I don't see Heimdall or Captain Marvel as great pairs because their airborne abilities only work when they send Vulture airborne I believe (at least Captain Marvel's does not, just tested it).
I do like Archangel paired with him as that passive damage will add up fast. My third Nova or Black Cat, two characters who can cheaply throw guys airborne and letting Archangel punish them and enemy team will have trouble if two of their three characters are constantly useless.
Meh. His battery is slow. Another 5star version where the 4star is superior.
If his blue had a passive -“Birdo can fire powers and make matches while airborne”, then he’d be a factor.
Also, his green shouldn’t disable Airborne. Being up in the sky, raining death down would be far more interesting if you could fire it multiple times.
@ThaRoadWarrior said: @Grizwald said: @ThaRoadWarrior said: You could probably test that scenario with Emma or Switch with apocalypse. I feel like we worked that out one time, or we might even have been told explicitly, but don't recall the equation order of operations. *edit looks like I already performed that test in Emma's release thread. Here is the order of operations that I came up with: Base Damage + ( % of Base Damage * N {wanda/emma type boosting, where N is the amount of additional percent added conditionally} ) + Discreet # based Boost {Okoye/Apocalypse type boost} + Strike Total = Final Damage https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/87440/emma-frost-phoenix-five/p6 If you have several percent boosts happening, do they all get mathed together or separately? I have 5* Emma and 5* Magik on a team. Is Magik boosted by (70%+2%per red+15%) or (70%)(2%per red)(15%)? Those variables get replaced by whatever boost is highest, they don’t stack. Same with shared strength/Wakanda forever - you get shared strength until WF overtakes it, then you get that if you play them together. Well, Wanda and Emma don’t stack, I haven’t tested them with Magik
@ThaRoadWarrior said:
@Grizwald said: @ThaRoadWarrior said: You could probably test that scenario with Emma or Switch with apocalypse. I feel like we worked that out one time, or we might even have been told explicitly, but don't recall the equation order of operations. *edit looks like I already performed that test in Emma's release thread. Here is the order of operations that I came up with: Base Damage + ( % of Base Damage * N {wanda/emma type boosting, where N is the amount of additional percent added conditionally} ) + Discreet # based Boost {Okoye/Apocalypse type boost} + Strike Total = Final Damage https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/87440/emma-frost-phoenix-five/p6 If you have several percent boosts happening, do they all get mathed together or separately? I have 5* Emma and 5* Magik on a team. Is Magik boosted by (70%+2%per red+15%) or (70%)(2%per red)(15%)?
@Grizwald said:
@ThaRoadWarrior said: You could probably test that scenario with Emma or Switch with apocalypse. I feel like we worked that out one time, or we might even have been told explicitly, but don't recall the equation order of operations. *edit looks like I already performed that test in Emma's release thread. Here is the order of operations that I came up with: Base Damage + ( % of Base Damage * N {wanda/emma type boosting, where N is the amount of additional percent added conditionally} ) + Discreet # based Boost {Okoye/Apocalypse type boost} + Strike Total = Final Damage https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/87440/emma-frost-phoenix-five/p6
@ThaRoadWarrior said: You could probably test that scenario with Emma or Switch with apocalypse. I feel like we worked that out one time, or we might even have been told explicitly, but don't recall the equation order of operations.
*edit looks like I already performed that test in Emma's release thread. Here is the order of operations that I came up with:
Base Damage + ( % of Base Damage * N {wanda/emma type boosting, where N is the amount of additional percent added conditionally} ) + Discreet # based Boost {Okoye/Apocalypse type boost} + Strike Total = Final Damage
https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/87440/emma-frost-phoenix-five/p6
If you have several percent boosts happening, do they all get mathed together or separately? I have 5* Emma and 5* Magik on a team. Is Magik boosted by (70%+2%per red+15%) or (70%)(2%per red)(15%)?
Those variables get replaced by whatever boost is highest, they don’t stack. Same with shared strength/Wakanda forever - you get shared strength until WF overtakes it, then you get that if you play them together.
Well, Wanda and Emma don’t stack, I haven’t tested them with Magik
Just so I'm understanding, Emma will boost Magik's demons until the bonus from the demons is bigger. Is that correct?
I still believe that draining enemy AP is a bug. The whole design and damage amounts don’t make sense otherwise. Plus, many other characters have had bugs upon release, so I think their testing is minimal.
@Daredevil217 For your 5* ranking guide, keep in mind Gwenom’s maximum dmg output on red (3/5/5) - at level 450, it’s around 152K! A simple pairing with Miles and SM2099 would passively produce web tiles and AP for Gwenom, plus blue can be used by SM2099 for stuns. This is just a theoretically great team, I haven’t tried it.
@Warbringa said: I don't see Heimdall or Captain Marvel as great pairs because their airborne abilities only work when they send Vulture airborne I believe (at least Captain Marvel's does not, just tested it).
What does this mean, I’m confused?
@bbigler said: I still believe that draining enemy AP is a bug. The whole design and damage amounts don’t make sense otherwise. Plus, many other characters have had bugs upon release, so I think their testing is minimal. @Daredevil217 For your 5* ranking guide, keep in mind Gwenom’s maximum dmg output on red (3/5/5) - at level 450, it’s around 152K! A simple pairing with Miles and SM2099 would passively produce web tiles and AP for Gwenom, plus blue can be used by SM2099 for stuns. This is just a theoretically great team, I haven’t tried it.
@bbigler said: I still believe that draining enemy AP is a bug. The whole design and damage amounts don’t make sense otherwise. Plus, many other characters have had bugs upon release, so I think their testing is minimal.
I agree with the first statement. As for the second, I had Gwenom pretty low personally. I know her max damage is insane but it feels like it takes a lot to get there. You’re talking about bringing two 4*s for her to be effective. If I’m playing pick 3, there are so many better teams that can hit that damage number faster. It just feels like she needs a lot of support and doesn’t really have it in her own tier. She’s best utilized as a chasm counter because he brings the webs for you and you only need to worry about a battery or bring Kangers so you can get to 10 red faster. But we have quite a few red Chasm killing powers like Dino Venom and Monkey already. So the chasm killing red isn’t even unique to her. Gwen just feels like an awkward fit in the tier.
For me it only makes sense being a bug. "Full Throttle Blast - 7 Green AP Using the new Stark repulsor tech, Vulture unleashes a charge blast dealing 886 damage to the enemy team and destroying 3 random tiles. (Destroyed tiles deal damage but do not generate AP.) This ability drains up to 3 AP from among Yellow, Red, and Black, dealing 15% increased damage for each AP drained". We have already a character using high stark technology and draining all player AP: ironman hulkbuster.
Also in his purple it specifies "using his speed and cunning he steals AP". In this power's description never explains how he drains all that AP while supposedly gathering energy for the blast.
I have no idea why people are whining about vulture’s inability to “make matches while airborne” when about 95%-99% of the time he’s gonna be on a team. Hello!! The other characters will make the matches.
when teamed with Archangel, the damage from Vulture’s blue never happens. Archangel stuns the opponent while airborne at the beginning of the next turn. Then the Hostile Skies CD expires on turn 2. Then Vulture turns invisible.
seems to team better with 5* she-hulk. The damage she tacks on adds up decently. She doesn’t interfere with any of his powers and doesn’t mind taking hits while he’s airborne.
there is an intriguing amount of synergy with Vulture and Heimdall in relation to the AP gain. 4* vulture never gained any yellow to feed Heimdall but 5* vulture does when he lands. He also gives Heimdall 2 red AP as well. There is a ramping effect that goes on with the 2. I’ll be looking for a 3rd with them. She-hulk seems ok so far. But I’ll be looking for a better, more synergistic 3rd now.
Stealth Hunter generates red, yellow, black. None of those colors are Vulture's 3 strong colors. When I read the post, it seemed like Vulture is using return from airborne as a way to generate AP for Full Throttle Blast.
Full Throttle Blast should drains those colors on Vulture's team. It doesn't make sense for Vulture to generate AP potentially useless for his team while taking away AP from the enemy. Haven't we all had enough AP drain this last year?
Passive AP drain ruined a huge chunk of PvP this year.
@BlackBoltRocks said: They fixed Vulture’s Green, removing the “enemy” from the AP drain. So I assume it now drains friendly AP, which I believe was the original intention? Also, makes his build an easy 5/5/3.
Has anyone tested to be sure?
Vulture’s green still drains enemy AP despite the change in ability text.
@IrisRyu said: Vulture’s green still drains enemy AP despite the change in ability text.
Of course it does 🤣
@Daredevil217 We shouldn’t rank characters solely on their usefulness in PVP while paired with other 5*s. PVP is really a pick-2 game 99% of the time. Some characters are great in PVP, some are great in PVE and a very few are great in both. Some are great fun but not great to win, some are great but slow, most are great with good partners and some are great alone. So, how do you rank greatness then???
Kitty pairs great with 4Grocket, BRB pairs great with Polaris, Kang pairs great with Deathlok; but I don’t count that against them. I generally judge a character by their potential in the game, and I mean more than PVP. I have far more fun trying new teams in PVE than playing the same pick-2 fight-2 battles in PVP. So if a new 5 comes along that can kick butt in PVE, then I would call them great. If I need to use 4*s to bring out their greatness, that’s fine too (as long as I don’t use them as my PVP defensive team).
This is a serious question though, how should we rank a character? Perhaps there’s no standard ranking for all since people focus on different aspects of the game. Not everyone is competitive, but rankings are usually based on their “competitiveness”. Perhaps we should be ranking teams instead of individual characters. Should we rank Chasm #1, thus telling new players to chase after him even though they don’t have IHulk or She-Hulk? What’s the purpose of the ranking then?
Sorry for the long post and questions, but congratulations to anyone who has read this far. I think too many people judge solely on their own views and don’t consider everyone else’s view. No offense to you Daredevil.
Anyway, my assessment of Gwenom is that her potential is great, meaning she can hit well above her weight. I think she would be fun to play because she’s different and can nuke the entire enemy team in 1 shot. With the right partners and/or supports, she could be fast but she would also be easy on PVP defense. Can she beat Chasm & IHulk? You betcha - she may not be the best counter though but surely the Chasm meta won’t last forever either.
@Daredevil217 said: @Warbringa said: I don't see Heimdall or Captain Marvel as great pairs because their airborne abilities only work when they send Vulture airborne I believe (at least Captain Marvel's does not, just tested it). What does this mean, I’m confused?
@Daredevil217 said:
Simply saying you have to use their powers to send airborne to get their bonus airborne landing abilities, Vulture returning from airborne from his own power (blue or purple) doesn't trigger their useful airborne abilities. I think Vulture will mainly be returning airborne from you firing his powers instead of Heimdall/Captain Marvel in most matches. I think there may be better pairings with 5* Vulture, even though Heimdall/Marvel seem like good ones at first glance due to the airborne factor. I do think Heimdall pairs better than Marvel though for sure (and he is just a better character to begin with).
@bbigler said:@Daredevil217 We shouldn’t rank characters solely on their usefulness in PVP while paired with other 5*s. PVP is really a pick-2 game 99% of the time. Some characters are great in PVP, some are great in PVE and a very few are great in both. Some are great fun but not great to win, some are great but slow, most are great with good partners and some are great alone. So, how do you rank greatness then??? Kitty pairs great with 4Grocket, BRB pairs great with Polaris, Kang pairs great with Deathlok; but I don’t count that against them. I generally judge a character by their potential in the game, and I mean more than PVP. I have far more fun trying new teams in PVE than playing the same pick-2 fight-2 battles in PVP. So if a new 5 comes along that can kick butt in PVE, then I would call them great. If I need to use 4*s to bring out their greatness, that’s fine too (as long as I don’t use them as my PVP defensive team). This is a serious question though, how should we rank a character? Perhaps there’s no standard ranking for all since people focus on different aspects of the game. Not everyone is competitive, but rankings are usually based on their “competitiveness”. Perhaps we should be ranking teams instead of individual characters. Should we rank Chasm #1, thus telling new players to chase after him even though they don’t have IHulk or She-Hulk? What’s the purpose of the ranking then? Sorry for the long post and questions, but congratulations to anyone who has read this far. I think too many people judge solely on their own views and don’t consider everyone else’s view. No offense to you Daredevil. Anyway, my assessment of Gwenom is that her potential is great, meaning she can hit well above her weight. I think she would be fun to play because she’s different and can nuke the entire enemy team in 1 shot. With the right partners and/or supports, she could be fast but she would also be easy on PVP defense. Can she beat Chasm & IHulk? You betcha - she may not be the best counter though but surely the Chasm meta won’t last forever either.
@bbigler said:@Daredevil217 We shouldn’t rank characters solely on their usefulness in PVP while paired with other 5*s. PVP is really a pick-2 game 99% of the time. Some characters are great in PVP, some are great in PVE and a very few are great in both. Some are great fun but not great to win, some are great but slow, most are great with good partners and some are great alone. So, how do you rank greatness then???
I don’t know if you read the intro to my rankings guide but I actually answer the question around how I rank my characters and the rough criteria I use. I also make sure to state that it is just one person’s opinion and that everyone is going to value different things. So to say that “too many people judge on their own views” is 1) unfair and 2) seems to be what is happening in your post ironically. I hear your assessment of Gwen. I think it’s great that you like her. Someone else in the character thread on this forum made a post just to beg that they buff her because she is SO bad. I hear that too. I can consider others opinions and simply not agree. I can also be wrong when assessing and have been in the past. That doesn’t bother me. I don’t think she’s trash tier like that poster, but don’t think she’s OMG amazing either. She’s a fine character. There are just many many characters I think are better. They can’t all be top 20. That’s okay.
Entrail posits that you can’t really rank characters because there are just three tiers. Useful unboosted, useful boosted (95% of the character) and unuseful boosted. I actually agree with his assessment. The difference between a Deadpool and a Jean Grey and a Crystal is largely subjective. That said, those who “get it” when it comes to my guide, understand that it’s one perspective (I can’t exactly rank from your POV), and that the narrative writeup, team compositions, etc. is way more important than the actual number.
@Warbringa said: @Daredevil217 said: @Warbringa said: I don't see Heimdall or Captain Marvel as great pairs because their airborne abilities only work when they send Vulture airborne I believe (at least Captain Marvel's does not, just tested it). What does this mean, I’m confused? Simply saying you have to use their powers to send airborne to get their bonus airborne landing abilities, Vulture returning from airborne from his own power (blue or purple) doesn't trigger their useful airborne abilities. I think Vulture will mainly be returning airborne from you firing his powers instead of Heimdall/Captain Marvel in most matches. I think there may be better pairings with 5* Vulture, even though Heimdall/Marvel seem like good ones at first glance due to the airborne factor. I do think Heimdall pairs better than Marvel though for sure (and he is just a better character to begin with).
@Warbringa said:
Okay. Yes I knew this. Vulture will collect AP whenever he returns from airborne status- it doesn’t matter if it’s from his own powers or someone else. Those two just give another color for him to go airborne with (yellow). Basically Vulture benefits from what they do because of his passive. I did not expect the reverse to be true. The only way that Vulture benefits them is generating red/yellow when he goes airborne. But mostly he’s the one benefitting.
Beauty (greatness) is in the eye of the beholder. @Daredevil217 ’s guide is a commonly used jumping off point because it’s well-written, fun to read, contains deep game analysis, AND he updates it frequently as game conditions change and new characters are introduced.
There are probably some people that use his rankings as they come, but I think most people move various characters up or down based on their own gameplay or experiences or preferences.
Because I don’t play competitive PVP, my counter for Chasm is skip, so I personally rate the Chasm counters (besides Kang) much lower than most because I don’t need them. If you want to rate characters based on potential or on game conditions or partners that don’t currently exist, you should go for it. No one is stopping you.
Yeah, probably the least useful part of Daredevil's rankings post is the numerical rank. I'm not sure how he even does that part -- I can't think that way anymore.
In the days before boosted 5*, the numerical ranking mattered quite a bit, because they'd never change.
In a weekly boosted world, the "best" characters should all change every week. In practice, some are (unfortunately) useful even when they're not boosted, and some are never useful, even with the boost. The rest, and by far the majority, are worth using when boosted and not usable otherwise.
I was trying my best to avoid implying “my opinion is the correct one”. I don’t think that way and try to value other people’s opinions. This is a game and in most cases there is no right answer. When it comes to math, there is a right answer but everything else is subjective.
Who’s the best character? It depends on how you play, who you already have and what level you’re at in the game. I think the most useful ranking would be a team ranking instead. It would be ranked by how well they can handle a certain “situation”, such as speed or defense or countering tough enemies. But in trying to keep this on topic…
I like 5* Vulture, he could feed my 5* Gamora, but I wish I had Apoc to buff his AOE. I could feed him purple with my lvl 200 Quantum realm. Deathlok could also feed him blue and purple (since Vulture is a technologist). I don’t see him as a problem on PVP defense since I play Shang and normally collect blue and purple anyway. His green is cheap and could be a surprise punch in the face though. It would be fun to feed him tons of blue to take the entire enemy team airborne, while hitting them at the same time. I have Valkyrie and Melinda for that.
In comparison to the other latest 5s, I’m more interested in Gwenom & Omega, but I think Vulture would be fun to experiment with. Venom Rex is pretty bland to me, but he’ll get covered anyway because I’m chasing Gwenom. I’ll probably spend some CP on Vulture’s store next week, but not too much, maybe 10 or 20 pulls.