Character Rebalance - 5* Wasp (Hope Van Dyne) (Live 2/16)

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  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,275 Chairperson of the Boards

    @Bowgentle said:

    @KGB said:
    As Hound mentioned, there is a Winfine possibility on Black if you can get a Black battery to get it started (you'd need to cast Blue at least once for the 4+ swarm tile requirement).

    That seems like it will be way she will be most viable.

    KGB

    For softcappers, maybe.

    "Softcappers Nazi's, I hate these guys"

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,821 Chairperson of the Boards

    Looks like the rest of the buffs -- usable when boosted. Her yellow ability is still pretty bad. I understand why that has to be expensive, I just can't imagine a circumstance where I'd want to do that.

    I think the actual power here is in a (relatively) cheap blue and black sticking annoying locked tiles on the board that pump up her (now-modern) match damage.

    I think these would get much, much better reception if they were coordinated with boost weeks.

  • Sekilicious
    Sekilicious Posts: 1,766 Chairperson of the Boards

    If they release Hope's father as a 5 and 3 perhaps he will put out Swarms passively and we will like her more. I await the day MrF can tells us all we were sleeping while he played the long game.

  • allen_koholic
    allen_koholic Posts: 103 Tile Toppler
    edited February 2023

    I don't think this is going to make Wasp any better. She's still trash tier.

    Honestly, I was really hoping that she'd just get a complete, 100% rework from the ground up. The swarm tile mechanic doesn't seem super effective. Tacking it onto Janet and Scott doesn't make it more appealing. If they actually did something really good, maybe it would be different. She should have had a passive that upped team damage based on the number of swarm tiles.

  • Tiger_Wong
    Tiger_Wong Posts: 1,056 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited February 2023

    I haven’t checked the rest of the Swarmers but it looks like her black passive (put 2 swarm tiles out when you gain ______ health) is gone. That….. kinda sucks. I REALLY liked that ability as I figured out how to put 2 swarm tiles on turn 1 and 4 or 5 on turn 2.

    But…… I’ll check it out and see how it goes.

  • froggerjohn
    froggerjohn Posts: 373 Mover and Shaker

    Currently, trying to steal a 0 AP pool will create a Swarm tile, when it should only do that when it actually steals AP from that pool.

    Since that 'fix' would make the effect fizzle on both fronts, wouldn't it be way better to not select 0-AP pools to steal from in the first place?!?

  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards

    After trying out her bugged version with with the bugged ap cost, I say I'm pretty confident in her infinite black aoe. This should be especially good for 3-4 wave nodes.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,821 Chairperson of the Boards

    @froggerjohn said:

    Currently, trying to steal a 0 AP pool will create a Swarm tile, when it should only do that when it actually steals AP from that pool.

    Since that 'fix' would make the effect fizzle on both fronts, wouldn't it be way better to not select 0-AP pools to steal from in the first place?!?

    Yeah, this is really annoying, and what's funny is that they've fixed it for other characters. Chasm only destroys AP from colors you have (he cannot ever hit an empty pool), and we've still got these abilities that can hit empty pools.

    It's fine with, like, OBW where she steals everything, but abilities that steal/drain specific colors or random colors need to do something.

    Actually, let's generalize: active abilities need to DO SOMETHING. This isn't complicated.

  • Mr_F
    Mr_F Posts: 744 Critical Contributor
    edited February 2023

    @BlackBoltRocks
    And that is when I think many fails to understand. It looks like many has expected kit rework, overhaul or being completly new, not just "simple" changes.

    But, for me, it looks ike BCS is not doing reworks with this changes. They do rebalances/updates. They are not taking the chara's kit and making it completly new (reworking it). They take the existing one and updates it/make it stronger. That is why Kingpin's and Banner's upgrades looks better: their's kits were better from the start. Wasp's kit - YES, I am saying it - was bad, very bad from the start.

    When I look at all of the changes to old chara's since Banner rebalances, all I see is the same: BCS keeps the kit's idea/spirit, fix the major issues or stupidities (like BB's Graaagh not giving AP) and buff /update the kit. In the end, the kit overall is the same or very similar. And that is what they did with Wasp too. Yes, the scope of changes is bigger cause they decide to make all of their powers have diffirent power transformation.

    That is why Swarms tiles were most likely to stay. That is why most of her kits do the same. Does it mean they could not make it better/stronger? Propably nope. Couldn't her power be cheaper? I dunno. Did not saw kit's formulas to make any statement in this. Did not participated in tests nor did I have given any ideas, opinions etc. to dev'e teams as BCS has never consulted any changes with me (it's not like they should or have any reason to do such thing - even as a Wasp player I am just a random player here and do not have rights to be treated better than anyone else).

    Before the changes, I have never have done more than single target 14k damage with her. And that is her minimum AoE on blue now with similar AP cost. I now frequently heal 14k+with her black. I can easier keep up with swarm tiles being on board. Multiple times did massive damage on black.

    I really do overall see massive improvement here.

    @entrailbucket said:
    Looks like the rest of the buffs -- usable when boosted. Her yellow ability is still pretty bad. I understand why that has to be expensive, I just can't imagine a circumstance where I'd want to do that.

    I think the actual power here is in a (relatively) cheap blue and black sticking annoying locked tiles on the board that pump up her (now-modern) match damage.

    I think these would get much, much better reception if they were coordinated with boost weeks.

    I can agree with that.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,821 Chairperson of the Boards

    It's pretty simple. If we're rating characters on a scale from 1 to 10, most 5* are in the 7-10 range. Wasp went from, like, a 3, to a 7. That's a big jump, and it's meaningful.

    Except there's 6 or 7 characters that break the scale and rate at 14 or 15. If you compare everyone to those guys, then of course 7s and 8s look terrible and useless -- they are, in fact, terrible and useless.

    If the scale maxed out at 10 everyone would be happy with Wasp.

  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,454 Chairperson of the Boards

    I took Team: The Swarm Team into today's challenge node Getting Out of Dodge against 4* Carnage/Brute/Carrier at level 530, and it wiped several times on the first pass. So maybe once Wa5p gets the rest of her update it could be different, but it certainly isn't a viable SCL10 play right now. I do like the idea of adding swarm synergy. I was a little confused by Ant-Mans "3-turn locked swarm tiles" doing something without any visible counter. Is that a bug (lol)?

  • Mr_F
    Mr_F Posts: 744 Critical Contributor

    @ThaRoadWarrior said:
    I was a little confused by Ant-Mans "3-turn locked swarm tiles" doing something without any visible counter. Is that a bug (lol)?

    Tap the tile to see CD. Icel in his thread has said it will be fixed in future.

    Also I never expected for Wasp and Swarm Team to be effective in CN. I am a dreamer but not that big one.

  • Vhailorx
    Vhailorx Posts: 6,085 Chairperson of the Boards

    @KGB said:
    As Hound mentioned, there is a Winfine possibility on Black if you can get a Black battery to get it started (you'd need to cast Blue at least once for the 4+ swarm tile requirement).

    That seems like it will be way she will be most viable.

    KGB

    Is it really infinite though? You get 1 Black ap per 2 swarm tiles. You are capped at 12 swarm tiles and all of you swarm tile spawns are disabled as soon as 4+ tiles are out. Am I missing something?

    Maybe with swarm spawning partners you coupd get to 12, but will you ever be able to get to 14 for a truly infinite engine?

  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,454 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited February 2023

    5torm would likely be the key to that engine; potentially Domino but she'd be much less reliable. Using Heimdall to reduce the cost of black down to 3 over time could possibly help.

  • Vhailorx
    Vhailorx Posts: 6,085 Chairperson of the Boards

    @BlackBoltRocks said:
    For me, the disappointment at this rework is twofold.

    First, ever since BC took over, all the 5s that have been released under them have been solid at worse. Even Arcade has some utility and use; he’s notably better than Wasp and Mehneto. They’ve given us characters who are either meta, near there, or who can at least hold their own against many meta characters.

    Second, their reworks of 5s until now has also been solid. As someone mentioned, characters like Surfer, Banner, and Phoenix, while not meta, have been given a new lease of life. When you see them on the enemy team, they might not be as scary as iHulk+Chasm, but you know you won’t be having an easy ride. Plus BC has shown they can take a near-rubbish character and make them decent; just look at Buffpin, who I would say is quite solid now. He gave me quite a bit of trouble in the recent challenge node. The most “meh” rework before this under BC was IM46, and even then he’s still somewhat decent. I’d rank FirstCap’s and Gambit’s fixes as just above IM46.

    With these, it’s reasonable that the playerbase had high hopes for Wasp. Everyone knew she was DOA the instant she was announced. When we learnt she was finally getting buffed, we were quietly optimistic. No one was expecting her to be the next meta character who passively prevented enemies from reviving (though I don’t think anyone would have minded if she did!); we just wanted her to be solid, sitting alongside the likes of Banner and Buffpin.

    And then we got this.

    I think it's telling that the two worst reworks are the ones that retained fatally flawed mechanics from the original design without any changes (team IM damage boosts for IM46 and the high-cost, multi-cast swarm tile idea from wasp). These mechanics are just not useful in MPQ, even if they are fine on paper. Saving these unique systems is nice for flavor, but leaving them with most of their original functionality intact severely compromised the reworks because these systems are so poorly designed for this game.

    Compare IM46 and Wasp to doc oc's green wirk. Release versions are all similarly terrible and convoluted. But the reworked doc oc green solved most of the problems by making the power MUCH cheaper and giving it some benefit even if matched away (so its very frailty became something of an asset). It's not meta by any means, but it is usable while still giving him a unique flavor.

  • DyingLegend
    DyingLegend Posts: 1,208 Chairperson of the Boards

    She is still way to expensive for abilities. She can easily be taken out before getting off a 17 black AP AOE, i mean come on.

    The ability cost should just be the initial price and the swarm tiles change the abilities, but not the cost.
    There are plenty of ways to keep her AP under control. I don't see this making her any more viable then she already is.

    Disappointing to say the least, but atleast you guys tried.

  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,454 Chairperson of the Boards

    I tend to disagree with the Doc Ock rework - I personally thought his green was super fun in his original iteration even if it was very hard to pull off. He is right there with Robbie Reyes where the "fun" mechanic of the original character was sacrificed to the mediocrity of basic improvements to his other powers. But I am likely in the minority there.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,821 Chairperson of the Boards

    @Vhailorx said:

    @BlackBoltRocks said:
    For me, the disappointment at this rework is twofold.

    First, ever since BC took over, all the 5s that have been released under them have been solid at worse. Even Arcade has some utility and use; he’s notably better than Wasp and Mehneto. They’ve given us characters who are either meta, near there, or who can at least hold their own against many meta characters.

    Second, their reworks of 5s until now has also been solid. As someone mentioned, characters like Surfer, Banner, and Phoenix, while not meta, have been given a new lease of life. When you see them on the enemy team, they might not be as scary as iHulk+Chasm, but you know you won’t be having an easy ride. Plus BC has shown they can take a near-rubbish character and make them decent; just look at Buffpin, who I would say is quite solid now. He gave me quite a bit of trouble in the recent challenge node. The most “meh” rework before this under BC was IM46, and even then he’s still somewhat decent. I’d rank FirstCap’s and Gambit’s fixes as just above IM46.

    With these, it’s reasonable that the playerbase had high hopes for Wasp. Everyone knew she was DOA the instant she was announced. When we learnt she was finally getting buffed, we were quietly optimistic. No one was expecting her to be the next meta character who passively prevented enemies from reviving (though I don’t think anyone would have minded if she did!); we just wanted her to be solid, sitting alongside the likes of Banner and Buffpin.

    And then we got this.

    I think it's telling that the two worst reworks are the ones that retained fatally flawed mechanics from the original design without any changes (team IM damage boosts for IM46 and the high-cost, multi-cast swarm tile idea from wasp). These mechanics are just not useful in MPQ, even if they are fine on paper. Saving these unique systems is nice for flavor, but leaving them with most of their original functionality intact severely compromised the reworks because these systems are so poorly designed for this game.

    Compare IM46 and Wasp to doc oc's green wirk. Release versions are all similarly terrible and convoluted. But the reworked doc oc green solved most of the problems by making the power MUCH cheaper and giving it some benefit even if matched away (so its very frailty became something of an asset). It's not meta by any means, but it is usable while still giving him a unique flavor.

    I disagree about the IM46 rework. When he's boosted and sufficiently high level, the sheer numbers are overwhelming enough that you can ignore the fact that everything is still clunky and overcosted.

    He's terrible when not boosted, so he's right in line with 95% of the tier. I assume Wasp will be the same.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,821 Chairperson of the Boards

    The fact is, it's just not all that hard for a 5* to be passably useful in MPQ with a +100lvl buff.

    Look at Colossus. His passive gives him high match damage and (effectively) high health, and he has one terrible active ability and one ok one. That's enough to make him usable unboosted!

    IM46, when boosted, has high health and match damage, plus active powers that cost too much but have big numbers. That's boring, but it's actually enough.

    And like honestly, it's impossible to overstate just how bad these guys were pre-buff. I had IM46 at 550 before the buff, and at lvl672, he was worse than modern 450s. It was embarrassing for them to be giving these guys as "rewards" and I'm glad they're doing something here, even if they're not turning them all into Chasm.

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