***** Vulture (Armor Wars) *****

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Comments

  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,342 Chairperson of the Boards

    Or maybe it will be like Metal Gear Solid 3 and the sniper battle with The End where if you still haven't won after several hours you can cheat. "If Vulture is still airborne after 14 hours, Vulture lands - please note when Vulture is not airborne he goes airborne"

  • GJSchaller
    GJSchaller Posts: 21 Just Dropped In

    Are there any counters for opponents being Airborne, other than Elsa and 5* She Hulk? It's already frustrating when 4* Vulture begins his Airborne loop, and I can see this getting really nasty with a self-res combo when one member is always airborne (untouchable) and the other two just keep getting back up.

  • bbigler
    bbigler Posts: 2,111 Chairperson of the Boards

    @Daredevil217 It’s OK to evaluate a character before release; I’ve done that myself, but we should always compare to other characters in the game for a fair evaluation (which you do).

    As for 5* batteries, Gladiator Thor still works very well and Mighty Thor is good too but random. Unfortunately, Vulture’s AP battery is an active and not really a passive power, so you would have to collect blue or purple first and then wait 2 turns.

    In PVE, you could use supports to start with purple and go airborne on turn 1. You could also use 4*Scorpion to passively generate purple from goon CD tiles.

    He’s a useful character, but we need to play him before really knowing how useful.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,963 Chairperson of the Boards

    @GJSchaller said:
    Are there any counters for opponents being Airborne, other than Elsa and 5* She Hulk? It's already frustrating when 4* Vulture begins his Airborne loop, and I can see this getting really nasty with a self-res combo when one member is always airborne (untouchable) and the other two just keep getting back up.

    Hopefully the self-resurrection combo is going away someday soon? Maybe?

    I agree that this sounds like an absolute nightmare to fight. Do remember, though, they gave us Moondragon, and made us deal with one "cannot be damaged" character + two "cannot ever die" characters on the same team.

  • Daredevil217
    Daredevil217 Posts: 3,988 Chairperson of the Boards

    @GJSchaller said:
    Are there any counters for opponents being Airborne, other than Elsa and 5* She Hulk? It's already frustrating when 4* Vulture begins his Airborne loop, and I can see this getting really nasty with a self-res combo when one member is always airborne (untouchable) and the other two just keep getting back up.

    Archangel, who just got buffed. HARD counter for Vulture because it’s a passive.

    @bbigler said:
    @Daredevil217 It’s OK to evaluate a character before release; I’ve done that myself, but we should always compare to other characters in the game for a fair evaluation (which you do).

    As for 5* batteries, Gladiator Thor still works very well and Mighty Thor is good too but random. Unfortunately, Vulture’s AP battery is an active and not really a passive power, so you would have to collect blue or purple first and then wait 2 turns.

    In PVE, you could use supports to start with purple and go airborne on turn 1. You could also use 4*Scorpion to passively generate purple from goon CD tiles.

    He’s a useful character, but we need to play him before really knowing how useful.

    I tend to overrate characters on paper I think. Gargantos and Kamala aren’t as nearly as good as I thought upon release as an example. Vulture might be the same. I have him as a top 15 character, which might be crazy. I think you are right in that OG Vulture’s airborne was self-sustaining in that his black netted black. This Vulture does not gen purple with purple so he might take flight less frequently. I do love that he has two airborne abilities though and like the OG can benefit whenever he lands from airborne.

  • BriMan2222
    BriMan2222 Posts: 1,328 Chairperson of the Boards

    @Daredevil217 said:

    @bbigler said:
    @Daredevil217 If his dmg boost was 100%, then it would double his AOE, but since it’s 175% it’s the same as multiplying by 2.75. Also, Vulture generates 7 AP at max level, not 8 AP.

    So, his AOE does 5,342 x 2.75 = 14,690. The dmg per AP equals 14,690 x 3 = 44,071 / 14 AP = 3,147 dmg / AP, which is very good.

    His single hit green does 16,016 for 7 AP which equals 2,288 dmg / AP, which is average for the tier.

    If you pair him with Apocalypse and use his Yellow to boost Vulture’s AOE, then which boost takes effect first? If it’s Vulture’s, then his AOE is around 23K, if it’s Apocalypse, then his AOE is around 39K.

    If the math on this is correct, that’s insane. I might respec to 5 green if so. I had a whole write up on how the power is amazing because you can either use it as a single target nuke and save the AP for others, or make him your primary attacker and use the AP yourself. Then I did the incorrect math and erased what I wrote. It sounds like the power does function in that way I hoped where Vulture can slide into either role depending on needs.

    To whoever said it’s ballsy to do a writeup before the character is even in the game, I’ve done it before. I’m constantly changing my guide. This is a great example of something I’ll edit. It’s not like I’m being audited or some whale is going to sue me because they spent thousands on Vulture and he wasn’t as good as I theorized.

    Don't be so sure about that not being able to sue you part. If players can sue the devs for nerfs, I bet they can sue you for this too

  • KGB
    KGB Posts: 3,277 Chairperson of the Boards

    @Daredevil217 said:

    @GJSchaller said:
    Are there any counters for opponents being Airborne, other than Elsa and 5* She Hulk? It's already frustrating when 4* Vulture begins his Airborne loop, and I can see this getting really nasty with a self-res combo when one member is always airborne (untouchable) and the other two just keep getting back up.

    Archangel, who just got buffed. HARD counter for Vulture because it’s a passive.

    He's only a hard counter if Vulture uses his Purple to go airborne. If he uses his Blue, he can drag Archangel with him and in that case I don't believe his passive will work because he is airborne and passives don't work in that state unless explicitly stated.

    KGB

  • Punisher5784
    Punisher5784 Posts: 3,845 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited August 2023

    @entrailbucket said:

    @GJSchaller said:
    Are there any counters for opponents being Airborne, other than Elsa and 5* She Hulk? It's already frustrating when 4* Vulture begins his Airborne loop, and I can see this getting really nasty with a self-res combo when one member is always airborne (untouchable) and the other two just keep getting back up.

    Hopefully the self-resurrection combo is going away someday soon? Maybe?

    I agree that this sounds like an absolute nightmare to fight. Do remember, though, they gave us Moondragon, and made us deal with one "cannot be damaged" character + two "cannot ever die" characters on the same team.

    Now that you mention Moondragon.. if I paired her with 4* Vulture and Ikaris, and they're both airborne, where does the damage to Moondragon go? Technically she's not alone

  • bbigler
    bbigler Posts: 2,111 Chairperson of the Boards

    @KGB said:

    @Daredevil217 said:

    @GJSchaller said:
    Are there any counters for opponents being Airborne, other than Elsa and 5* She Hulk? It's already frustrating when 4* Vulture begins his Airborne loop, and I can see this getting really nasty with a self-res combo when one member is always airborne (untouchable) and the other two just keep getting back up.

    Archangel, who just got buffed. HARD counter for Vulture because it’s a passive.

    He's only a hard counter if Vulture uses his Purple to go airborne. If he uses his Blue, he can drag Archangel with him and in that case I don't believe his passive will work because he is airborne and passives don't work in that state unless explicitly stated.

    KGB

    Thematically, AA should be functional even if Vulture takes him airborne. That would be appropriate, counter airborne with airborne.

  • bbigler
    bbigler Posts: 2,111 Chairperson of the Boards

    Here’s a team: 5*Vulture + Gwenpool + Throg. Vulture produces Black for Gwenpool to send her allies airborne and Yellow for Throg to send his team airborne.

  • KGB
    KGB Posts: 3,277 Chairperson of the Boards

    @bbigler said:

    @KGB said:

    @Daredevil217 said:

    @GJSchaller said:
    Are there any counters for opponents being Airborne, other than Elsa and 5* She Hulk? It's already frustrating when 4* Vulture begins his Airborne loop, and I can see this getting really nasty with a self-res combo when one member is always airborne (untouchable) and the other two just keep getting back up.

    Archangel, who just got buffed. HARD counter for Vulture because it’s a passive.

    He's only a hard counter if Vulture uses his Purple to go airborne. If he uses his Blue, he can drag Archangel with him and in that case I don't believe his passive will work because he is airborne and passives don't work in that state unless explicitly stated.

    KGB

    Thematically, AA should be functional even if Vulture takes him airborne. That would be appropriate, counter airborne with airborne.

    It might. But that would run counter to all other passives which do not function when a character is airborne. So my guess is that it does not function if Vulture drags him along when he goes airborne.

    KGB

  • Borstock
    Borstock Posts: 2,744 Chairperson of the Boards

    @bbigler said:
    Here’s a team: 5*Vulture + Gwenpool + Throg. Vulture produces Black for Gwenpool to send her allies airborne and Yellow for Throg to send his team airborne.

    That's just gross.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,963 Chairperson of the Boards

    @Borstock said:

    @bbigler said:
    Here’s a team: 5*Vulture + Gwenpool + Throg. Vulture produces Black for Gwenpool to send her allies airborne and Yellow for Throg to send his team airborne.

    That's just gross.

    Eh, unboosted Gwenpool/Throg will die to match damage before they can do much of anything.

    The interaction with Moondragon should be interesting, but I imagine it'll be bugged in some hilarious way.

  • Borstock
    Borstock Posts: 2,744 Chairperson of the Boards

    @entrailbucket said:

    @Borstock said:

    @bbigler said:
    Here’s a team: 5*Vulture + Gwenpool + Throg. Vulture produces Black for Gwenpool to send her allies airborne and Yellow for Throg to send his team airborne.

    That's just gross.

    Eh, unboosted Gwenpool/Throg will die to match damage before they can do much of anything.

    The interaction with Moondragon should be interesting, but I imagine it'll be bugged in some hilarious way.

    True. I just loathe the idea of an airborne meta.

  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,470 Chairperson of the Boards

    There are no good purple batteries that can hang at the 5* tier, so you’ll still have to collect it to keep him airborne that way.

  • MoosePrime
    MoosePrime Posts: 969 Critical Contributor

    @Punisher5784 said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    @GJSchaller said:
    Are there any counters for opponents being Airborne, other than Elsa and 5* She Hulk? It's already frustrating when 4* Vulture begins his Airborne loop, and I can see this getting really nasty with a self-res combo when one member is always airborne (untouchable) and the other two just keep getting back up.

    Hopefully the self-resurrection combo is going away someday soon? Maybe?

    I agree that this sounds like an absolute nightmare to fight. Do remember, though, they gave us Moondragon, and made us deal with one "cannot be damaged" character + two "cannot ever die" characters on the same team.

    Now that you mention Moondragon.. if I paired her with 4* Vulture and Ikaris, and they're both airborne, where does the damage to Moondragon go? Technically she's not alone

    She takes the damage.

  • Grizwald
    Grizwald Posts: 130 Tile Toppler

    @ThaRoadWarrior said:
    You could probably test that scenario with Emma or Switch with apocalypse. I feel like we worked that out one time, or we might even have been told explicitly, but don't recall the equation order of operations.

    *edit
    looks like I already performed that test in Emma's release thread. Here is the order of operations that I came up with:

    Base Damage + ( % of Base Damage * N {wanda/emma type boosting, where N is the amount of additional percent added conditionally} ) + Discreet # based Boost {Okoye/Apocalypse type boost} + Strike Total = Final Damage

    https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/87440/emma-frost-phoenix-five/p6

    If you have several percent boosts happening, do they all get mathed together or separately? I have 5* Emma and 5* Magik on a team. Is Magik boosted by (70%+2%per red+15%) or (70%)(2%per red)(15%)?

  • Bad
    Bad Posts: 3,146 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited August 2023

    He will be a helpful battery, yes. He will be annoying to fight, yes. But.
    I hinted it before and now I'll say it: he is slow. So that is the opposite of what the best rewarding modes require.
    It's a perfect character for 4* players and for not competitive attackers, maybe a good deterrent once chasm bitten the dust at last.
    But not the breaking hoard character many want.

  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,470 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited August 2023

    @Grizwald said:

    @ThaRoadWarrior said:
    You could probably test that scenario with Emma or Switch with apocalypse. I feel like we worked that out one time, or we might even have been told explicitly, but don't recall the equation order of operations.

    *edit
    looks like I already performed that test in Emma's release thread. Here is the order of operations that I came up with:

    Base Damage + ( % of Base Damage * N {wanda/emma type boosting, where N is the amount of additional percent added conditionally} ) + Discreet # based Boost {Okoye/Apocalypse type boost} + Strike Total = Final Damage

    https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/87440/emma-frost-phoenix-five/p6

    If you have several percent boosts happening, do they all get mathed together or separately? I have 5* Emma and 5* Magik on a team. Is Magik boosted by (70%+2%per red+15%) or (70%)(2%per red)(15%)?

    Those variables get replaced by whatever boost is highest, they don’t stack. Same with shared strength/Wakanda forever - you get shared strength until WF overtakes it, then you get that if you play them together.

    Well, Wanda and Emma don’t stack, I haven’t tested them with Magik

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