New Winfinite team ? (Hawkeye + Carol + Coulson)

Polares
Polares Posts: 2,643 Chairperson of the Boards
edited March 2017 in MPQ General Discussion
Maybe it is a bit early to talk about this team when most people has not had time to cover even Coulson but since I saw what this team can do I wanted to talk about it, I have the impression that this is the new Winfinite team. I am talking about:

Hawkeye + Carol + Coulson

There are some small variants, instead of Hawkeye you can use Starlord or instead of Carol you can use GG, but I think this is the most effective version of the team, and the one that should be called Winfinite. Once this team starts firing Hawkeye arrows it has basically won (so by turn 2 or 3 icon_razz.gif). It also makes a big difference when it fires Carol's black, then it has definitely won, no going back from that. It almost doesn't matter the opposing team, the biggest problem this team can have is having not enough blue tiles on the board for Hawkeye arrows! (Bring Iceman purple team ups icon_razz.gif)

So what do you think, is this the ultimate combo in 4-5 land? Can it really be considered winfinite? (you still have to do some matches, but the number of turns needed to win is really small)

This team has a counter though, Strange can really mess this team hard, so this is a good thing, that it is not completely broken / invincible (for sim, etc.), but for PvE I see it as the ultimate weapon. Once you have a Hawkeye with at least two in purple and all the three powers you can start using it (it obviously works best when he is champed), so it is a great great team for transitioners. My Hawkeye is just 1/1/1, my Coulson is 12 covers and it already works against 300 level enemies! Once I champion Coulson and I get 3-4 more Hawkeye covers I think I will be able to beat 5 land scaling.


PS: It is curious than Charlie's angels was one 4 and two 3s, and this one is one 5 and two 4s. And how do we call this one, Carol's brutes? icon_razz.gif
PS: Really, Carol + Coulson is a crazy combination, even adding Starlord the results are already amazing. The other team fires an ability and that's it, they have lost !
«1

Comments

  • Magic
    Magic Posts: 1,199 Chairperson of the Boards
    Winfinite teams don't allow the opponent to play a single turn after the engine is on so this one is not it.

    Would that be the next best combo? It might. I don't have Hawkeye covered so I don't really expect to use it (and the majority of the player base). Now - if Start-Lord can replace him effectively that's a different story. And what about the 3* Hawkguy?
  • Jarvind
    Jarvind Posts: 1,684 Chairperson of the Boards
    Solid team, but "winfinite" usually means the other team never gets a turn. I don't see how that would work here unless they have infinite AP for Coulson to steal. Plus you wouldn't be able to fire Coulson's blue to steal AP if you're flooding the board with Hawkeye arrows.
  • firethorne
    firethorne Posts: 1,505 Chairperson of the Boards
  • Polares
    Polares Posts: 2,643 Chairperson of the Boards
    Magic wrote:
    Winfinite teams don't allow the opponent to play a single turn after the engine is on so this one is not it.

    Would that be the next best combo? It might. I don't have Hawkeye covered so I don't really expect to use it (and the majority of the player base). Now - if Start-Lord can replace him effectively that's a different story. And what about the 3* Hawkguy?

    No 3 Hawkeye. What makes this team a winfinite team is precisely 5 Hawkeye passive (well and Coulson yellow passive). Every countdown that goes off gives AP. And in this team, with so many countdowns, it is A LOT of free AP.

    Maybe I should have described a bit more how it works. Basically Hawkeye fires his super cheap powers creating countdowns, Coulson spawns more countdowns for every power Haweye fires, Haweye fortifies those countdowns, Carol makes those countdowns reach 0 faster, when the countdowns reach 0 Hawkeye and Coulson produce AP, if there are special tiles Carol also strengthens those tiles to infinity and beyond, then the other team dies icon_razz.gif

    So yeah I agree it is not 100% winfinite, but with so many AP produced for free, it almost is! (And probably it is the closest we are going to get in 4-5 land).
    firethorne wrote:

    Yeah this video is a fantastic example. A 9 cover Hawkeye defeats a 550 team, I repeat, a 9 cover 5, with two 4s defeat a 3 5s team at 550 !!!!
  • xidragonxi
    xidragonxi Posts: 253 Mover and Shaker
    I've been lucky to have a 10-cover 5* Hawkeye (and waiting for him to enter Latest tokens so I can finish him), and can confirm that this team is completely bananas. You're right that if Carol gets Black out, it's over. Other people who play nice include Wasp, Starlord, Medusa, Green Goblin, and Professor X instead of Coulson.

    It's also really fun to play with, in addition to being crazy effective. I haven't tried it in PVP yet because my Hawkeye is only level 255 and my MMR would laugh at him, but I have my doubts about how viable it is on defense. Can't wait to give it a go though.
  • DaveR4470
    DaveR4470 Posts: 931 Critical Contributor
    We need a new name for these "infinite, but not always, but probably" setups... Maybe "Winasymptotic"? "Winmost"? "Windows Vista"?
  • GuntherBlobel
    GuntherBlobel Posts: 987 Critical Contributor
    DaveR4470 wrote:
    We need a new name for these "infinite, but not always, but probably" setups... Maybe "Winasymptotic"? "Winmost"? "Windows Vista"?
    Definitely.
    "Super synergy" teams are apparently totally ok with the Devs. It's a nice evolution for the game and I suspect they are purposely designing them this way (whereas it used to be seen as a problem a la Sentry + Daken + Hood).

    But a true Winfinite (no turns for the opponent) is probably still nerf-bait. If you really enjoy a combo, try not to call it Winfinite.
  • MpqTron
    MpqTron Posts: 45 Just Dropped In
    DaveR4470 wrote:
    We need a new name for these "infinite, but not always, but probably" setups... Maybe "Winasymptotic"? "Winmost"? "Windows Vista"?

    Windows Vista works for me. Lovely name for an almost Winfinite teams!
  • SummerGlau
    SummerGlau Posts: 1,027 Chairperson of the Boards
    certainly 3 star hawkeye star lord and 4 star marvel are quite good

    too bad my carol has no black
  • Pongie
    Pongie Posts: 1,410 Chairperson of the Boards
    I'm curious to try this team out since my hawk eye is covered. Too bad my Coulson isn't covered
  • Nylarx
    Nylarx Posts: 77 Match Maker
    Do note that this is happening with the 1 damage Countdown 'glitch', when it gets patched the effectiveness of this team will be significantly reduced.
  • Magic
    Magic Posts: 1,199 Chairperson of the Boards
    Nylarx wrote:
    Do note that this is happening with the 1 damage Countdown 'glitch', when it gets patched the effectiveness of this team will be significantly reduced.
    I have only now be able to watch tje video. As nice as this is it works pretty much because of the glitch as Nylarx points out. It might work ok but it's not going to be super effective without the "glitch".
  • Gmax101
    Gmax101 Posts: 182 Tile Toppler
    am I right in thinking Hawkeye hits Latest Legendary today??
  • Polares
    Polares Posts: 2,643 Chairperson of the Boards
    Magic wrote:
    Nylarx wrote:
    Do note that this is happening with the 1 damage Countdown 'glitch', when it gets patched the effectiveness of this team will be significantly reduced.
    I have only now be able to watch tje video. As nice as this is it works pretty much because of the glitch as Nylarx points out. It might work ok but it's not going to be super effective without the "glitch".

    Why ????

    The combo works perfectly fine without the glitch. The thing that makes this combo 'winfinite' is that you get tons of AP for every countdown that goes off. But regarding damage, Coulson countdowns make damage without the glitch (look at Coulson's blue), Hawkeye countdowns also have their own effect and Carol black countdown also does a tone of damage.

    In fact, I can say the glitch is NOT USED AT ALL by this team...

    So I ask again, why do you think the glitch is helping this combo ????????? Because I don't see it icon_razz.gif
  • Magic
    Magic Posts: 1,199 Chairperson of the Boards
    I am not saying the combo is not working. But in the video when you have already the strike tile out every countdown (and there are plenty) is doing extra damage. With the first strike tile out there is extra 3k damage from the glitch and the tile is boosted. So the next coundown being applied does more and it escalates very quickly.

    Unless it all Coulson's (but they were not only his countdowns) damage that high at max level. I don't know. I suggest you have a close look at the exact figures of damage to see if the glich is part of the show.

    For the record - I still experience the glich in regular play so there is no reason why it wouldn't be there for you. End if it's there than this combo benefits from it almost like no other. One strike tile out and it goes rolling with Carol buffing the tile on each countdown (and there are a lot!!!).
  • babinro
    babinro Posts: 771 Critical Contributor
    This team isn't a winfinite team since it wholly depends on CD tiles expiring but it is very much overpowered.

    We've seen some youtube videos of this in action and it showed that a team of 450's or lower could defeat level 550 5*'s somewhat reliably. That alone should send some major red flags at the power of this trio.

    Having said that, its up to the players and D3 to determine whether or not this is a type of overpowered that's acceptable (like 3* fist purple) or if it's genuinely harmful for the future of the game to the point where it requires a nerf. Since I don't have access to these characters I really don't have a strong opinion on this yet. Having a godly trio means that pvp is safe. In pve it's only a problem if this team is also super fast...otherwise its just another team like OML/PHx that's extremely hard to fail with but may not be fast enough to compete with the top 2%. I realize the trio kills on an early turn but when you consider all the activating triggers, I don't actually know how fast this is compared to other known options.

    In the event D3 decides to nerf I think the obvious candidate here is Hawkeye's AP generating passive. Mass AP gain is always risky. I consider Carol's role in this team to simply be good synergy and feel that her powers are fine. The way I'd nerf Hawkeye if I had to would be to have his passive ONLY TRIGGER ON HIS OWN CD's. Simple and straightforward. As he successfully lands shots his confidence builds and helps him land more shots. It makes sense and doesn't get out of hand.
  • Quebbster
    Quebbster Posts: 8,070 Chairperson of the Boards
    babinro wrote:
    This team isn't a winfinite team since it wholly depends on CD tiles expiring but it is very much overpowered.

    We've seen some youtube videos of this in action and it showed that a team of 450's or lower could defeat level 550 5*'s somewhat reliably. That alone should send some major red flags at the power of this trio.

    Having said that, its up to the players and D3 to determine whether or not this is a type of overpowered that's acceptable (like 3* fist purple) or if it's genuinely harmful for the future of the game to the point where it requires a nerf. Since I don't have access to these characters I really don't have a strong opinion on this yet. Having a godly trio means that pvp is safe. In pve it's only a problem if this team is also super fast...otherwise its just another team like OML/PHx that's extremely hard to fail with but may not be fast enough to compete with the top 2%. I realize the trio kills on an early turn but when you consider all the activating triggers, I don't actually know how fast this is compared to other known options.

    In the event D3 decides to nerf I think the obvious candidate here is Hawkeye's AP generating passive. Mass AP gain is always risky. I consider Carol's role in this team to simply be good synergy and feel that her powers are fine. The way I'd nerf Hawkeye if I had to would be to have his passive ONLY TRIGGER ON HIS OWN CD's. Simple and straightforward. As he successfully lands shots his confidence builds and helps him land more shots. It makes sense and doesn't get out of hand.
    I don't see anything being done about this until a lot of people start using the combo. It will probably be a while.
  • Ruinate
    Ruinate Posts: 528 Critical Contributor
    Polares wrote:
    Magic wrote:
    Nylarx wrote:
    Do note that this is happening with the 1 damage Countdown 'glitch', when it gets patched the effectiveness of this team will be significantly reduced.
    I have only now be able to watch tje video. As nice as this is it works pretty much because of the glitch as Nylarx points out. It might work ok but it's not going to be super effective without the "glitch".

    Why ????

    The combo works perfectly fine without the glitch. The thing that makes this combo 'winfinite' is that you get tons of AP for every countdown that goes off. But regarding damage, Coulson countdowns make damage without the glitch (look at Coulson's blue), Hawkeye countdowns also have their own effect and Carol black countdown also does a tone of damage.

    In fact, I can say the glitch is NOT USED AT ALL by this team...

    So I ask again, why do you think the glitch is helping this combo ????????? Because I don't see it icon_razz.gif

    Um, this team heavily abuses the glitch. With the glitch, damage dealing Cd's double dip with strike tiles. So yes, the glitch is helping this team tremendously.

    Go into a match with Oml (or 4Cage + wasp in venom bomb) and use Starlords pink. A single CD does like 20k to the first target. Its absurd.
  • Polares
    Polares Posts: 2,643 Chairperson of the Boards
    Quebbster wrote:
    babinro wrote:
    This team isn't a winfinite team since it wholly depends on CD tiles expiring but it is very much overpowered.

    We've seen some youtube videos of this in action and it showed that a team of 450's or lower could defeat level 550 5*'s somewhat reliably. That alone should send some major red flags at the power of this trio.

    Having said that, its up to the players and D3 to determine whether or not this is a type of overpowered that's acceptable (like 3* fist purple) or if it's genuinely harmful for the future of the game to the point where it requires a nerf. Since I don't have access to these characters I really don't have a strong opinion on this yet. Having a godly trio means that pvp is safe. In pve it's only a problem if this team is also super fast...otherwise its just another team like OML/PHx that's extremely hard to fail with but may not be fast enough to compete with the top 2%. I realize the trio kills on an early turn but when you consider all the activating triggers, I don't actually know how fast this is compared to other known options.

    In the event D3 decides to nerf I think the obvious candidate here is Hawkeye's AP generating passive. Mass AP gain is always risky. I consider Carol's role in this team to simply be good synergy and feel that her powers are fine. The way I'd nerf Hawkeye if I had to would be to have his passive ONLY TRIGGER ON HIS OWN CD's. Simple and straightforward. As he successfully lands shots his confidence builds and helps him land more shots. It makes sense and doesn't get out of hand.
    I don't see anything being done about this until a lot of people start using the combo. It will probably be a while.

    Well, thing is, you just need to have a champed Carol + Coulson and a 2/1/1 Hawkeye and the combo starts to work (at least for 4 players where scaling is not that crazy), so it is not that hard to have everything in place (it is not that you need to champ three 5s). And champing Carol and Coulson with vaulting is really easy (my Coulson is already cover maxed, just waiting for the iso, in one season!!!)

    It is a bit like Charlie's angels, you need a champed GSBW and Switch, and then just a 5/0/0 ProfX for it to work.

    But the good thing is that I don't consider the combo broken, because the team is easy to defeat (there is a clear counter in Strange or others), and you need 3 chars for it to work best, so it won't affect PvP at all, and as babinro points out, it is not specially fast (or at least it is no faster than using other strong teams). But it is true it might make Gauntlet or other events trivial (like Charlie's angels ... no new thing).
  • Polares
    Polares Posts: 2,643 Chairperson of the Boards
    Ruinate wrote:
    Polares wrote:
    Magic wrote:
    Nylarx wrote:
    Do note that this is happening with the 1 damage Countdown 'glitch', when it gets patched the effectiveness of this team will be significantly reduced.
    I have only now be able to watch tje video. As nice as this is it works pretty much because of the glitch as Nylarx points out. It might work ok but it's not going to be super effective without the "glitch".

    Why ????

    The combo works perfectly fine without the glitch. The thing that makes this combo 'winfinite' is that you get tons of AP for every countdown that goes off. But regarding damage, Coulson countdowns make damage without the glitch (look at Coulson's blue), Hawkeye countdowns also have their own effect and Carol black countdown also does a tone of damage.

    In fact, I can say the glitch is NOT USED AT ALL by this team...

    So I ask again, why do you think the glitch is helping this combo ????????? Because I don't see it icon_razz.gif

    Um, this team heavily abuses the glitch. With the glitch, damage dealing Cd's double dip with strike tiles. So yes, the glitch is helping this team tremendously.

    Go into a match with Oml (or 4Cage + wasp in venom bomb) and use Starlords pink. A single CD does like 20k to the first target. Its absurd.

    As far as I knew (I might be wrong) I thought the bug made all countdowns do damage, but if the countdown was already doing damage I thought it didn't do extra damage, so no double tap. This is why I was explaining that almost all countdowns already do damage in this combo so no need for the glitch to exist.

    If they double tap, then yes, it is making the combo go faster, BUT the combo doesn't need the glitch for it to work. When you have 10 countdowns on the board, all doing damage and giving you AP, with a couple of Carol Strikes on the board all of them 5k+ damage, you don't need to double tap to kill anybody.