***** Shang-Chi (Origin) *****

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Comments

  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,451 Chairperson of the Boards
    TheEyeDoctorsWife said:
    This doesn’t even look like the character Shang Chi in the comics . Are we now making 5* based on 1 movie’s denigration of a character present in Marvel for 48 years ?!
    Historically the MCU tie in releases look like they do in the MCU. Same for the old Netflix releases like Hobofist.
  • MadScientist
    MadScientist Posts: 317 Mover and Shaker
    You should have used Howard's green during your infinity cycle  o:)
  • Kwahder
    Kwahder Posts: 180 Tile Toppler
    What interests me about the character is that he appears to be designed as a winfinite engine. The devs have previously nerfed characters in order to stop winfinite occurring; have they changed their minds?
  • Bad
    Bad Posts: 3,146 Chairperson of the Boards
    Kwahder said:
    What interests me about the character is that he appears to be designed as a winfinite engine. The devs have previously nerfed characters in order to stop winfinite occurring; have they changed their minds?
    Imo carol5 appeared before polaris, so that power was too op for a 4* like her and that engine was too easy and autopilot.
    This guy requires some amount of AP and some head scratching on player's behalf. 
    More importantly: end of streak means end of the fun.
    Adds more head scratching then.

  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,451 Chairperson of the Boards
    I'm still completely baffled by the Danver5 nerf tbh; there are loads of other, you might even say better, characters who can perform the exact same role in that engine at every tier of the game. I still feel like there must have been some OP yellow user that they were trying to nerf, though I have a hard time imagining that is Magneto.
  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,820 Chairperson of the Boards
    Kwahder said:
    What interests me about the character is that he appears to be designed as a winfinite engine. The devs have previously nerfed characters in order to stop winfinite occurring; have they changed their minds?
    I think they did change their minds. 

    When they nerfed 3* and later 2* Magneto, 4* Starlord, etc, the game was in a totally different place.  It was much, much slower overall, and those teams were viable options for competition.

    Now, if you're not finishing fights against any level of opponents in a minute or less, you're too slow.

    They also realized that it's pointless to try to design difficult fights.  Remember we used to have the Gauntlet, where you'd need to carefully and strategically choose a team to counter each node.  Infinite teams ruined that because they could beat anything. 

    They don't do difficult fights anymore because we have guys who can just faceroll any fight, against any opponents, in 30 seconds while you watch tv.
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited August 2021
    The last team that started winfinite was Polaris (Sept 2020) and BRB (Feb 2020) + character with (usually) green power that can destroy 12-15 random tiles.

    When I first played, I heard Charlie Angels(??) and Nightcrawler (late 2017). 

    I think it would be nice if there's one new character that creates infinite team a year. 

    This year we had Shang-Chi. I'll probably get to champ him in mid-late December.

    Infinite teams the likes of Shang-Chi requires a lot of thinking and effort, compared to Polaris/BRB/12-16 random tiles destroyer. Therefore, you require more time to finish a match. So, it's unlikely he gets nerfed. 


  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,820 Chairperson of the Boards
    "Winfinite" was a specific team, not a description that applies to any infinite team.  The term dates back to 2014.

    This was back when 3* were the top of the meta.  The team was Mystique/2* Magneto.  Magneto's purple could change a large number of chosen tiles to blue, then Mystique's blue changed tiles to purple. 

    Later people added 4* PX to the mix to do more damage on match-5s and generate AP.  Eventually they nerfed 2* Magneto pretty hard and Mystique a bit more gently.

    I'm not sure when "winfinite" became a generic term though.
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited August 2021
    I did a quick search and March 2017 was probably the earliest.

    https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/comment/657488#Comment_657488

    In this thread, winfinite was defined to be "the opponent never gets a turn." 

    In February 2015,

    "(Winfinite is the term for the MNMags/Mystique combo, used to generate an infinite turn at a certain point in the game.)"

    https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/24431/poll-winfinite


  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,451 Chairperson of the Boards
    There are quite a few teams capable of it, it all comes back to cirular AP generation - so if you can expend AP to create an effect that will generate the AP you need to expend the AP again such that the other team will never get another turn. There is a stunlock variation on this where you can create a condition where the other team will never be able to take another turn due to multi-turn stuns on the whole enemy team. That one gives you a little room to breathe for making supplemental matches, but the end result is the same. The common team for this is 5* Hawkeye/Agent Coulson/4* Gamora, Vulture/Sandman/G4mora can do it too, but there are 5* Iceman teams with impressive stuns, and once upon a time it was possible to have a 0/0/5 Gambit/Thing/Spider-Gwen team that was unbeatable if you couldn't get rid of one of the components before turn 3.

    4* Professor X/3* Scarlet Witch/3* Black Widow was an active turn-denial team so long as you had them all at appropriate levels where purple was your strongest color. Supports came out like Destroyer Gun that allowed you to artificially make someone's strongest color Purple in PVE. The mechanism was that SWitch would create almost a guaranteed match-4/5 condition from her countdown, which would then allow 3* Widow to create a guaranteed match-5 condition that would cause Professor X to create purple to fuel the engine again passively. When Nightcrawler was released, I came up with one that was Nightcrawler/4* X/Domino using the Destroyer Gun on professor x. Nightcrawler being a cascade factory meant that almost any color could generate match-5s for X to then generate enough purple to Bamf!, and then any incoming tiles had a high percentage chance to be black, and there you go. It wasn't 100% reliable, kind of like the old infinite lives trick in Super Mario Bros 1 where you trapped that turtleshell in a jump loop on the stairs in level 3, but it was a fun use of niche characters.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,820 Chairperson of the Boards
    HoundofShadow said:
    I did a quick search and March 2017 was probably the earliest.

    https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/comment/657488#Comment_657488

    In this thread, winfinite was defined to be "the opponent never gets a turn." 

    In February 2015,

    "(Winfinite is the term for the MNMags/Mystique combo, used to generate an infinite turn at a certain point in the game.)"

    https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/24431/poll-winfinite


    I think I was still right about 2014....that post from early 2015 refers to the combo like it's an established thing. 

    I think NorthernPolarity came up with the name.  He wrote some great guides and stuff back then.  At that time, teams got fun creative names, not babytalk junk like Thorkoyebeta or whatever.


    And yeah, there's a bunch of unnerfed infinite teams now.  For the most part nobody uses them because they're just too slow.  I still use Hawkeye/Coulson (with Dr. Strange) on the occasional really difficult challenge node, but only because I'm not racing.
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,451 Chairperson of the Boards
    It's been my experience that they are for particularly troublesome SCL10 challenge nodes now, but I still think they are fun to mess with. Sometimes I'll use teams like that to grind wins in PVP Simulator across the season not expecting to hang on to points.
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    I still remember using my winfinite team of 2* storm, IM40 and Kamala to beat 1st or 2nd clear of  the 1st (?) SCL 10 challenge node. And it took me 25 minutes. With BRB/Polaris/Juggernaut, it took me ~ 5 minutes. I think it's fun to think of ways to get infinite turn. I find Puzzle Ops to be a great and safe event to test out different teams for 5* players. They are nerfed greatly, yet they have 6-figure healthpoints.

    I'm going to use Rogue and Odin in his pvp just to have fun triggering winfinite.
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,451 Chairperson of the Boards
    I’ll be interested to see what happens on that jump in front interaction. Historically it was nothing.
  • TheEyeDoctorsWife
    TheEyeDoctorsWife Posts: 829 Critical Contributor
    Using him today was way too complicated for me , I lost badly the first attempt , won the second with 300 health left and I don’t even know how I was doing damage . Good luck to those smarter than me who can figure out how he’s going to be meta . I’ll bench him 
  • Jimsta_rooney
    Jimsta_rooney Posts: 167 Tile Toppler
    TheEyeDoctorsWife said:
    Using him today was way too complicated for me , I lost badly the first attempt , won the second with 300 health left and I don’t even know how I was doing damage . Good luck to those smarter than me who can figure out how he’s going to be meta . I’ll bench him 
    I'm pretty sure he's going to be, if not meta then pretty close.
    Using him on 2nd node I destroyed gorgon today without even triggering his pink power.
    And in the video you see how easy it is to beat colossus/5witch.
    Im gonna be torn when anniversary comes round that's for sure... 
  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,820 Chairperson of the Boards
    Jimsta_rooney said:
    TheEyeDoctorsWife said:
    Using him today was way too complicated for me , I lost badly the first attempt , won the second with 300 health left and I don’t even know how I was doing damage . Good luck to those smarter than me who can figure out how he’s going to be meta . I’ll bench him 
    I'm pretty sure he's going to be, if not meta then pretty close.
    Using him on 2nd node I destroyed gorgon today without even triggering his pink power.
    And in the video you see how easy it is to beat colossus/5witch.
    Im gonna be torn when anniversary comes round that's for sure... 
    In the video his fastest match against the Defensive Duo is about 4 minutes.  Is that fast enough?  I really don't know.  Also the AI is going to play him terribly, which I think will limit his use in PvP.

    I wouldn't be comfortable making a 4-minute hop with a bad defensive team out, but I don't really hop anymore and I have no idea what the high-scoring slices are like now.

    He *may* end up being the new cupcake all-star, for people who still make cupcakes.  He can beat anything and he's terrible on defense, so he's perfect for that role.

    I don't think he's fast enough to be used in competitive CL10 PvE.  He's definitely powerful enough to be used in non-competitive PvE though.
  • Bad
    Bad Posts: 3,146 Chairperson of the Boards
    Is he not fast? I have some doubts. Possibly with your best meta team he pales in comparison indeed. However if your meta team is lv 500+...
    That it's another story.
    Do you remember killmonger? People usually have him baby champed. And when his godboost came... surprise! Look at how good he was! However the godboost added to a baby champed character it only shows his maxed potential. 
    Possibly nobody will have shang maxed. But the day will come when he will have his godboost. And if at level 560 he deals like 1600 points damage per combo point...then he will be hardly tagged as slow.
  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,820 Chairperson of the Boards
    Bad said:
    Is he not fast? I have some doubts. Possibly with your best meta team he pales in comparison indeed. However if your meta team is lv 500+...
    That it's another story.
    Do you remember killmonger? People usually have him baby champed. And when his godboost came... surprise! Look at how good he was! However the godboost added to a baby champed character it only shows his maxed potential. 
    Possibly nobody will have shang maxed. But the day will come when he will have his godboost. And if at level 560 he deals like 1600 points damage per combo point...then he will be hardly tagged as slow.
    The question wasn't "Is he good?" or "Is he fun?" He is both of those things, and I'm going to enjoy using him! 

    The question was "Is he going to be 'meta?'"

    (A break for a pedantic rant: meta is a noun, not an adjective, at least in the way it's being used here.  It's short for metagame.  A character can't "be metagame," that doesn't make any sense.)

    Generally for a character to be represented in the metagame they have to be fast.  In the predominant PvE meta, competitive players have to run the absolute fastest possible teams.  PvP has always been about speed as well. 

    I think SW/Colossus is able to break this rule because they're very slow to fight. I did completely whiff on my predictions about them -- I didn't think a slow team would ever be widely used.

    I don't think Shang Chi is fast enough for CL10 PvE, I don't think he's fast enough for competitive PvP, and he is unquestionably bad on defense, so I'm going to predict that he will not "be meta."

    I would be happy to be wrong about this one, because it's going to take actual skill and concentration to use him.  I'd like to see that return to MPQ after several years of the game playing itself for you.

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