@jp1 said: @Bowgentle said: If you're not playing much PVP, Chasm is irrelevant to you, isn't he? I mean yes, he's fast in PVE during Thanos boost week, but that's it. I actually use him pretty regularly in PVE. I mean it won’t be devastating to my game since I have all current 5s champed, and I didn’t go all in on him. The issue I have though is the trend of every “OP” character being called out for a nerf. You remove enough tools and it starts getting hard to get the job done. Also IMO as hard as it is to reach this level of gameplay there shouldn’t be such a thing as OP. If you played something like Skyrim nonstop for six or more years do you think it would be balanced? At what point do you get to have powerful toons that aren’t just pretty good? God boost pretty much diversified the tier but outside of that, again IMO, there are more weak 5*s than strong. That’s just ridiculous given the time commitment and or financial commitment to reach that point in the game. Reworking PVP seems like a much more fair solution. I’m sure it’s much more work as well, but that’s how it goes sometimes when you are trying to do right for your customers.
@jp1 said:
@Bowgentle said: If you're not playing much PVP, Chasm is irrelevant to you, isn't he? I mean yes, he's fast in PVE during Thanos boost week, but that's it.
I actually use him pretty regularly in PVE. I mean it won’t be devastating to my game since I have all current 5s champed, and I didn’t go all in on him. The issue I have though is the trend of every “OP” character being called out for a nerf. You remove enough tools and it starts getting hard to get the job done.
Also IMO as hard as it is to reach this level of gameplay there shouldn’t be such a thing as OP. If you played something like Skyrim nonstop for six or more years do you think it would be balanced? At what point do you get to have powerful toons that aren’t just pretty good?
God boost pretty much diversified the tier but outside of that, again IMO, there are more weak 5*s than strong. That’s just ridiculous given the time commitment and or financial commitment to reach that point in the game.
Reworking PVP seems like a much more fair solution. I’m sure it’s much more work as well, but that’s how it goes sometimes when you are trying to do right for your customers.
The problem with that analogy is that Skyrim is a single player game that never gets updated and this is a competitive game with regular updates. If you want to build up a character so powerful that he wipes out npc bosses in one hit, no one is going to care except you.
In a game like this if you are a 6 year player who is trivially wiping out teams of other 6 year players, or 7 and 8 year players, because you have the one character in the game that is better than every other character in the game then that is a balance issue.
To make a more accurate analogy, imagine if someone spent 8 years grinding to get the very best of the best gear in World of warcraft and then you came along with 6 years of grinding and trivially destroyed that 8 year player because the newest weapon that was released is so OP that it one shots everything else in the game. That leads to a situation where you must use that new weapon or you are at a massive disadvantage to everyone who does, which is not only terribly unbalanced but also boring when everyone in the game is wielding the sword of 1000 truth's.
Just wanted to chime in on Magik re:perma damage.
I have her champed and can say, even boosted, I barely ever use her. Chasm stops her demons from forming. Thor destroys them constantly with no respawn. There obviously needs to be a way to remove them from the board as an opponent, but it shouldnt be SO easy. Even gambit will respawn his repeater... So as a previous poster said, just add the "if one DNE"
The only thing that makes any lick of difference is hit monkeys red. Though not technically perma damage, it can prevent respawn... And that is still a pretty hard ability to use in the meta. There needs to be some sort of tweak, not sure what it is, but perma damage is very much a non-factor in this game right now. I do like the idea of causing a respawn delay by X turns. It either needs to be a much higher value for damage, or take something meaningful away. We have Cosmo that can prevent a power from working next turn, why not have a power that prevents respawn or healing (or limits healing upon respawn) for a duration of time. Then, Magik's demons become super annoying for the meta.
People really don't remember how good PvP got before Chasm? Simulator was actually diverse back then.
@Borstock said: People really don't remember how good PvP got before Chasm? Simulator was actually diverse back then.
In fairness, there always seems to be a meta that dominates. Before Chasm, it was endless 5Witch/5Col/Something and before that it was iHulk/Okoye/Something. It wasn't super diverse. But what it was, was a meta of teams that were beatable without mirror matches. You could use something else and not take 45 minutes playing just for one win.
Yeah, I will never understand the "no nerfs ever" attitude that a whole bunch of MPQ players seem to have. Every competitive game nerfs. Every. Single. One.
If you say "no nerfs ever" what you're saying is that you expect them to get competitive balance absolutely right, the first time, every single time. There are massive, massive games, with budgets multiple times that of this one, with huge design and playtesting teams, that don't get it right the first time every time.
Designers make mistakes. They have to be allowed to fix those mistakes. Jubilee was clearly a mistake. Do you expect them to just leave that mistake in the game forever? There is no competitive game anywhere in existence that works that way.
Single player games can operate this way, but there is no single player mode in MPQ. In everything that's not DDQ or puzzle gauntlet you are competing with others, whether you like it or not.
I sympathise with any players like jp1 over this stuff but Chasm is like an endgame scenario in a game that doesn't have an endgame. Let's Be fair to the Devs - they have resisted doing this for a decent amount of time, probably because they realise Chasm will be tough to top in the many many ways he upsets us but even they have thrown in that towel now and maybe that will be a good thing and we might get a new meta who isn't actually anti-fun.
@entrailbucket said: Yeah, I will never understand the "no nerfs ever" attitude that a whole bunch of MPQ players seem to have. Every competitive game nerfs. Every. Single. One.
I think a lot of this stems from Demi who went WAY over board on every balancing Nerf they ever did. If they had just made minor adjustments until the character was in line, players wouldn't dread Nerfs so much. Demi truly put the NERF in Nerf.
KGB
@KGB said: @entrailbucket said: Yeah, I will never understand the "no nerfs ever" attitude that a whole bunch of MPQ players seem to have. Every competitive game nerfs. Every. Single. One. I think a lot of this stems from Demi who went WAY over board on every balancing Nerf they ever did. If they had just made minor adjustments until the character was in line, players wouldn't dread Nerfs so much. Demi truly put the NERF in Nerf. KGB
@KGB said:
This is part of it. Demiurge was always heavy-handed with nerfs, I think because they were terrified of having to go back and re-nerf a guy.
Also a factor -- I remember taking an informal survey a few years ago, and there are a lot of MPQ players who've never played any sort of multiplayer competitive game, who have no experience with how this stuff works anywhere else.
Another BIG part of it is the number of folks who really do view this as a single-player game.
@BriMan2222 said: @jp1 said: @Bowgentle said: If you're not playing much PVP, Chasm is irrelevant to you, isn't he? I mean yes, he's fast in PVE during Thanos boost week, but that's it. I actually use him pretty regularly in PVE. I mean it won’t be devastating to my game since I have all current 5s champed, and I didn’t go all in on him. The issue I have though is the trend of every “OP” character being called out for a nerf. You remove enough tools and it starts getting hard to get the job done. Also IMO as hard as it is to reach this level of gameplay there shouldn’t be such a thing as OP. If you played something like Skyrim nonstop for six or more years do you think it would be balanced? At what point do you get to have powerful toons that aren’t just pretty good? God boost pretty much diversified the tier but outside of that, again IMO, there are more weak 5*s than strong. That’s just ridiculous given the time commitment and or financial commitment to reach that point in the game. Reworking PVP seems like a much more fair solution. I’m sure it’s much more work as well, but that’s how it goes sometimes when you are trying to do right for your customers. The problem with that analogy is that Skyrim is a single player game that never gets updated and this is a competitive game with regular updates. If you want to build up a character so powerful that he wipes out npc bosses in one hit, no one is going to care except you. In a game like this if you are a 6 year player who is trivially wiping out teams of other 6 year players, or 7 and 8 year players, because you have the one character in the game that is better than every other character in the game then that is a balance issue. To make a more accurate analogy, imagine if someone spent 8 years grinding to get the very best of the best gear in World of warcraft and then you came along with 6 years of grinding and trivially destroyed that 8 year player because the newest weapon that was released is so OP that it one shots everything else in the game. That leads to a situation where you must use that new weapon or you are at a massive disadvantage to everyone who does, which is not only terribly unbalanced but also boring when everyone in the game is wielding the sword of 1000 truth's.
@BriMan2222 said:
I concede that is an excellent point. I guess my perspective is different because I don’t play competitively. Just trying to give myself and others like me a voice here. Like I said, I definitely see the other side of the coin as well.
If someone really doesn't want to play competitively, just get yourself sandboxed. You can enjoy the gameplay with the most powerful characters, all maxed out, and have no impact on anyone else's game experience. That's the only real way to play MPQ as a single-player game.
Does not matter how strong you make Magik's demon tiles, the concept is flawed. A 2 turn un-fortified tile is hardly a threat. And why does it take a demon 2 turns to attack? Seems odd, and slow. It's also a detriment to match the demon tile because it resets to 2 turns... 4* Gorr remains better despite the improvements to 5* Magik.
Chasm design is to win by putting enemies "in jail" where they dont get ap cause of abyss, they get drained of the one they have, and he is healing damage you do. This is nice design, original gameplay, but one that should stay niche as it the opposite of playing mpq.
For that reason, I really hope they go with significantly brutal nerf never come back to chasm after that. (and also I hope there is a rule in their design playbook that explicitly prohibit abyss tiles)
One way to do that is to remove all survivability from him, ditching heal and revive, give him some minor nuke based on abyss tiles and call it a day
Boosting any characters is appreciated.
That said, I don't really get Kate's Blue. Such an expensive defensive power when there's tons of offensive nukes way less costly. Now, it can KO outright someone, and she had high damage on all her abilities anyway, so I don't see much gained this way. And if the idea is that HEye can provide blue... then Kang's blue is cheaper and can basically one shot people regardless of their health. Plus there's a 3* version of him as well.
BTW, I wouldn't agree that all of Kate's powers are too expensive. Her Black is OK, and there's a character already at the 3* tier capable of spamming black tiles to provide her with the AP and make matching the CD relatively easy.
As for Magik, I was hoping her demons repeaters would respawn at the same count when matched, let them be 2-turns.
Still, the bigger issue for Magik is the existence of M'Thor (And Chasm somewhat, but in theory, if you can manage to get the AP, you start the demons. In practice there's no getting the AP fighting Chasm... )
For fighting Chasm and Hulk, she sounds cool with the permanent damage, but it's too little so she needs a booster. Also, you want her to tank, but she doesn't heal herself, so she needs a healer or resistance provided. Finally, she needs AP to fire her actives (or her booster does, even more), so she needs a board shaker. Unfortunately, we can't bring a 4 members team to a fight...
Boosted max champ Kate Bishop does hit mega hard in this PVP when she takes a shot.
@LavaManLee said: @Borstock said: People really don't remember how good PvP got before Chasm? Simulator was actually diverse back then. In fairness, there always seems to be a meta that dominates. Before Chasm, it was endless 5Witch/5Col/Something and before that it was iHulk/Okoye/Something. It wasn't super diverse. But what it was, was a meta of teams that were beatable without mirror matches. You could use something else and not take 45 minutes playing just for one win.
@LavaManLee said:
I don't have the numbers or anything, but I remember Simulator being a lot of fun right before Chasm because there were so many different teams out there. In my opinion, it was more diverse than you're remembering. Back then, I used to play 150-200+ Sim matches a season just because it was fun. Now, I hit 50 and forget about it until the last day depending on how close I am to hitting a higher rewards tier. I can beat the countless Chasm-iHulk-Shulk teams, too. I just don't care enough to bother.
There's always going to be a best team, and that team is always going to be overrepresented.
The problem occurs when the best team is so much better than any alternative, that it outclasses teams 100 or more levels higher.
@ThaRoadWarrior said: Boosted max champ Kate Bishop does hit mega hard in this PVP when she takes a shot.
So Agreed, she is hitting harder than some of the base 5*!
Mod note: Removed a few off-topic posts. Please keep this discussion on topic. Thank you.
@KGB said: @fight4thedream said: If permanent damage is intended to be a good counter against healing/reviving types, it's not very effective. It was a non-factor in this win and such has been my experience in most cases. They should just change permanent damage to a reduction in healing / resurrection instead. In other words right now when Magik hits with her match damage she does an extra 10% permanent damage. Instead what it should do is reduce any healing / resurrection by a percentage (say 5% per match so after 20 matches she would block 100% of all healing / resurrection). Changing it to reducing healing would mean it's always useful against healers regardless of where they are health wise vs max health. The power cost (for those that damage via direct powers) could be adjusted for all those characters too based on it now only stopping heal and not doing direct damage etc. KGB
@fight4thedream said: If permanent damage is intended to be a good counter against healing/reviving types, it's not very effective. It was a non-factor in this win and such has been my experience in most cases.
@fight4thedream said:
If permanent damage is intended to be a good counter against healing/reviving types, it's not very effective. It was a non-factor in this win and such has been my experience in most cases.
They should just change permanent damage to a reduction in healing / resurrection instead.
In other words right now when Magik hits with her match damage she does an extra 10% permanent damage. Instead what it should do is reduce any healing / resurrection by a percentage (say 5% per match so after 20 matches she would block 100% of all healing / resurrection).
Changing it to reducing healing would mean it's always useful against healers regardless of where they are health wise vs max health. The power cost (for those that damage via direct powers) could be adjusted for all those characters too based on it now only stopping heal and not doing direct damage etc.
I really love this idea! I think it would be a more successful way to deal with healers. It would also avoid the awkwardness of the perma damage visual mark, although it does open the question about how a player would be able to check how much the opponent's character healing has been reduced. I suppose they could click on the opponent character and include the information there? Or maybe just have a percentage number that appears visually every time their healing is being reduced somewhat similar to Shang-Chi's combo points?
In regards to Magik's extra match damage boost being reduced, I am also not a fan. I would have preferred they removed the permanent damage from one of her abilities. I keep feeling like they were trying to accomplish something by giving three of her abilities permanent damage but it just hasn't coalesced into something meaningful.
Finally, in regards to changes to Chasm, without getting into spoilers about the recent Dark Web event he was featured in, I think an argument can be made that he should receive the "Supernatural" affiliation. (Please use spoiler tags if you wish to discuss this point).
Simulator was not diverse pre-chasm. I think you have some rose-colored glasses bias going on. Pre-Chasm simulator was all Colossus and Scarlet Witch. It was a slog to get wins. I'm not saying Chasm is better, but it is not worse on diversity either.