, the difference between selling your 2 max champ 2* and Ascending them is -130,000 ISO8 (-105,560 - 24,440) and -250 HP (630-380). NOTE: For simplicity, I am ignoring the champ rewards you would have so far from the 25 3* champ levels since they will be counted in the next step.
You need 150 (75 more levels x 2) more covers to produce a 3 star level 266. The champion rewards for the 100 levels (some of which you got as retro rewards on Ascent) are 57,500 ISO8, 650 HP, 37 CP, 5 HT, 4 MT, 2 CT, and 5 LT, but you could have used the 150 covers to farm 2 more max champ 2* and had 24 covers left over. As noted above, those 2 max champ 2* sold would have produced 24,440 ISO8, 630 HP, 10 CP, 12 HT, 4 ET, and 4 MT AND you'd have 24 2* covers left over. At this stage, the difference between having an Ascended 3 star level 266 vs. farming all those covers and selling the max champs is -96,940 ISO8 (-130,000 from prior stage + 57,500 champ rewards -24,440 missed by not farming), -230 HP (-250 from prior stage + 650 from champ rewards - 630 for missed rewards from farming), 27 CP (37 champ rewards - 10 for missed rewards from farming), -7 HT (5 champ rewards - 12 for missed rewards from farming), -4 ET (missed rewards for not farming), 2 CT, 5 LT, and -24 leftover covers.
2 3* level 266 are required to Ascend to 4*, so the balance sheet is -193,880 ISO8, -460 HP, 54 CP, -14 HT, -8 ET, 4 CT, 10 LT, and -48 leftover covers. Ascending 2x 3* level 266 produces a 4* level 303 + 1 saved cover (the 4* level 270 produced by 3* 266 + 3* 166 + 100 extra covers/3 covers per level at 4*). You need 200 (66 2/3 more levels x 3) more covers to produce a 4 star level 370. The champion rewards for 100 levels (some of which you got as retro rewards on Ascent) are 112,500 ISO8, 4000 HP, 250 CP, and 10 LT, but you could have used those 200 covers to farm 3 more max champ 2 star and had 11 covers left over. As noted above, those 3 max champ 2 star sold would have produced 36,660 ISO8, 945 HP, 15 CP, 18 HT, 6 ET, and 6 MT AND you'd have 11 2 star covers left over. At this stage, the difference between having an Ascended 4 star level 370 vs. farming all those covers and selling the max champs is -118,040 ISO8 (-193,880 from prior stage + 112,500 champ rewards -36,660 missed by not farming), 2595 HP (-460 from prior stage + 4000 from champ rewards - 945 for missed rewards from farming), 289 CP (54 from prior stage + 250 champ rewards - 15 for missed rewards from farming), -32 HT (-14 from prior stage - 18 for missed rewards from farming), -14 ET (-8 from prior stage - 6 from missed rewards for not farming), -6 MT (from missed rewards for not farming), 4 CT, 20 LT, and -59 leftover covers (-48 from prior stage - 11 leftover from this stage).
2 4* level 370 are required to Ascend to 5*, so the balance sheet is -236,080 ISO8, 5190 HP, 578 CP, -64 HT, -28 ET, -12 MT, 8 CT, 40 LT, and -118 leftover covers. Ascending 2x 4* level 370 produces a 5* level 475 (the 5* level 450 produced by 4* 370 + 4* 270 + 100 extra levels/4 covers per level at 5*). You need 300 (75 more levels x4) more covers to produce a 5 star level 550. The champion rewards for 100 levels (some of which you got as retro rewards on Ascent) are 220,000 ISO8, 20,000 HP, 625 CP, and 25 LT, but you could have used those 300 covers (+118 leftover covers) to farm 6 more max champ 2 star and had 40 covers left over. As noted above, those 6 max champ 2 star sold would have produced 73,200 ISO8, 1890 HP, 30 CP, 36 HT, 12 ET, and 12 MT AND you'd have 40 2 star covers left over. At this stage, the difference between having an Ascended 5 star level 550 vs. farming all those covers and selling the max champs is -89,380 ISO8 (-236,080 from prior stage + 220,000 champ rewards -73,200 missed by not farming), 23,300 HP (5190 from prior stage + 20000 from champ rewards - 1890 for missed rewards from farming), 1173 CP (578 from prior stage + 625 champ rewards - 30 for missed rewards from farming), -100 HT (-64 from prior stage - 36 for missed rewards from farming), -40 ET (-28 from prior stage - 12 from missed rewards for not farming), -24 MT (-12 from prior stage - 12 from missed rewards for not farming), 8 CT, 65 LT (40 from prior stage +25 champ rewards), and -40 leftover covers.
Your total rewards for bringing a 2* to 5* 550 (instead of farming all the covers) are -89,380 ISO8, 23,300 HP, 1173 CP, -100 HT, -40 ET, -24 MT, 8 CT, 65 LT, and -40 leftover 2* covers. I'd say these numbers still favor ascending over farming.
This one made my head hurt, so please check my math and numbers. Champ rewards were obtained from the spreadsheet linked in the first post. Thanks
EDIT: Fixed a pretty big mistake regarding ISO8 at an early stage.
@ArchusMonk said: @meadowsweet said: So I've probably screwed up my maths somewhere, but I was trying to work out how many total covers (or shard equivalents) it would take in order to level up a character all the way to 550: 5★: 113 covers (straightforward: 13 covers to champ, 100 covers to max champ) 4★: 526 covers (13+113=126 4★ Binding, 1x4x100=400 5★ Ascension) 3★: 952 covers (2x13+2x113=252 3★ Bindings, 1x3x100=300 4★ Ascension, 1x4x100=400 5★ Ascension) 2★: 1,404 covers (4x13+4x63=304 2★ Bindings, 2x2x100=400 3★ Ascensions, 1x3x100=300 4★ Ascension, 1x4x100=400 5★ Ascension) 1★ (3 Powers): 1,508 covers (16x13=208 1★ Bindings, 4x1x50=200 2★ Ascensions, 2x2x100=400 3★ Ascensions, 1x3x100=300 4★ Ascension, 1x4x100=400 5★ Ascension) 1★ (2 Powers): 1,460 covers (16x10=160 1★ Bindings, 4x1x50=200 2★ Ascensions, 2x2x100=400 3★ Ascensions, 1x3x100=300 4★ Ascension, 1x4x100=400 5★ Ascension) [Legend: "4x1x50=200 2★ Ascensions" means you have to upgrade (4) characters at an 'exchange rate' of (1) cover per level through (50) total levels, at a cost of (200) covers.] It is odd that the 'exchange rate' at the 5★ tier is 4 covers per 1 level, regardless of whether you're talking about a 4★ character or a 2★ character. Given how much more common 2★ covers are than 4★ covers (and the fact that they're divided amongst many fewer 2★ characters), a 2★ character will fly from level 450 to level 550 in a tiny fraction of the time that it will take the 4★ character. Anyway, feel free to let me know what I got wrong! 1* (3 Powers) should be 1908 covers 16x13=208 to make 16 max 1*. 8 bindings produces 8 2* level 94 x 50 level each = 400 covers to make 8x max 2*. 4 max bindings produces 4 3* level 191 x 75 more levels each x 2 covers per level = 600 covers to make 4x max 3*. 2 max bindings produces 2 4* level 303 + 1 extra cover x 66 2/3 more levels each x 3 covers per level = 400 covers to make 2x max 4*. 1 max binding produces a 5* level 475 x 75 more levels x 4 covers per level = 300 covers. Total = 1908 covers. 2* should be 1804 covers 8x63=504 to make 8 max 2*. 4 max bindings produces 4 3* level 191 x 75 more levels each x 2 covers per level = 600 covers to make 4 max 3*. 2 max bindings produces 2 4* level 303 + 1 extra cover x 66 2/3 more levels each x 3 covers per level = 400 covers to make 2x max 4*. 1 max binding produces a 5* level 475 x 75 more levels x 4 covers per level = 300 covers. Total = 1804 covers. 3* should be 1152 covers 4x113=452 covers to make 4 max 3*. 2 max bindings produces 2 4* level 303 + 1 extra cover x 66 2/3 more levels each x 3 covers per level = 400 covers to make 2x max 4*. 1 max binding produces a 5* level 475 x 75 more levels x 4 covers per level = 300 covers. Total = 1152 covers.
@ArchusMonk said:
I think you're both right, if everything works like we think atm It's just the older quote is leveling 1 copy to max champ and the other to base champ level, in order to ascend to the next tier. At each tier... The newer quote looks like leveling 2 copies to max champ and then merging them. Which gives even better overall returns per 1* cover... It's clear that farming will be even better, with 1*s now. But what's funny to me, is it's best returns to sell at max champ 4-stars, for "flipping" a character in the farm. At least in terms of Iso-8. Just shows how expensive 4-stars have remained all these years (3-stars cost to champ got reduced long ago...) Also, up to max champ 3-star, it's the same total number of covers (302), whether you max champ both 2-stars or just one. At max champ 4-star, it would take extra 200 covers, but you again double dip on 3-star champ rewards.
Lots of math.... And figuring out the math is valid... But I think I care less about rewards math, and more about usability of the characters, which includes how fun they are to play.
If an ascended 2* Storm (randomly chosen) has great synergy/usefulness/fun playability at the 3, 4, or 5* tier, then she's worth elevating.
Of course, we won't know who is worth the effort until people get characters elevated and we start seeing how they play.
It's entirely possible certain characters will be a great fit when ascended (a 2 becoming a 3 for example)... But suck when ascended again (the same character becoming a 4) so every character will need a different rating at each higher level.
But that's not even objective. Meta characters are meta for a reason. Beyond that personal tastes matters. Those who only use characters that provide the fastest/easiest wins might disagree with that, but that only proves my point. Different people value different things.
I find 5* Mags (just a personal example) more fun than most meta characters and I use him a fair amount. I'm not at the top of any rankings... But what's the point of being at the top if you're not enjoying getting there... Again, just my opinion.
Anyway, I'm not saying anyone is wrong (and I'm still interested in seeing the math) I'm just saying there's more to consider.
My 4's are champed, but I don't see me being able to champ 4* dupes anytime soon.
I'll likely hit the 1's and 2's hard initially and hope I find fun combinations on the way.
3* Ascending vs. Farming
I'm going to go through the math of the benefits of Ascending vs farming then selling 3* max champs. Please feel free to correct any typos or errors.
The math is going to assume 3* non-feeders to make value comparisons easier. The difference in rewards between feeders and non-feeders is roughly 3 4* cover equivalents in exchange for 3 HT, 2 MT, and 2 CT, which is a minimal difference in my opinion.
Each 3* level 266 costs 119,919 ISO and requires 113 covers. The champion rewards are 57,500 ISO8, 650 HP, 37 CP, 5 HT, 4 MT, 2 CT, and 5 LT, so the net rewards of producing a 3* level 266 are -62,419 ISO8, 650 HP, 37 CP, 5 HT, 4 MT, 2 CT, and 5 LT.
2 3* level 266 are required to Ascend to 4*, so the balance sheet is -124,838 ISO8, 1300 HP, 74 CP, 10 HT, 8 MT, 4 CT, and 10 LT. Ascending 2x 3* level 266 produces a 4* level 303 + 1 saved cover (the 4* level 270 produced by 3* 266 + 3* 166 + 100 extra covers/3 covers per level at 4*).
Selling a max champ 3* nets you 105,000 ISO8 and 500 HP, so the net rewards for farming a max champ 3* are 42,581 ISO8, 1150 HP, 37 CP, 5 HT, 4 MT, 2 CT, and 5 LT, so if you had sold the 2 max champ 3* instead, you would have 85,162 ISO8, 2300 HP, 74 CP, 10 HT, 8 MT, 4 CT, and 10 LT. At this stage, the difference between selling your 2 max champ 3* and Ascending them is -210,000 ISO8 (-124,838 - 85,162) and -1000 HP (1300-2300). NOTE: For simplicity, I am ignoring the champ rewards you would have so far from the 33 4* champ levels since they will be counted in the next step.
You need 200 (66 2/3 more levels x 3) more covers to produce a 4 star level 370. The champion rewards for 100 levels (some of which you got as retro rewards on Ascent) are 112,500 ISO8, 4000 HP, 250 CP, and 10 LT, but you could have used those 200 covers to farm 1 more max champ 3 star and had 87 covers left over. As noted above, that max champ 3 star sold would have produced 42,581 ISO8, 1150 HP, 37 CP, 5 HT, 4 MT, 2 CT, and 5 LT AND you'd have 87 3 star covers left over. At this stage, the difference between having an Ascended 4 star level 370 vs. farming all those covers and selling the max champs is -140,081 ISO8 (-210,000 from prior stage + 112,500 champ rewards - 42,581 for not farming), 1850 HP (-1000 from prior stage + 4000 from champ rewards - 1150 for missed rewards from farming), 213 CP (250 champ rewards - 37 for missed rewards from farming), -5 HT, -4 MT, -2 CT, 5 LT (10 champ rewards - 5 for missed rewards from farming), and -87 leftover covers.
2 4* level 370 are required to Ascend to 5*, so the balance sheet is -280,162 ISO8, 3700 HP, 416 CP, -10 HT, -8 MT, -4 CT, 10 LT, and -174 leftover covers. Ascending 2x 4* level 370 produces a 5* level 475 (the 5* level 450 produced by 4* 370 + 4* 270 + 100 extra levels/4 covers per level at 5*). You need 300 (75 more levels x4) more covers to produce a 5 star level 550. The champion rewards for 100 levels (some of which you got as retro rewards on Ascent) are 220,000 ISO8, 20,000 HP, 625 CP, and 25 LT, but you could have used those 300 covers (+174 leftover covers) to farm 4 more max champ 3 star and had 22 covers left over. As noted above, those 4 max champ 3 star sold would have produced 170,324 ISO8, 4600 HP, 148 CP, 20 HT, 16 MT, 8 CT, and 20 LT AND you'd have 22 3 star covers left over. At this stage, the difference between having an Ascended 5 star level 550 vs. farming all those covers and selling the max champs is -230,486 ISO8 (-280,162 from prior stage + 220,000 champ rewards -170,324 missed rewards from farming), 11,700 HP (3700 from prior stage + 20000 from champ rewards - 4600 for missed rewards from farming), 893 CP (416 from prior stage + 625 champ rewards - 148 for missed rewards from farming), -30 HT (-10 from prior stage - 20 for missed rewards from farming), -24 MT (-8 from prior stage - 16 from missed rewards for not farming), -12 CT (-4 from prior stage -8 from missed rewards for not farming), 30 LT (10 from prior stage +25 champ rewards -5 missed rewards from farming), and -22 leftover covers.
Your total rewards for bringing a 3* to 5* 550 (instead of farming all the covers) are -230,486 ISO8, 11,700 HP, 893 CP, -30 HT, -24 MT, -12 CT, 30 LT, and -22 leftover 3* covers. These numbers are closer, but I'd say Ascending is still favored on balance from a strictly resource perspective.
There's only 2 iirc 3* non feeders so might've been better to use either single feeder or double feeder, probably double as I think most are now
Edit to say it's only 2 that are SINGLE feeders, there are 0 non feeders
@Pantera236 said: There's only 2 iirc 3* non feeders so might've been better to use either single feeder or double feeder, probably double as I think most are now Edit to say it's only 2 that are SINGLE feeders, there are 0 non feeders
@Pantera236 said: There's only 2 iirc 3* non feeders so might've been better to use either single feeder or double feeder, probably double as I think most are now
Yes, two recent ones (Spider-Rex and Vulture) have missed having a secondary 4-star fed. All the rest have been updated to having double 4-star fed in the last big update.
The difference in champ rewards is 10k Iso-8 for the 600 secondary 4-star shards.
That only matters if looking at starting from 3-star covers, though. If ascending 1-star and 2-star, the "not a feeder" table is the right one to look at.
BTW, I'm currently out of Iso-8, halfway or so? (haven't counted in a while) building the 4-star dupes of 370's, after beeing "post Iso" for years and reaching some 5 million or so maximum in Iso-8 reserves for a while. It started going down even faster since adding the new 3-star releases.
I hope farming 1-stars is not the only answer the devs are planning on, to help with this issue. Because they are the only ones being purely Iso-8 positive through all this juggling. Other champ rewards are great, and more so as the tiers go higher, but it's all moot if we're all bottlenecked again with Iso, as in the old times...