New VIP Rewards Structure

entrailbucket

@BoyWonder1914 said:

@entrailbucket said:

Are you guys really not aware of this stuff? Look at random players' rosters in your CL10 brackets, not just those at the top. Count the numbers of champion 5* you see. Join a public alliance that plays every day.

Stop looking up and start looking down -- you'll be amazed at how far off the ground you are

Lol, I'm #212 in my Honor Among Thieves CL10 bracket. I can see players 202-221, and only 2 of them DON'T have 5-star rosters. I think you have it backwards, and more players are in this tier than you think.

So, the top 20% of players in the highest possible CL have 5*?

DAZ0273

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:
VIP is certainly much more relevant to lower tier players than it is to us, because (let's say it all together):

We don't matter.

We are the top 5% of players, we collectively generate far less revenue than the 95%, and the vast majority of us will never quit the game for any reason. They will occasionally do things that benefit us but they are typically quite low on the priority list, and they absolutely should be. They are not going to rewrite large portions of the game to benefit us. Why on Earth would they?

I still find VIP to be a good value because all I care about is legendary tokens, and $10 for 2 LT is still a good value compared to every other purchase in the game.

I agree with this mostly but disagree with one aspect of it - if we completely and utterly didn't matter then we would still be on the old 4/4/5 release schedule because casual players ain't casually champing 5*.

They nerfed Bishop. That was for 5* players. 4* players had no issues there at all. They eliminated tapping. That was a top tier player issue. They rowed back on changes to PvP because of top tier players finally finding a good compromise.

Do I find myself statistically relevant? No but every day more and more players are advancing to the 5* level and the Devs are aware they also need game content and can't just be written off. The Devs said to me in a Q&A that some of their early stuff was with an eye on expanding the end game number levels, so 5* does matter to them it seems.

All of those support the initial hypothesis though. Remember Bishop's reign of terror lasted a really long time. Tapping lasted a very long time. Eliminating cupcakes took forever.

Don't get me wrong, they will do things for us, we're just low on the priority list.

The 4/5/4/5 schedule is not for us, it's designed to sell more slots to lower tier players. They still don't expect players to champion 5*, and the vast majority of players don't (and won't ever).

I don't buy it. In the old days we never even had 5* PvP. It was ridiculous. They never showcased the 5* releases. There was no Challenge Node. Now we do. New 5* are for 5* players. SCL10 was for 5* players. They want more 5* players. They told me so. Why do that if the intention is then to act like they are irrelevant.

Anyway - this has veered off topic a bit I fear?

5* PvP and the boosts are designed to sell roster slots. The 5* loaner is the most powerful character many players will have access to. The message, flashing in giant red letters, is "if you ever pull a 5* character you MUST buy a slot for them." Essentials (of all star levels) serve the same purpose -- they're the stick vs the carrot.

Are you guys really not aware of this stuff? Look at random players' rosters in your CL10 brackets, not just those at the top. Count the numbers of champion 5* you see. Join a public alliance that plays every day.

Stop looking up and start looking down -- you'll be amazed at how far off the ground you are

I am in a casual alliance that plays everyday which welcomes new players. We have plenty mixture of different level players. I never look at the top of brackets because I don't play competitively. I think you subscribe to a version of this game based circa 2015 and are largely divorced from reality. You are 550 player - how could you have any idea about what players at the lower end do? I see it everyday in my Alliance. I think you might be the one surprised.

How casual is your casual alliance? Is it public? Where do you place in PvP and PvE?

We are full at present but recruit publicly when we have slots. Ook Ekh we finished 760th. Honor Among Thrives we appear at present to be 540th. I am usually the top PvP player, often contributing 30-40% of the points. I couldn't play much Ook Ekh so our top scoring player hit 554 points. We do normally do a bit better in Season time.

DAZ0273

@entrailbucket said:
There are 10-15,000 currently active alliances, and tons of everyday players aren't even in an alliance.

Ook Ekh said 8341 Alliances contributed.

entrailbucket

In the monkey PvP there were 8,348 alliances represented. PvE typically has significantly more -- new players don't play PvP.

Your alliance finished in the top 10-15% of all alliances. You'll easily be top 10% in PvE.

Now here's where everyone handwaves all those players and all those alliances as "casuals" that "don't count."

DAZ0273

@entrailbucket said:
There are 10-15,000 currently active alliances, and tons of everyday players aren't even in an alliance.

If they aren't playing then the Devs will not even have data metrics on them!

BoyWonder1914

@entrailbucket said:

@BoyWonder1914 said:

@entrailbucket said:

Are you guys really not aware of this stuff? Look at random players' rosters in your CL10 brackets, not just those at the top. Count the numbers of champion 5* you see. Join a public alliance that plays every day.

Stop looking up and start looking down -- you'll be amazed at how far off the ground you are

Lol, I'm #212 in my Honor Among Thieves CL10 bracket. I can see players 202-221, and only 2 of them DON'T have 5-star rosters. I think you have it backwards, and more players are in this tier than you think.

So, the top 20% of players in the highest possible CL have 5*?

Anything below 200 is out of the top 20%, and 17 out of 19 implies a higher spread of 5-star players than you seem to want to imply. Would gladly look at the lower ranks if possible.

entrailbucket

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:
There are 10-15,000 currently active alliances, and tons of everyday players aren't even in an alliance.

If they aren't playing then the Devs will not even have data metrics on them!

They're active, they just haven't joined an alliance.

entrailbucket

@BoyWonder1914 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@BoyWonder1914 said:

@entrailbucket said:

Are you guys really not aware of this stuff? Look at random players' rosters in your CL10 brackets, not just those at the top. Count the numbers of champion 5* you see. Join a public alliance that plays every day.

Stop looking up and start looking down -- you'll be amazed at how far off the ground you are

Lol, I'm #212 in my Honor Among Thieves CL10 bracket. I can see players 202-221, and only 2 of them DON'T have 5-star rosters. I think you have it backwards, and more players are in this tier than you think.

So, the top 20% of players in the highest possible CL have 5*?

Anything below 200 is out of the top 20%, and 17 out of 19 implies a higher spread of 5-star players than you seem to want to imply. Would gladly look at the lower ranks if possible.

Ah sorry, the top 21.2%, that's way different than the top 20%.

BoyWonder1914

@entrailbucket said:

@BoyWonder1914 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@BoyWonder1914 said:

@entrailbucket said:

Are you guys really not aware of this stuff? Look at random players' rosters in your CL10 brackets, not just those at the top. Count the numbers of champion 5* you see. Join a public alliance that plays every day.

Stop looking up and start looking down -- you'll be amazed at how far off the ground you are

Lol, I'm #212 in my Honor Among Thieves CL10 bracket. I can see players 202-221, and only 2 of them DON'T have 5-star rosters. I think you have it backwards, and more players are in this tier than you think.

So, the top 20% of players in the highest possible CL have 5*?

Anything below 200 is out of the top 20%, and 17 out of 19 implies a higher spread of 5-star players than you seem to want to imply. Would gladly look at the lower ranks if possible.

Ah sorry, the top 21.2%, that's way different than the top 20%.

You're trying to use competitive rank as your reasoning, for the CL that people notoriously play for progression rather than sweating for rank. There's probably plenty of 5-star rosters at the bottom of the rankings too, so what exactly is your point here? The 5-star level doesn't have the same barriers to entry that it used to.

HoundofShadow

My alliance ranking is typically top 1000 in pves. Currently, we are at 6XX. Approximately 25% of players in each alliance around our ranking are 5* players.

DAZ0273

@entrailbucket said:
In the monkey PvP there were 8,348 alliances represented. PvE typically has significantly more -- new players don't play PvP.

Your alliance finished in the top 10-15% of all alliances. You'll easily be top 10% in PvE.

Now here's where everyone handwaves all those players and all those alliances as "casuals" that "don't count."

7 of the players who contributed to my PvP Alliance score did not manage to reach 100 points. That means they didn't even clear seed teams. If that is the mark of a top tier Alliance I think it says more about the state of PvP than anything else! Five of them are 5* players having at least one champed 5* and in the other cases 3 or more! Two of them have 5* over level 265.

So now I have gone down from being in the top 5% to the top 15%! Quite the demotion! I see plenty of 5* players each event and not the same names time and again which used to be the old complaint. "Don't go to the 5* tier. You will be stuck fighting the same 5 people again and again". It isn't the case at all in my experience.

DAZ0273

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:
There are 10-15,000 currently active alliances, and tons of everyday players aren't even in an alliance.

If they aren't playing then the Devs will not even have data metrics on them!

They're active, they just haven't joined an alliance.

So where are the other 7000 Alliances then? If these casual players who are totally playing every day are not members of these missing Alliances exactly how many are we talking about here?!?!?!

entrailbucket

So what percentage of players do you guys think have champion 5*, then? 80%? 90%? Under Demiurge it was 5%. How much do you think it's changed since then?

entrailbucket

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:
There are 10-15,000 currently active alliances, and tons of everyday players aren't even in an alliance.

If they aren't playing then the Devs will not even have data metrics on them!

They're active, they just haven't joined an alliance.

So where are the other 7000 Alliances then? If these casual players who are totally playing every day are not members of these missing Alliances exactly how many are we talking about here?!?!?!

I am definitely the one here who's overstating my own influence and overrepresenting players like me among the playerbase as a whole. I'm definitely the one who's out of touch, not the posters pretending that tens of thousands of everyday players don't exist or don't matter.

Ignoring and/or handwaving away the tens of thousands of everyday players at a significantly lower roster tier than you is a really common mistake. I've had 550 rosters tell me that they're barely in the top 20% of MPQ rosters. I've had 450 players tell me they're in the bottom 20%. Someone just the other day said that a bunch of 450s is "midgame."

The game is designed to keep you chasing, it's designed to keep you looking up and comparing yourself only to those ahead of you, not looking down at those you've passed by.

DAZ0273

C'mon Entrail - don't retreat into your penchant for ludicrous exaggeration. Nobody is suggesting figures that high but we are, those of us commenting, suggesting our subjective experience doesn't match your ultra low numbers. Aren't players even skipping the 4* tier these days? It took me forever to get to 5 land - there players here who have made it in half the time I did and faster.

No idea how many 5* players there are but my Alliance has more than we ever did and we have been going for 6-7 years but I see plenty of 5* players in PvP and PvP turnout is bad enough that my Alliance finished where it did and nobody was arsed! I very rarely even see a name from the Forums I recognise, let alone have to Scrabble around. It often feels like everybody has Shang Chi though.

DAZ0273

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:
There are 10-15,000 currently active alliances, and tons of everyday players aren't even in an alliance.

If they aren't playing then the Devs will not even have data metrics on them!

They're active, they just haven't joined an alliance.

So where are the other 7000 Alliances then? If these casual players who are totally playing every day are not members of these missing Alliances exactly how many are we talking about here?!?!?!

I am definitely the one here who's overstating my own influence and overrepresenting players like me among the playerbase as a whole. I'm definitely the one who's out of touch, not the posters pretending that tens of thousands of everyday players don't exist or don't matter.

Ignoring and/or handwaving away the tens of thousands of everyday players at a significantly lower roster tier than you is a really common mistake. I've had 550 rosters tell me that they're barely in the top 20% of MPQ rosters. I've had 450 players tell me they're in the bottom 20%. Someone just the other day said that a bunch of 450s is "midgame."

The game is designed to keep you chasing, it's designed to keep you looking up and comparing yourself only to those ahead of you, not looking down at those you've passed by.

Where are they then? You are telling me and Boy Wonder that our subjective experience is a lie. These 5* players we have in our Alliances or see every day don't exist. Yet where are the 10,000 casual players playing everyday but seeming never ever progressing to anywhere? Perpetually stuck in the 3* tier they are. Toiling away year after year happy to finally maybe champ Luke Cage.

And nobody is handwaving away anybody. I have no idea if they exist. You have no idea if they exist.I do know that new players exist. I have them in my Alliance. I do know that those players progress to being 5* players. I have watched them do it. I am telling you that the 5* tier is bigger than you want to admit because it does not suit your narrative. Believe me, don't believe me. Up to you matey.

entrailbucket

The 5% number absolutely blew everyone's minds when we first heard it a couple years ago, and that was confirmed at the time. Most people I knew simply refused to accept it. Heck, I had trouble with it. But it makes sense.

Guys, this is a casual phone game with a license from the most successful comic/movie franchise of all time. It's been downloaded over 10 million times on the Google app store alone. Tons of people play it, and most of them aren't that serious. Champion 5* are still pretty hard to get if you're not playing optimally, and the vast, vast majority of players aren't playing optimally.

DAZ0273

I also apologise for my part on taking this thread so far off topic as it has gone - I said about it staying on topic and then contributed more than any ody to do the opposite of that. I trust that either Scofie or Fight will do what they see fit and promise I will only stay on topic from this post on. Sorry guys n gals.

entrailbucket

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:
There are 10-15,000 currently active alliances, and tons of everyday players aren't even in an alliance.

If they aren't playing then the Devs will not even have data metrics on them!

They're active, they just haven't joined an alliance.

So where are the other 7000 Alliances then? If these casual players who are totally playing every day are not members of these missing Alliances exactly how many are we talking about here?!?!?!

I am definitely the one here who's overstating my own influence and overrepresenting players like me among the playerbase as a whole. I'm definitely the one who's out of touch, not the posters pretending that tens of thousands of everyday players don't exist or don't matter.

Ignoring and/or handwaving away the tens of thousands of everyday players at a significantly lower roster tier than you is a really common mistake. I've had 550 rosters tell me that they're barely in the top 20% of MPQ rosters. I've had 450 players tell me they're in the bottom 20%. Someone just the other day said that a bunch of 450s is "midgame."

The game is designed to keep you chasing, it's designed to keep you looking up and comparing yourself only to those ahead of you, not looking down at those you've passed by.

Where are they then? You are telling me and Boy Wonder that our subjective experience is a lie. These 5* players we have in our Alliances or see every day don't exist. Yet where are the 10,000 casual players playing everyday but seeming never ever progressing to anywhere? Perpetually stuck in the 3* tier they are. Toiling away year after year happy to finally maybe champ Luke Cage.

And nobody is handwaving away anybody. I have no idea if they exist. You have no idea if they exist.I do know that new players exist. I have them in my Alliance. I do know that those players progress to being 5* players. I have watched them do it. I am telling you that the 5* tier is bigger than you want to admit because it does not suit your narrative. Believe me, don't believe me. Up to you matey.

Your subjective experience is absolutely a lie, as is mine. I rarely see anyone who's not a 5* player, and I mostly see and interact with very high level 5* players. We're not even eligible for the lower CLs. How would any of us know what lower tier players look like, or how many there are?

You're right though -- I don't know the number currently and neither do you. I know that ~2 years ago, less than 5% of players had a character at 450 or above. I bet it's gone up since then. I also bet it's not yet 10%.

What do you think the number is? @IceIX, any chance you could settle a bet for two long time forumites?

KGB

@entrailbucket said:
You're right though -- I don't know the number currently and neither do you. I know that ~2 years ago, less than 5% of players had a character at 450 or above. I bet it's gone up since then. I also bet it's not yet 10%.

What do you think the number is? @IceIX, any chance you could settle a bet for two long time forumites?

I think you'd need to quantify what you mean by 5% of players. If you mean 5% of everyone who has ever played (10+ million) then clearly the answer is no since millions probably played 1-5 battles and deleted the game or never played any further.

But if you mean 5% of active players (those who've say played in the last month) then the answer will be a lot different.

KGB