New VIP Rewards Structure

hygge_hound

@BoyWonder1914 said:

Not his point - once you've moved to the more intermediate/advanced level of the game, having to use 1 and 2-star characters becomes a chore. They haven't made new ones in god knows how long and aren't going to, so it's also the same 1 and 2-star characters. You can at least try new combos at the 3-star level.

No, apparently his point NOW is that he wants them to completely redesign DDQ by scl, and/or eliminate the need for using 1/2* characters altogether? Which again requires more coding than is logical to do for just the highest end players who don't want to have to bother with a few nodes per day that take less than 5 minutes. My mmr is like 512, and I don't say this to "brag" in any way at all, but only to illustrate that I'm hardly a beginner myself. And I think the idea of completely reprogramming ddq to function via SCL or making it autoplay (which would also entail a massive amount of coding) is completely silly.

And none of this is on-topic so I'll leave it there.

entrailbucket

VIP is certainly much more relevant to lower tier players than it is to us, because (let's say it all together):

We don't matter.

We are the top 5% of players, we collectively generate far less revenue than the 95%, and the vast majority of us will never quit the game for any reason. They will occasionally do things that benefit us but they are typically quite low on the priority list, and they absolutely should be. They are not going to rewrite large portions of the game to benefit us. Why on Earth would they?

I still find VIP to be a good value because all I care about is legendary tokens, and $10 for 2 LT is still a good value compared to every other purchase in the game.

Bowgentle

Commanding presence chain offer kinda disagrees, but that one is insane, so yeah.

DAZ0273

@entrailbucket said:
VIP is certainly much more relevant to lower tier players than it is to us, because (let's say it all together):

We don't matter.

We are the top 5% of players, we collectively generate far less revenue than the 95%, and the vast majority of us will never quit the game for any reason. They will occasionally do things that benefit us but they are typically quite low on the priority list, and they absolutely should be. They are not going to rewrite large portions of the game to benefit us. Why on Earth would they?

I still find VIP to be a good value because all I care about is legendary tokens, and $10 for 2 LT is still a good value compared to every other purchase in the game.

I agree with this mostly but disagree with one aspect of it - if we completely and utterly didn't matter then we would still be on the old 4/4/5 release schedule because casual players ain't casually champing 5*.

They nerfed Bishop. That was for 5* players. 4* players had no issues there at all. They eliminated tapping. That was a top tier player issue. They rowed back on changes to PvP because of top tier players finally finding a good compromise.

Do I find myself statistically relevant? No but every day more and more players are advancing to the 5* level and the Devs are aware they also need game content and can't just be written off. The Devs said to me in a Q&A that some of their early stuff was with an eye on expanding the end game number levels, so 5* does matter to them it seems.

entrailbucket

That's like rating every single vault against the anniversary vaults -- it's fair because they are both vaults, but it may be unfair because we're not sure whether an offer like that will ever repeat.

entrailbucket

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:
VIP is certainly much more relevant to lower tier players than it is to us, because (let's say it all together):

We don't matter.

We are the top 5% of players, we collectively generate far less revenue than the 95%, and the vast majority of us will never quit the game for any reason. They will occasionally do things that benefit us but they are typically quite low on the priority list, and they absolutely should be. They are not going to rewrite large portions of the game to benefit us. Why on Earth would they?

I still find VIP to be a good value because all I care about is legendary tokens, and $10 for 2 LT is still a good value compared to every other purchase in the game.

I agree with this mostly but disagree with one aspect of it - if we completely and utterly didn't matter then we would still be on the old 4/4/5 release schedule because casual players ain't casually champing 5*.

They nerfed Bishop. That was for 5* players. 4* players had no issues there at all. They eliminated tapping. That was a top tier player issue. They rowed back on changes to PvP because of top tier players finally finding a good compromise.

Do I find myself statistically relevant? No but every day more and more players are advancing to the 5* level and the Devs are aware they also need game content and can't just be written off. The Devs said to me in a Q&A that some of their early stuff was with an eye on expanding the end game number levels, so 5* does matter to them it seems.

All of those support the initial hypothesis though. Remember Bishop's reign of terror lasted a really long time. Tapping lasted a very long time. Eliminating cupcakes took forever.

Don't get me wrong, they will do things for us, we're just low on the priority list.

The 4/5/4/5 schedule is not for us, it's designed to sell more slots to lower tier players. They still don't expect players to champion 5*, and the vast majority of players don't (and won't ever).

DAZ0273

@entrailbucket said:
That's like rating every single vault against the anniversary vaults -- it's fair because they are both vaults, but it may be unfair because we're not sure whether an offer like that will ever repeat.

This makes no sense though - the Devs presumably like money and if this offer gets them it then why would they not repeat it?

HoundofShadow

At least 4000 players fully covered or champed SC during last year anniversary. Is 4000 a lot?

entrailbucket

@HoundofShadow said:
At least 4000 players fully covered or champed SC during last year anniversary. Is 4000 a lot?

I'm not sure I buy that number and I haven't seen it quoted anywhere. I'm sure you have it stored in your master list of developer gospels though.

But -- not particularly, no. How many CL10 PvE brackets do we get across all slices? Consider that CL10 is the highest possible difficulty and tons of players don't even qualify to play there. How many daily players do you think this game has? 4000 is peanuts, even if that number is accurate.

DAZ0273

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:
VIP is certainly much more relevant to lower tier players than it is to us, because (let's say it all together):

We don't matter.

We are the top 5% of players, we collectively generate far less revenue than the 95%, and the vast majority of us will never quit the game for any reason. They will occasionally do things that benefit us but they are typically quite low on the priority list, and they absolutely should be. They are not going to rewrite large portions of the game to benefit us. Why on Earth would they?

I still find VIP to be a good value because all I care about is legendary tokens, and $10 for 2 LT is still a good value compared to every other purchase in the game.

I agree with this mostly but disagree with one aspect of it - if we completely and utterly didn't matter then we would still be on the old 4/4/5 release schedule because casual players ain't casually champing 5*.

They nerfed Bishop. That was for 5* players. 4* players had no issues there at all. They eliminated tapping. That was a top tier player issue. They rowed back on changes to PvP because of top tier players finally finding a good compromise.

Do I find myself statistically relevant? No but every day more and more players are advancing to the 5* level and the Devs are aware they also need game content and can't just be written off. The Devs said to me in a Q&A that some of their early stuff was with an eye on expanding the end game number levels, so 5* does matter to them it seems.

All of those support the initial hypothesis though. Remember Bishop's reign of terror lasted a really long time. Tapping lasted a very long time. Eliminating cupcakes took forever.

Don't get me wrong, they will do things for us, we're just low on the priority list.

The 4/5/4/5 schedule is not for us, it's designed to sell more slots to lower tier players. They still don't expect players to champion 5*, and the vast majority of players don't (and won't ever).

I don't buy it. In the old days we never even had 5* PvP. It was ridiculous. They never showcased the 5* releases. There was no Challenge Node. Now we do. New 5* are for 5* players. SCL10 was for 5* players. They want more 5* players. They told me so. Why do that if the intention is then to act like they are irrelevant.

Anyway - this has veered off topic a bit I fear?

entrailbucket

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:
That's like rating every single vault against the anniversary vaults -- it's fair because they are both vaults, but it may be unfair because we're not sure whether an offer like that will ever repeat.

This makes no sense though - the Devs presumably like money and if this offer gets them it then why would they not repeat it?

Why wouldn't they run the anniversary vault every day? That made a lot of money too. Why do physical stores run sales, vs permanently lowering prices?

DAZ0273

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:
That's like rating every single vault against the anniversary vaults -- it's fair because they are both vaults, but it may be unfair because we're not sure whether an offer like that will ever repeat.

This makes no sense though - the Devs presumably like money and if this offer gets them it then why would they not repeat it?

Why wouldn't they run the anniversary vault every day? That made a lot of money too. Why do physical stores run sales, vs permanently lowering prices?

I am talking about the chain offer which you buy for actual cash. It is very obvious why they wouldn't run a HP based offer that generous every day because there are enough players out there who have enough HP that it barely hits the sides. I guess they might wear them down eventually? But that HP wasn't bought just now.

entrailbucket

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:
VIP is certainly much more relevant to lower tier players than it is to us, because (let's say it all together):

We don't matter.

We are the top 5% of players, we collectively generate far less revenue than the 95%, and the vast majority of us will never quit the game for any reason. They will occasionally do things that benefit us but they are typically quite low on the priority list, and they absolutely should be. They are not going to rewrite large portions of the game to benefit us. Why on Earth would they?

I still find VIP to be a good value because all I care about is legendary tokens, and $10 for 2 LT is still a good value compared to every other purchase in the game.

I agree with this mostly but disagree with one aspect of it - if we completely and utterly didn't matter then we would still be on the old 4/4/5 release schedule because casual players ain't casually champing 5*.

They nerfed Bishop. That was for 5* players. 4* players had no issues there at all. They eliminated tapping. That was a top tier player issue. They rowed back on changes to PvP because of top tier players finally finding a good compromise.

Do I find myself statistically relevant? No but every day more and more players are advancing to the 5* level and the Devs are aware they also need game content and can't just be written off. The Devs said to me in a Q&A that some of their early stuff was with an eye on expanding the end game number levels, so 5* does matter to them it seems.

All of those support the initial hypothesis though. Remember Bishop's reign of terror lasted a really long time. Tapping lasted a very long time. Eliminating cupcakes took forever.

Don't get me wrong, they will do things for us, we're just low on the priority list.

The 4/5/4/5 schedule is not for us, it's designed to sell more slots to lower tier players. They still don't expect players to champion 5*, and the vast majority of players don't (and won't ever).

I don't buy it. In the old days we never even had 5* PvP. It was ridiculous. They never showcased the 5* releases. There was no Challenge Node. Now we do. New 5* are for 5* players. SCL10 was for 5* players. They want more 5* players. They told me so. Why do that if the intention is then to act like they are irrelevant.

Anyway - this has veered off topic a bit I fear?

5* PvP and the boosts are designed to sell roster slots. The 5* loaner is the most powerful character many players will have access to. The message, flashing in giant red letters, is "if you ever pull a 5* character you MUST buy a slot for them." Essentials (of all star levels) serve the same purpose -- they're the stick vs the carrot.

Are you guys really not aware of this stuff? Look at random players' rosters in your CL10 brackets, not just those at the top. Count the numbers of champion 5* you see. Join a public alliance that plays every day.

Stop looking up and start looking down -- you'll be amazed at how far off the ground you are

HoundofShadow

Let me correct myself, it's ~4000. I asked the dev this question.

And as for whether we are important, I also asked similar question, which got answered.

1) How many Shang-Chis have been champed or fully covered during this anniversary?

1. Looks like ~4,000.

2) How do you and your team deal with players' feedbacks that contradict one another? How do you determine which group of players to listen to?

2. This is probably the toughest thing we do! The voices of the players do truly drive this game, but as you point out they so often differ from one another. What we strive to do is identify the voices. Not the individuals, but the vantage points. You'll have extremely late game players revile a feature that is welcomed and targeted at an entirely different class of player. Again, every voice matters and changes our thinking on how we proceed. If we feel we have a strong and flexible solution that can keep all of the player groups at least neutral whilst benefiting the feature's target, it's a win. When it's not so easy, we slow things down and keep working the problem. As for how we determine what group of players to listen to, I often times think it's more important to look at how we listen to them. Reddit, the forums, Discord, etc all have varried groups of vocal individuals, but there are more ways to communicate about this game. In addition to written words, we look at tons of data and use it to manifest voices of our less vocal player groups.

DAZ0273

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:
VIP is certainly much more relevant to lower tier players than it is to us, because (let's say it all together):

We don't matter.

We are the top 5% of players, we collectively generate far less revenue than the 95%, and the vast majority of us will never quit the game for any reason. They will occasionally do things that benefit us but they are typically quite low on the priority list, and they absolutely should be. They are not going to rewrite large portions of the game to benefit us. Why on Earth would they?

I still find VIP to be a good value because all I care about is legendary tokens, and $10 for 2 LT is still a good value compared to every other purchase in the game.

I agree with this mostly but disagree with one aspect of it - if we completely and utterly didn't matter then we would still be on the old 4/4/5 release schedule because casual players ain't casually champing 5*.

They nerfed Bishop. That was for 5* players. 4* players had no issues there at all. They eliminated tapping. That was a top tier player issue. They rowed back on changes to PvP because of top tier players finally finding a good compromise.

Do I find myself statistically relevant? No but every day more and more players are advancing to the 5* level and the Devs are aware they also need game content and can't just be written off. The Devs said to me in a Q&A that some of their early stuff was with an eye on expanding the end game number levels, so 5* does matter to them it seems.

All of those support the initial hypothesis though. Remember Bishop's reign of terror lasted a really long time. Tapping lasted a very long time. Eliminating cupcakes took forever.

Don't get me wrong, they will do things for us, we're just low on the priority list.

The 4/5/4/5 schedule is not for us, it's designed to sell more slots to lower tier players. They still don't expect players to champion 5*, and the vast majority of players don't (and won't ever).

I don't buy it. In the old days we never even had 5* PvP. It was ridiculous. They never showcased the 5* releases. There was no Challenge Node. Now we do. New 5* are for 5* players. SCL10 was for 5* players. They want more 5* players. They told me so. Why do that if the intention is then to act like they are irrelevant.

Anyway - this has veered off topic a bit I fear?

5* PvP and the boosts are designed to sell roster slots. The 5* loaner is the most powerful character many players will have access to. The message, flashing in giant red letters, is "if you ever pull a 5* character you MUST buy a slot for them." Essentials (of all star levels) serve the same purpose -- they're the stick vs the carrot.

Are you guys really not aware of this stuff? Look at random players' rosters in your CL10 brackets, not just those at the top. Count the numbers of champion 5* you see. Join a public alliance that plays every day.

Stop looking up and start looking down -- you'll be amazed at how far off the ground you are

I am in a casual alliance that plays everyday which welcomes new players. We have plenty mixture of different level players. I never look at the top of brackets because I don't play competitively. I think you subscribe to a version of this game based circa 2015 and are largely divorced from reality. You are 550 player - how could you have any idea about what players at the lower end do? I see it everyday in my Alliance. I think you might be the one surprised.

entrailbucket

@HoundofShadow said:
Let me correct myself, it's ~4000. I asked the dev this question.

And as for whether we are important, I also asked similar question, which got answered.

1) How many Shang-Chis have been champed or fully covered during this anniversary?

1. Looks like ~4,000.

2) How do you and your team deal with players' feedbacks that contradict one another? How do you determine which group of players to listen to?

2. This is probably the toughest thing we do! The voices of the players do truly drive this game, but as you point out they so often differ from one another. What we strive to do is identify the voices. Not the individuals, but the vantage points. You'll have extremely late game players revile a feature that is welcomed and targeted at an entirely different class of player. Again, every voice matters and changes our thinking on how we proceed. If we feel we have a strong and flexible solution that can keep all of the player groups at least neutral whilst benefiting the feature's target, it's a win. When it's not so easy, we slow things down and keep working the problem. As for how we determine what group of players to listen to, I often times think it's more important to look at how we listen to them. Reddit, the forums, Discord, etc all have varried groups of vocal individuals, but there are more ways to communicate about this game. In addition to written words, we look at tons of data and use it to manifest voices of our less vocal player groups.

Did you really expect them to say "Nope, you don't matter at all. We hate you and disregard everything you say."

They're going to serve the largest group of players, because doing otherwise would be insane.

entrailbucket

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:
VIP is certainly much more relevant to lower tier players than it is to us, because (let's say it all together):

We don't matter.

We are the top 5% of players, we collectively generate far less revenue than the 95%, and the vast majority of us will never quit the game for any reason. They will occasionally do things that benefit us but they are typically quite low on the priority list, and they absolutely should be. They are not going to rewrite large portions of the game to benefit us. Why on Earth would they?

I still find VIP to be a good value because all I care about is legendary tokens, and $10 for 2 LT is still a good value compared to every other purchase in the game.

I agree with this mostly but disagree with one aspect of it - if we completely and utterly didn't matter then we would still be on the old 4/4/5 release schedule because casual players ain't casually champing 5*.

They nerfed Bishop. That was for 5* players. 4* players had no issues there at all. They eliminated tapping. That was a top tier player issue. They rowed back on changes to PvP because of top tier players finally finding a good compromise.

Do I find myself statistically relevant? No but every day more and more players are advancing to the 5* level and the Devs are aware they also need game content and can't just be written off. The Devs said to me in a Q&A that some of their early stuff was with an eye on expanding the end game number levels, so 5* does matter to them it seems.

All of those support the initial hypothesis though. Remember Bishop's reign of terror lasted a really long time. Tapping lasted a very long time. Eliminating cupcakes took forever.

Don't get me wrong, they will do things for us, we're just low on the priority list.

The 4/5/4/5 schedule is not for us, it's designed to sell more slots to lower tier players. They still don't expect players to champion 5*, and the vast majority of players don't (and won't ever).

I don't buy it. In the old days we never even had 5* PvP. It was ridiculous. They never showcased the 5* releases. There was no Challenge Node. Now we do. New 5* are for 5* players. SCL10 was for 5* players. They want more 5* players. They told me so. Why do that if the intention is then to act like they are irrelevant.

Anyway - this has veered off topic a bit I fear?

5* PvP and the boosts are designed to sell roster slots. The 5* loaner is the most powerful character many players will have access to. The message, flashing in giant red letters, is "if you ever pull a 5* character you MUST buy a slot for them." Essentials (of all star levels) serve the same purpose -- they're the stick vs the carrot.

Are you guys really not aware of this stuff? Look at random players' rosters in your CL10 brackets, not just those at the top. Count the numbers of champion 5* you see. Join a public alliance that plays every day.

Stop looking up and start looking down -- you'll be amazed at how far off the ground you are

I am in a casual alliance that plays everyday which welcomes new players. We have plenty mixture of different level players. I never look at the top of brackets because I don't play competitively. I think you subscribe to a version of this game based circa 2015 and are largely divorced from reality. You are 550 player - how could you have any idea about what players at the lower end do? I see it everyday in my Alliance. I think you might be the one surprised.

How casual is your casual alliance? Is it public? Where do you place in PvP and PvE?

BoyWonder1914

@entrailbucket said:

Are you guys really not aware of this stuff? Look at random players' rosters in your CL10 brackets, not just those at the top. Count the numbers of champion 5* you see. Join a public alliance that plays every day.

Stop looking up and start looking down -- you'll be amazed at how far off the ground you are

Lol, I'm #212 in my Honor Among Thieves CL10 bracket. I can see players 202-221, and only 2 of them DON'T have 5-star rosters. I think you have it backwards, and more players are in this tier than you think.

DAZ0273

@entrailbucket said:

@HoundofShadow said:
Let me correct myself, it's ~4000. I asked the dev this question.

And as for whether we are important, I also asked similar question, which got answered.

1) How many Shang-Chis have been champed or fully covered during this anniversary?

1. Looks like ~4,000.

2) How do you and your team deal with players' feedbacks that contradict one another? How do you determine which group of players to listen to?

2. This is probably the toughest thing we do! The voices of the players do truly drive this game, but as you point out they so often differ from one another. What we strive to do is identify the voices. Not the individuals, but the vantage points. You'll have extremely late game players revile a feature that is welcomed and targeted at an entirely different class of player. Again, every voice matters and changes our thinking on how we proceed. If we feel we have a strong and flexible solution that can keep all of the player groups at least neutral whilst benefiting the feature's target, it's a win. When it's not so easy, we slow things down and keep working the problem. As for how we determine what group of players to listen to, I often times think it's more important to look at how we listen to them. Reddit, the forums, Discord, etc all have varried groups of vocal individuals, but there are more ways to communicate about this game. In addition to written words, we look at tons of data and use it to manifest voices of our less vocal player groups.

Did you really expect them to say "Nope, you don't matter at all. We hate you and disregard everything you say."

They're going to serve the largest group of players, because doing otherwise would be insane.

More than 4000 players champed Shang Chi. The 5* tier is growing every day. The Devs directly caused that, it wasn't an accident. There must be some reason?

The group of players you are always talking about, the ones who make death threats and have 100 million CP on tap are not necessarily the core 5* player base anymore. It is changing and evolving and expanding.

entrailbucket

There are 10-15,000 currently active alliances, and tons of everyday players aren't even in an alliance.