***** Jeffrey (Symbiote) *****

Scofie

@Daredevil217 said:

@Scofie said:
Also counters Grockitty and Brolaris pretty well....

But why bring this 5* to counter those characters when Chasm counters them and every other character so much better? He doesn’t need 6 AP and to then choose a tile type. He just stuns them before they can drop any tiles and deals big damage before turn 1.

To try and keep it on topic... 😉

I fear every thread about a new character can descend into 1) it's not a good enough Chasm counter or 2) it's not a good as Chasm. I get the meta impact and, having read most of the posts on this forum since Chasm was released, I understand the views of a number of different forum members on him and his power set. I've not played with him much at all but I know his powers better than most other 5*s.

So to get back on the point - there's more to every new character than Chasm. What about their use in PvE? What's his utility in their release event or the first one they appear in? Who is the mystery 4* they will feed/be fed by?

Let's have a slightly different or at least a diverse conversation rather than the 2 points above.

Daredevil217

To compare a previewed character to the established meta (Chasm or otherwise) and say “is this better than what we have?” Or “does this counter what we run into every day?” feels perfectly on topic. For those that don’t champ them all, is this person bringing something that I don’t get elsewhere? If not, is this person worth chasing? What is the added value? I mean if this isn’t the thread to have those conversations, I’m not sure where they are. Not everything that mentions the C-word (no not that) is inherently bad/off-topic. But that’s fine. I’ll politely bow out. Without numbers, this character looks bad. Once I champ and get a chance to play them I’ll post very thorough thoughts in my rankings guide (cheap plug for my updated guide for folks that don’t go to the character discussion section often… now THATs off-topic).

AlexR

Yeah, Gritty and BRB are better countered by Chasm's turn1 stun. That's the whole reason he has that in the first place. And for Chasm himself, as mentioned, it's very debateable whether it will work on since he makes tiles passively and quickly and a few tiles are already enough to get him to revive, while this is an active ability that requires AP. History suggests that the math on that one usually doesn't check out.

The one I'm interested in how this character performs against is Mthor. I'm guessing the way this green is supposed to work vs her is that her charged tiles keep piling up, then you fire green, it blows all of them up (denying them for Mthor's own high-damage yellow) and heals you, bouncing you back from the damage you've taken from her cascades.

Unlike abyss tiles, some charged tiles piling up on the board don't harm you immediately. So a cheap active ability vs her passive generation isn't at as much of a disadvantage (though it... still is, obviously, being an active vs a passive.). And while the charged tiles will come back quickly as well, if you can blow them up multiple times, that's a plus not a downside. Might be intended as a way to mitigate the RNG-based nature of being on the receiving end of Mthor's cascades.

Whether that actually works in practise remains to be seen. I remain skeptical of all attempts to use actives to counter passives. It usually never works. The passive always outpaces the active by a lot.

Are there any 5* actives that are used commonly and make SAP tiles/charged tiles this could be more reliably used on as a counter?

dianetics

I will reserve judgement until the numbers are released, but I think this is a low - mid tier hero.

The purple is expensive and does not feel fit for the 5* tier. Not many heroes are creating multiple SAP tiles per turn. It’s going to be not good against BRB since it will just feed him.

His red looks to be ok?

Green is the best power, but how often are we flooding the board. He might be decent against RiRi and Thor to clear out the board.

I don’t see a slot for him in PvE and very minimal use in pick 3 PvP. I get the same feeling I got about Abigail Brand. He will be better than her just waiting to see the numbers.

Scofie

@Daredevil217 said:
To compare a previewed character to the established meta (Chasm or otherwise) and say “is this better than what we have?” Or “does this counter what we run into every day?” feels perfectly on topic. For those that don’t champ them all, is this person bringing something that I don’t get elsewhere? If not, is this person worth chasing? What is the added value? I mean if this isn’t the thread to have those conversations, I’m not sure where they are. Not everything that mentions the C-word (no not that) is inherently bad/off-topic. But that’s fine. I’ll politely bow out. Without numbers, this character looks bad. Once I champ and get a chance to play them I’ll post very thorough thoughts in my rankings guide (cheap plug for my updated guide for folks that don’t go to the character discussion section often… now THATs off-topic).

Definitely don't bow out of the conversation! My comment wasn't directed at you or anyone else - the vast majority of posts on these threads fall into the Chasm debate and whilst it's not off-topic, it shouldn't be the only topic.

Agree all those conversations you list above are worth having in this thread. That was my (slightly clumsy) point - let's have those conversations!

And I think your rankings guide is great. You should link it in this thread once you've had chance to play with them and write it up. 🙂

Bad

For PvE, pretty bad as healing characters, even true healing, will require time and a lot of special tiles from the enemy.
For pvp, a lot worse, as I don't see any threat in that toolkit, AI will waste their green power, and probably the match damage increase and the affiliation match damage decreasing will be bugged as the characters I mentioned, so in pvp this character will be a funny cupcake.
That explains what I said on my first post: a character seemingly designed for another game.
Vs chasm it can mitigate the hard punishment chahulk inflicts but the slow down and easy retail will make it not viable for competitive players.

Pwuz_

Let’s pretend for a brief second that this character was released BEFORE Chasm. “Ability 3 - 6 Green AP
Select a tile type: Strike, Attack, Protect, Charged, or Web tiles. Convert them to basic tiles, then increase match damage by 1% and heal by 2% per tile converted.”

What an interesting ability. Perhaps it’ll help with BRB teams and mThor. 6 ap is pretty cheap.

Now you can go back to irrationally defending Chasm or rightfully complaining that on the off chance you ever have enough AP to cast this against Chasm it’s effects won’t last long enough to prevent him from refilling the board next turn.

I don’t think we need Chasm removed from the game, but a small nerf (like limiting the number of Abyss tiles spawned per turn) would absolutely change the dynamics of how he dominates every conversation about new characters.

Bad

Yeah but chasm is in this thread precisely because devs are trying to sell this character as another chasm counter.
And it's this case because chasm is broken and overpowered.
So in this case chasm was there before the egg and the chicken.

dianetics

He’s just another character with a piece of his kit that can go after Chasm.
Chasm himself isn’t the problem though. It’s the revives. The devs still have not figured out what I have been saying for months. They have to punish revives. Everything else isn’t going to work.

Scofie

@Bad said:
Yeah but chasm is in this thread precisely because devs are trying to sell this character as another chasm counter.
And it's this case because chasm is broken and overpowered.
So in this case chasm was there before the egg and the chicken.

Actually, Ice specifically said it was no more a counter to Chasm than it was to several other characters. I get you see Chasm everywhere, and therefore it might appeal to many more people as a Chasm counter, but to say that's how it's being sold isn't true.

Codex

@Pwuz_ said:

I don’t think we need Chasm removed from the game, but a small nerf (like limiting the number of Abyss tiles spawned per turn) would absolutely change the dynamics of how he dominates every conversation about new characters.

Imo, nerfing chasm is NOT the answer. By doing so you are affecting the utility of the counters they have made.

HM bugged power solves chasm's revive.

Kang ap drain prevention solves the ap drain from chasm.

New character green ability solves the abyss and web tiles chasm creates.

Wong solves something in chasm's kit but I no idea what. But the dev's do.

Magik solves I think the high health of chasm and revives with permanent damage.

At this point I can reliably predict the next 5* will have anti stun kit.

mani82

So u mean to say u need a magical yet wonky kang who hits like a monkey unlikely to happen ☺️

mani82

The problem is most of the big C counters are all in bits and pieces and if they are rolled into one we l have a bigger problem

dianetics

Most of the chasm counters work when he isn’t with an immortal bro. No iHulk no iShulk no problem the counters bury him.

The devs need to go after the synergy. Punish revive or only allow 1 revive character per team.
It’s a easy fix they just aren’t willing to do it.

HoundofShadow

If this new standalone 5* can allow some anti Chasm players to do this in real life, it's a successful counter, and that is:

That player is starting a match against Chasm/iHulk but they need to go to the toilet. So, they pass the phone to their kids or little cousins or anyone who don't know MPQ to play the match for them. After they are back, they would have already defeated Chasm/iHulk by making random matches with that character.

As long as any Chasm counter doesn't achieve such scenario, it's a failed counter. Then, it's up to the dev to decide how low they want to lower the bar in dealing with meta team of the present and of the future. I mean, the dev has given Bad the counter that he wants, but he's still unhappy. He wants something that can also counter team stun and passive damage. So, he's still on the nerf Chasm train despite the dev fulfilling 80% of his dream counters.

And again, his green affects friendly tiles as well. It doesn't need to be enemy tiles. So, you don't need to wait for enemy to flood the board with tiles.

entrailbucket

Oh right, this one again.

So it's totally fine for players to start a match using Chasm/Hulk, against any other team in the game, randomly tap at the screen for a minute and win with full health? But wanting a counter that does the same thing, except only against Chasm, is whining and asking too much?

If you don't like passives that win the game with zero player input, you must really hate Chasm!

HoundofShadow

If you want something that do exactly the same thing, you're merely changing the flavour of the problem. It's still the same problem and players will ask that new counter to be nerfed. I think the dev should just move on and release the new meta so that we have a nerf thread for the next meta team. If they nerf Chasm, it's as good as admitting they are a failure.

Domsouth04

Any guesses on WHO?! This isn’t a thread about Chasm

SaltnPeppa

Is this Jeff the Land Shark?

If so, that clue is HORRIBLE!! Why are you devs using pop culture references? Why not comic references? Not everyone watches SNL or 60+ years old.

Might as well reference the Trump indictment for your next clue.

Bowgentle

@HoundofShadow said:
If you want something that do exactly the same thing, you're merely changing the flavour of the problem. It's still the same problem and players will ask that new counter to be nerfed. I think the dev should just move on and release the new meta so that we have a nerf thread for the next meta team. If they nerf Chasm, it's as good as admitting they are a failure.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with admitting you made a mistake.
Doubling up on it for 7 months by releasing "counters", now that's a mistake.