New Feature - Champions 2.0 (Live with R287)

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  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,991 Chairperson of the Boards

    I have 550s, and lvl475 5* can be usable when they're boosted, depending on who it is.

    I don't expect any ascended 4* to be usable for me when not boosted, but when they're getting +100lvls, hopefully they'll be good. I'll still ascend every 4* on that list on Monday.

  • bbigler
    bbigler Posts: 2,111 Chairperson of the Boards

    Many players could ascend their max 4s now by using a baby champ 4, but if they did they would lose out on double dipping champ rewards. So, what’s better? A higher level 4* now or more champ rewards in the long run?

    A 1* takes 5 slots in this situation: you have a 4Spidey + 3Spidey + 2* Spidey + 2 x 1*Spidey. You then start combining them and free up spots, but at this point it takes 5.

    Since it will take a long time for any character to ascend to 550, I really doubt players will ascend them 1 at a time, thus the need for a million slots.

  • bbigler
    bbigler Posts: 2,111 Chairperson of the Boards

    As for champ rewards, I did a comparison this way: if you have 2 x 3 * max champs, you could use your next 200 covers (plus the 100 covers credit) to ascend and get all 4 * champ rewards OR recycle that 3 * twice and get the 2nd to level 240. When comparing those champ rewards (using the No Feeder), the ascension option gives you twice as much.

    I did the same analysis with 2 x 4 * max champs where you could spend your next 300 covers (plus the 100 cover credit) either going to 550 OR recycling 3 times. Those rewards turned out to be practically the same in terms of pulls from LT and CP (using the No Feeder).

    So, you don’t get fewer rewards when ascending 2 x 4 * max champs, but you do miss the 5* covers / shards if it’s a feeder. So, what’s better? A higher level 4* or those 5 * shards?

    Don’t analyze it strictly from the 3:1 or 4:1 cover/level ratio. If you wait to ascend with 2 max champs you get a boost of free levels and rewards in the next tier. What’s insane is getting to the point where 4 x 1 * covers gives you a 5* champ reward.

  • bbigler
    bbigler Posts: 2,111 Chairperson of the Boards

    To save slots, you could hoard tokens so that when you open them you have enough covers to ascend 1s and 2s to level 3. Then you build, over time, those 3 * and 4 * versions.

  • ArchusMonk
    ArchusMonk Posts: 211 Tile Toppler

    @meadowsweet said:
    So I've probably screwed up my maths somewhere, but I was trying to work out how many total covers (or shard equivalents) it would take in order to level up a character all the way to 550:

    5★: 113 covers
    (straightforward: 13 covers to champ, 100 covers to max champ)

    4★: 526 covers
    (13+113=126 4★ Binding, 1x4x100=400 5★ Ascension)

    3★: 952 covers
    (2x13+2x113=252 3★ Bindings, 1x3x100=300 4★ Ascension, 1x4x100=400 5★ Ascension)

    2★: 1,404 covers
    (4x13+4x63=304 2★ Bindings, 2x2x100=400 3★ Ascensions, 1x3x100=300 4★ Ascension, 1x4x100=400 5★ Ascension)

    1★ (3 Powers): 1,508 covers
    (16x13=208 1★ Bindings, 4x1x50=200 2★ Ascensions, 2x2x100=400 3★ Ascensions, 1x3x100=300 4★ Ascension, 1x4x100=400 5★ Ascension)

    1★ (2 Powers): 1,460 covers
    (16x10=160 1★ Bindings, 4x1x50=200 2★ Ascensions, 2x2x100=400 3★ Ascensions, 1x3x100=300 4★ Ascension, 1x4x100=400 5★ Ascension)

    [Legend: "4x1x50=200 2★ Ascensions" means you have to upgrade (4) characters at an 'exchange rate' of (1) cover per level through (50) total levels, at a cost of (200) covers.]

    It is odd that the 'exchange rate' at the 5★ tier is 4 covers per 1 level, regardless of whether you're talking about a 4★ character or a 2★ character. Given how much more common 2★ covers are than 4★ covers (and the fact that they're divided amongst many fewer 2★ characters), a 2★ character will fly from level 450 to level 550 in a tiny fraction of the time that it will take the 4★ character.

    Anyway, feel free to let me know what I got wrong!

    1* (3 Powers) should be 1908 covers
    16x13=208 to make 16 max 1*. 8 bindings produces 8 2* level 94 x 50 level each = 400 covers to make 8x max 2*. 4 max bindings produces 4 3* level 191 x 75 more levels each x 2 covers per level = 600 covers to make 4x max 3*. 2 max bindings produces 2 4* level 303 + 1 extra cover x 66 2/3 more levels each x 3 covers per level = 400 covers to make 2x max 4*. 1 max binding produces a 5* level 475 x 75 more levels x 4 covers per level = 300 covers. Total = 1908 covers.

    2* should be 1804 covers
    8x63=504 to make 8 max 2*. 4 max bindings produces 4 3* level 191 x 75 more levels each x 2 covers per level = 600 covers to make 4 max 3*. 2 max bindings produces 2 4* level 303 + 1 extra cover x 66 2/3 more levels each x 3 covers per level = 400 covers to make 2x max 4*. 1 max binding produces a 5* level 475 x 75 more levels x 4 covers per level = 300 covers. Total = 1804 covers.

    3* should be 1152 covers
    4x113=452 covers to make 4 max 3*. 2 max bindings produces 2 4* level 303 + 1 extra cover x 66 2/3 more levels each x 3 covers per level = 400 covers to make 2x max 4*. 1 max binding produces a 5* level 475 x 75 more levels x 4 covers per level = 300 covers. Total = 1152 covers.

  • primetime21
    primetime21 Posts: 90 Match Maker

    I'm not sure if I missed this somewhere but do we know the second group will drop? I just fully champed my 2nd Nova--they're not in the first group eligible; I'm wondering if I should wait until I see if they're in the second group. Usually I would sell one but if it will be a month or something like that I'll probably hold on to both.

  • sambrookjm
    sambrookjm Posts: 2,166 Chairperson of the Boards

    So is this similar to the changes that will be taking place with Supports next year?

  • KenshinUK
    KenshinUK Posts: 91 Match Maker

    This new feature sounds pretty good, I and my near 1300 standard packs, look forward to it!

  • Kolence
    Kolence Posts: 969 Critical Contributor

    @ArchusMonk said:

    @meadowsweet said:
    So I've probably screwed up my maths somewhere, but I was trying to work out how many total covers (or shard equivalents) it would take in order to level up a character all the way to 550:

    5★: 113 covers
    (straightforward: 13 covers to champ, 100 covers to max champ)

    4★: 526 covers
    (13+113=126 4★ Binding, 1x4x100=400 5★ Ascension)

    3★: 952 covers
    (2x13+2x113=252 3★ Bindings, 1x3x100=300 4★ Ascension, 1x4x100=400 5★ Ascension)

    2★: 1,404 covers
    (4x13+4x63=304 2★ Bindings, 2x2x100=400 3★ Ascensions, 1x3x100=300 4★ Ascension, 1x4x100=400 5★ Ascension)

    1★ (3 Powers): 1,508 covers
    (16x13=208 1★ Bindings, 4x1x50=200 2★ Ascensions, 2x2x100=400 3★ Ascensions, 1x3x100=300 4★ Ascension, 1x4x100=400 5★ Ascension)

    1★ (2 Powers): 1,460 covers
    (16x10=160 1★ Bindings, 4x1x50=200 2★ Ascensions, 2x2x100=400 3★ Ascensions, 1x3x100=300 4★ Ascension, 1x4x100=400 5★ Ascension)

    [Legend: "4x1x50=200 2★ Ascensions" means you have to upgrade (4) characters at an 'exchange rate' of (1) cover per level through (50) total levels, at a cost of (200) covers.]

    It is odd that the 'exchange rate' at the 5★ tier is 4 covers per 1 level, regardless of whether you're talking about a 4★ character or a 2★ character. Given how much more common 2★ covers are than 4★ covers (and the fact that they're divided amongst many fewer 2★ characters), a 2★ character will fly from level 450 to level 550 in a tiny fraction of the time that it will take the 4★ character.

    Anyway, feel free to let me know what I got wrong!

    1* (3 Powers) should be 1908 covers
    16x13=208 to make 16 max 1*. 8 bindings produces 8 2* level 94 x 50 level each = 400 covers to make 8x max 2*. 4 max bindings produces 4 3* level 191 x 75 more levels each x 2 covers per level = 600 covers to make 4x max 3*. 2 max bindings produces 2 4* level 303 + 1 extra cover x 66 2/3 more levels each x 3 covers per level = 400 covers to make 2x max 4*. 1 max binding produces a 5* level 475 x 75 more levels x 4 covers per level = 300 covers. Total = 1908 covers.

    2* should be 1804 covers
    8x63=504 to make 8 max 2*. 4 max bindings produces 4 3* level 191 x 75 more levels each x 2 covers per level = 600 covers to make 4 max 3*. 2 max bindings produces 2 4* level 303 + 1 extra cover x 66 2/3 more levels each x 3 covers per level = 400 covers to make 2x max 4*. 1 max binding produces a 5* level 475 x 75 more levels x 4 covers per level = 300 covers. Total = 1804 covers.

    3* should be 1152 covers
    4x113=452 covers to make 4 max 3*. 2 max bindings produces 2 4* level 303 + 1 extra cover x 66 2/3 more levels each x 3 covers per level = 400 covers to make 2x max 4*. 1 max binding produces a 5* level 475 x 75 more levels x 4 covers per level = 300 covers. Total = 1152 covers.

    I think you're both right, if everything works like we think atm :)
    It's just the older quote is leveling 1 copy to max champ and the other to base champ level, in order to ascend to the next tier. At each tier...
    The newer quote looks like leveling 2 copies to max champ and then merging them. Which gives even better overall returns per 1* cover... :)
    It's clear that farming will be even better, with 1*s now. But what's funny to me, is it's best returns to sell at max champ 4-stars, for "flipping" a character in the farm. At least in terms of Iso-8. Just shows how expensive 4-stars have remained all these years (3-stars cost to champ got reduced long ago...)
    Also, up to max champ 3-star, it's the same total number of covers (302), whether you max champ both 2-stars or just one.
    At max champ 4-star, it would take extra 200 covers, but you again double dip on 3-star champ rewards. :)

  • Blackstone
    Blackstone Posts: 603 Critical Contributor

    Lots of math....
    And figuring out the math is valid...
    But I think I care less about rewards math, and more about usability of the characters, which includes how fun they are to play.

    If an ascended 2* Storm (randomly chosen) has great synergy/usefulness/fun playability at the 3, 4, or 5* tier, then she's worth elevating.

    Of course, we won't know who is worth the effort until people get characters elevated and we start seeing how they play.

    It's entirely possible certain characters will be a great fit when ascended (a 2 becoming a 3 for example)... But suck when ascended again (the same character becoming a 4) so every character will need a different rating at each higher level.

    But that's not even objective. Meta characters are meta for a reason. Beyond that personal tastes matters. Those who only use characters that provide the fastest/easiest wins might disagree with that, but that only proves my point. Different people value different things.

    I find 5* Mags (just a personal example) more fun than most meta characters and I use him a fair amount. I'm not at the top of any rankings... But what's the point of being at the top if you're not enjoying getting there... Again, just my opinion.

    Anyway, I'm not saying anyone is wrong (and I'm still interested in seeing the math) I'm just saying there's more to consider.

    My 4's are champed, but I don't see me being able to champ 4* dupes anytime soon.

    I'll likely hit the 1's and 2's hard initially and hope I find fun combinations on the way.

  • ArchusMonk
    ArchusMonk Posts: 211 Tile Toppler

    3* Ascending vs. Farming

    I'm going to go through the math of the benefits of Ascending vs farming then selling 3* max champs. Please feel free to correct any typos or errors.

    The math is going to assume 3* non-feeders to make value comparisons easier. The difference in rewards between feeders and non-feeders is roughly 3 4* cover equivalents in exchange for 3 HT, 2 MT, and 2 CT, which is a minimal difference in my opinion.

    My math will also assume that you max champ every character before binding them because why would you want to miss out on any rewards?

    Each 3* level 266 costs 119,919 ISO and requires 113 covers. The champion rewards are 57,500 ISO8, 650 HP, 37 CP, 5 HT, 4 MT, 2 CT, and 5 LT, so the net rewards of producing a 3* level 266 are -62,419 ISO8, 650 HP, 37 CP, 5 HT, 4 MT, 2 CT, and 5 LT.

    2 3* level 266 are required to Ascend to 4*, so the balance sheet is -124,838 ISO8, 1300 HP, 74 CP, 10 HT, 8 MT, 4 CT, and 10 LT.
    Ascending 2x 3* level 266 produces a 4* level 303 + 1 saved cover (the 4* level 270 produced by 3* 266 + 3* 166 + 100 extra covers/3 covers per level at 4*).

    Selling a max champ 3* nets you 105,000 ISO8 and 500 HP, so the net rewards for farming a max champ 3* are 42,581 ISO8, 1150 HP, 37 CP, 5 HT, 4 MT, 2 CT, and 5 LT, so if you had sold the 2 max champ 3* instead, you would have 85,162 ISO8, 2300 HP, 74 CP, 10 HT, 8 MT, 4 CT, and 10 LT. At this stage, the difference between selling your 2 max champ 3* and Ascending them is -210,000 ISO8 (-124,838 - 85,162) and -1000 HP (1300-2300). NOTE: For simplicity, I am ignoring the champ rewards you would have so far from the 33 4* champ levels since they will be counted in the next step.

    You need 200 (66 2/3 more levels x 3) more covers to produce a 4 star level 370. The champion rewards for 100 levels (some of which you got as retro rewards on Ascent) are 112,500 ISO8, 4000 HP, 250 CP, and 10 LT, but you could have used those 200 covers to farm 1 more max champ 3 star and had 87 covers left over. As noted above, that max champ 3 star sold would have produced 42,581 ISO8, 1150 HP, 37 CP, 5 HT, 4 MT, 2 CT, and 5 LT AND you'd have 87 3 star covers left over. At this stage, the difference between having an Ascended 4 star level 370 vs. farming all those covers and selling the max champs is -140,081 ISO8 (-210,000 from prior stage + 112,500 champ rewards - 42,581 for not farming), 1850 HP (-1000 from prior stage + 4000 from champ rewards - 1150 for missed rewards from farming), 213 CP (250 champ rewards - 37 for missed rewards from farming), -5 HT, -4 MT, -2 CT, 5 LT (10 champ rewards - 5 for missed rewards from farming), and -87 leftover covers.

    2 4* level 370 are required to Ascend to 5*, so the balance sheet is -280,162 ISO8, 3700 HP, 416 CP, -10 HT, -8 MT, -4 CT, 10 LT, and -174 leftover covers.
    Ascending 2x 4* level 370 produces a 5* level 475 (the 5* level 450 produced by 4* 370 + 4* 270 + 100 extra levels/4 covers per level at 5*).
    You need 300 (75 more levels x4) more covers to produce a 5 star level 550. The champion rewards for 100 levels (some of which you got as retro rewards on Ascent) are 220,000 ISO8, 20,000 HP, 625 CP, and 25 LT, but you could have used those 300 covers (+174 leftover covers) to farm 4 more max champ 3 star and had 22 covers left over. As noted above, those 4 max champ 3 star sold would have produced 170,324 ISO8, 4600 HP, 148 CP, 20 HT, 16 MT, 8 CT, and 20 LT AND you'd have 22 3 star covers left over. At this stage, the difference between having an Ascended 5 star level 550 vs. farming all those covers and selling the max champs is -230,486 ISO8 (-280,162 from prior stage + 220,000 champ rewards -170,324 missed rewards from farming), 11,700 HP (3700 from prior stage + 20000 from champ rewards - 4600 for missed rewards from farming), 893 CP (416 from prior stage + 625 champ rewards - 148 for missed rewards from farming), -30 HT (-10 from prior stage - 20 for missed rewards from farming), -24 MT (-8 from prior stage - 16 from missed rewards for not farming), -12 CT (-4 from prior stage -8 from missed rewards for not farming), 30 LT (10 from prior stage +25 champ rewards -5 missed rewards from farming), and -22 leftover covers.

    Your total rewards for bringing a 3* to 5* 550 (instead of farming all the covers) are -230,486 ISO8, 11,700 HP, 893 CP, -30 HT, -24 MT, -12 CT, 30 LT, and -22 leftover 3* covers. These numbers are closer, but I'd say Ascending is still favored on balance from a strictly resource perspective.

    Please check my math and numbers. Champ rewards were obtained from the spreadsheet linked in the first post. Thanks

  • Pantera236
    Pantera236 Posts: 528 Critical Contributor
    edited September 2023

    There's only 2 iirc 3* non feeders so might've been better to use either single feeder or double feeder, probably double as I think most are now

    Edit to say it's only 2 that are SINGLE feeders, there are 0 non feeders

  • Kolence
    Kolence Posts: 969 Critical Contributor

    @Pantera236 said:
    There's only 2 iirc 3* non feeders so might've been better to use either single feeder or double feeder, probably double as I think most are now

    Edit to say it's only 2 that are SINGLE feeders, there are 0 non feeders

    Yes, two recent ones (Spider-Rex and Vulture) have missed having a secondary 4-star fed. All the rest have been updated to having double 4-star fed in the last big update.

    The difference in champ rewards is 10k Iso-8 for the 600 secondary 4-star shards.

    That only matters if looking at starting from 3-star covers, though. If ascending 1-star and 2-star, the "not a feeder" table is the right one to look at.

    BTW, I'm currently out of Iso-8, halfway or so? (haven't counted in a while) building the 4-star dupes of 370's, after beeing "post Iso" for years and reaching some 5 million or so maximum in Iso-8 reserves for a while. It started going down even faster since adding the new 3-star releases.

    I hope farming 1-stars is not the only answer the devs are planning on, to help with this issue. Because they are the only ones being purely Iso-8 positive through all this juggling. Other champ rewards are great, and more so as the tiers go higher, but it's all moot if we're all bottlenecked again with Iso, as in the old times... :D

  • Bad
    Bad Posts: 3,146 Chairperson of the Boards

    One thing is for sure, now if spider 1* can ascend to 5* tier, we will have a decent spiderman in 5*.
    Also a decent Gwen in 5*, thanks to 3* or 4* version.

  • rainkingucd
    rainkingucd Posts: 1,433 Chairperson of the Boards

    @Bad said:
    One thing is for sure, now if spider 1* can ascend to 5* tier, we will have a decent spiderman in 5*.
    Also a decent Gwen in 5*, thanks to 3* or 4* version.

    I think Gwenom will be good too in the tier with ascended 4* Miles and Spidey 2099. That's how I ran her in her featured events and with just 4* she was great. With 5* partners adding more health and actual abilities should be solid

  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,471 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited September 2023

    Something else I think these evaluations don’t look like they are accounting for is that the 5* reward tree are basically like the last 4 levels of a max champ 4 star just over and over, so the 5k iso one is going to be the only bummer. So imagine you use a 13 cover unchamped dupe to make a 450.

    The first four levels of a champ 4* are:
    LT
    2CP
    2500 iso
    2CP

    Compared to 4:1
    LT

    Then:
    50hp
    2CP
    2500 iso
    2CP

    Compared to 4:1
    5000 iso

    Then:
    50hp
    LT/Cover
    2500 iso
    3cp

    Compared to 4:1
    25cp

    Then:
    50hp
    3cp
    2500 iso
    3cp

    Compared to 4:1
    250 hp

    So the first 29 levels (base 13 covers + 16) work out to:
    4* dupe
    1x LT/1 cover or 2x lt
    150hp
    7500 iso
    13cp

    And 5* jump up:
    1x LT
    5k iso
    25cp
    250 hp

    So you’re down a little iso, and up on HP and CP to go with ascendant at lower (more achievable) champ levels. 5* rewards do step up a few times when you get closer to the 500s. Whether you want to go that route is up to you of course.

  • Aweberman
    Aweberman Posts: 443 Mover and Shaker

    Sorry in advance, because I'm sure this has been covered, but when I last looked at this thread there were only five pages...

    True or false: It is better to Ascend a character with a max-champed version than with a newly-champed version.

    To use a specific example: If I'm ascending Psylocke, I should use 2 level 266 copies rather than 1 level 266 and 1 level 166. The reason for this is that each 3-star cover (or equivalent number of shards) grants 3-star champion rewards, but you need 4 such covers/sets of shards to get the 4-star champion rewards ... and you will get those anyway once you ascend the character.

    Exception: It may be worth it to forego the lower-tier champion rewards in the above scenario if you would prefer to have the higher-level character sooner.

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