Suddenly...weekly boosted 5*s

Bad

This one pvp was clearly for vets. If this feature continues, 5* players will be a bit more balanced as there will not be the huge difference in time.
This pvp had no other name, nor it was a special event incoming, so it would be safe to say new 4 5*s will have their chance, if people keeps playing it when apocalypse shards wont be a reward. And quake not stopping ihulk.
Despite I could not take advantage of it, I think it was a funny event and finally playing other characters for once, so I kind of enjoyed the experience.
And I used polaris a long time, so I can confirm 4*s can have his time, obviously along a strong 5* tanking them.
Overall I think it is a positive feature and helps collecting players and allows diverse gameplay. And it can helps others to pass to 5* land.
 I can confirm this event was quite populated.

Borstock

It's important to keep in mind that this PvP utilizes Quake. The Hulkoye teams are still going to be viable.

KGB

Bad said:

This one pvp was clearly for vets. If this feature continues, 5* players will be a bit more balanced as there will not be the huge difference in time.

It's definitely not a 1 time PvP. The next PvP featuring Lizard is already up and has the same boosted characters. So the 5* boost is clearly a weekly boost and not a single event. Whether it continues after this week is the next question to be answered.

The Lizard PvP and future 3* PvP will be a lot different than this one was where you could have a L400-500 Quake as the 3rd character who at least has semi-interesting powers with her Blue and AoE prevention.

As a 4* player I hit my normal 900 points. Took a few more skips and I saw about 20% of the teams using OML/Phoenix/Surfer/BSSM as opposed to normally seeing none of them. But I had a 420 Quake to absorb plenty of match damage. Not sure how it's going to go in the Lizard PvP where I won't have that.

KGB

SnowcaTT

entrailbucket said:

This event is probably the most fun I've had in 7 years of playing MPQ.  With lvl672 OML and lvl668 Phoenix, I'm *trivially* beating everything, including the "meta" characters at 550. 

I downed a lvl550 Okoye on the first turn with one cascade.  I've won multiple fights against 500+ teams before they were able to move the board. 

Most fights I don't even have to cast a power, I just kill everyone with match damage.  I've done about 90 matches so far and haven't used a health pack yet.

If this keeps up it completely changes the game.

.....so you're saying you enjoyed being able to bully everyone with bigger characters than everyone else had?

I think I understand why players hoarded for the best 550 characters now.

SnowcaTT

Sekilicious said:

Lol. Even at one cover, boosted 5* characters are insane with Chavez. Even 4* champs are extremely vulnerable. 

Chavez/5* is -by far- the most common team I saw outside of the atypical.

Lots of the same teams, honestly. And those that were on 450+ (usually saw base 563-590 range) seemed to quickly change back....confirming my belief that the top 5-10 5*'s play like 600's, and 600+ is going to be where you need to be if it's not a meta-5 already.

To the discussion of "changes happen" - yes they do. If you've been around this game long enough, things change, metas change, ways of playing change. And every time these changes are made without any heads-up, without any communication, players get upset. Change is hard (life tip, everyone) - and if the devs want people to handle it better, maybe some "here's what's coming" and a slow roll-out would be better.

I haven't actually heard: is permanent 5* boost every week confirmed? Because if not, this would be a great test to show who should be buffed, and by how much.

I see several old-time/long-time players back and "having fun" like entrailbucket here. That's great!

But new players can't have the same fun: they don't have those old characters at all, much less big. And the old players are going to stop having fun here in a couple weeks when it rotates off of 'their' characters.....and their rotation doesn't return for another couple months. Back to retirement?

Seems like a better way to retain players - to get them playing, to keep them playing - would be to get all characters balanced - old and new alike. Buffs over boosts.

entrailbucket

SnowcaTT said:

Sekilicious said:

Lol. Even at one cover, boosted 5* characters are insane with Chavez. Even 4* champs are extremely vulnerable. 

Chavez/5* is -by far- the most common team I saw outside of the atypical.

Lots of the same teams, honestly. And those that were on 450+ (usually saw base 563-590 range) seemed to quickly change back....confirming my belief that the top 5-10 5*'s play like 600's, and 600+ is going to be where you need to be if it's not a meta-5 already.

To the discussion of "changes happen" - yes they do. If you've been around this game long enough, things change, metas change, ways of playing change. And every time these changes are made without any heads-up, without any communication, players get upset. Change is hard (life tip, everyone) - and if the devs want people to handle it better, maybe some "here's what's coming" and a slow roll-out would be better.

I haven't actually heard: is permanent 5* boost every week confirmed? Because if not, this would be a great test to show who should be buffed, and by how much.

I see several old-time/long-time players back and "having fun" like entrailbucket here. That's great!

But new players can't have the same fun: they don't have those old characters at all, much less big. And the old players are going to stop having fun here in a couple weeks when it rotates off of 'their' characters.....and their rotation doesn't return for another couple months. Back to retirement?

Seems like a better way to retain players - to get them playing, to keep them playing - would be to get all characters balanced - old and new alike. Buffs over boosts.

It would be nice if they were able to balance all the characters, but it'd be a ton of work for them and it's not actually possible anyway.  There will always be a best two, people will always solve the meta in a few days, and we'll go back to the same thing we had before. 

The only way to actually achieve diversity is to have the best characters change every week.  You won't have diversity *within that week*, of course, but you'll have it overall, and that's the only way you can accomplish this.

I'd also point out that many relatively new players do have the old characters and were using them to great success.  Some smarter new players don't have those guys at all because they chose not to have them, but that was a choice they made.

Bad

If they continue the same rotation in 3 months all 5*s will be featured. I think it is positive for game diversity, and many players can enjoy more characters.
Still in other thread I advocated for a rebalance. Other user said more buffs, it seem devs liked that idea, it is the easy way.
However to rebalance a classic 5* unplayable it would be quite easy: increase his match damage in at least 300, give him 60k health, and set his powers at 9AP maximum.
Because when the buff changes, those characters will return to being unplayable.

entrailbucket

Bad said:

If they continue the same rotation in 3 months all 5*s will be featured. I think it is positive for game diversity, and many players can enjoy more characters.
Still in other thread I advocated for a rebalance. Other user said more buffs, it seem devs liked that idea, it is the easy way.
However to rebalance a classic 5* unplayable it would be quite easy: increase his match damage in at least 300, give him 60k health, and set his powers at 9AP maximum.
Because when the buff changes, those characters will return to being unplayable.

I understand your dream and I don't disagree with the vision, but the MPQ meta doesn't work that way and it never has.

Imagine the devs adjust power levels on some old character like OML.  There are only two relevant outcomes there: either he becomes better than one of the current best two or he doesn't.  If he breaks into the best two, there will be a period where people figure out the new meta, and then everyone will run OML/x other character.

If he gets better but isn't good enough to be in the best two, he stays on the bench forever, just as before.  Any time they spent rebalancing is wasted.

If their goal is to truly make every character relevant (which is a thing they should want, because it makes them money), the only option is to continuously adjust power levels.  There are games that do that, but they have dedicated staff that handle metagame balancing. 

Short of making a big investment like that, the only realistic option they have is quasi-random short-term monster boosts.

SnowcaTT

entrailbucket said:
If their goal is to truly make every character relevant (which is a thing they should want, because it makes them money), the only option is to continuously adjust power levels.  There are games that do that, but they have dedicated staff that handle metagame balancing. 

How does making characters that aren't in latest making them money? Seems like that's where all the buyers are dropping cash on.

I think this change is done somewhat for the big whales: those who have really big [many characters] as opposed to just a few were having a rough time vs those with one 550 (Okoye, of course).

However I also think it's short-sighted: why would you start super whaling now when the characters you are buying are only going to be 'the best' once every 15 weeks or so. Sounds like a way to make new money stop coming in.

UNLESS there was a regular rotating 5* vault that let you get whatever characters are currently featured. Hmmm....

entrailbucket

SnowcaTT said:

entrailbucket said:
If their goal is to truly make every character relevant (which is a thing they should want, because it makes them money), the only option is to continuously adjust power levels.  There are games that do that, but they have dedicated staff that handle metagame balancing. 

How does making characters that aren't in latest making them money? Seems like that's where all the buyers are dropping cash on.

I think this change is done somewhat for the big whales: those who have really big [many characters] as opposed to just a few were having a rough time vs those with one 550 (Okoye, of course).

However I also think it's short-sighted: why would you start super whaling now when the characters you are buying are only going to be 'the best' once every 15 weeks or so. Sounds like a way to make new money stop coming in.

UNLESS there was a regular rotating 5* vault that let you get whatever characters are currently featured. Hmmm....

Two reasons, at the lower tier and at the higher tiers.

At the lower tier they make money selling roster slots.  Actually this is the biggest moneymaker across all tiers, but the incentive has to be there to roster every single character.  Essentials solve part of that for them, but I think this boost also helps.

At the higher tier, players can absolutely dominate all phases of the game by getting the best one or two characters at high level and then just stopping. The old whales are gone because there's no incentive for them to whale anymore: get 550 Okoye and you're done forever.  That's bad for the bottom line.  They've got to create some incentive for people to keep chasing *something*.  If nobody spends the game dies.

Will people chase old characters now?  I have no idea, but they certainly weren't doing it before last week and it's at least possible now.

Borstock

entrailbucket said:

Bad said:

If they continue the same rotation in 3 months all 5*s will be featured. I think it is positive for game diversity, and many players can enjoy more characters.
Still in other thread I advocated for a rebalance. Other user said more buffs, it seem devs liked that idea, it is the easy way.
However to rebalance a classic 5* unplayable it would be quite easy: increase his match damage in at least 300, give him 60k health, and set his powers at 9AP maximum.
Because when the buff changes, those characters will return to being unplayable.

I understand your dream and I don't disagree with the vision, but the MPQ meta doesn't work that way and it never has.

Imagine the devs adjust power levels on some old character like OML.  There are only two relevant outcomes there: either he becomes better than one of the current best two or he doesn't.  If he breaks into the best two, there will be a period where people figure out the new meta, and then everyone will run OML/x other character.

If he gets better but isn't good enough to be in the best two, he stays on the bench forever, just as before.  Any time they spent rebalancing is wasted.

If their goal is to truly make every character relevant (which is a thing they should want, because it makes them money), the only option is to continuously adjust power levels.  There are games that do that, but they have dedicated staff that handle metagame balancing. 

Short of making a big investment like that, the only realistic option they have is quasi-random short-term monster boosts.

There is another option, actually. It is to give every meta a hard counter. For example, if there was a 5* version of Quake, Hulkoye would have a hard counter. You could still run it all the time, but it would in no way be safe. And as long as that team also has a hard counter, round and round we go.

ThaRoadWarrior

Is 5Witch not the 5* Quake?

entrailbucket

Borstock said:

entrailbucket said:

Bad said:

If they continue the same rotation in 3 months all 5*s will be featured. I think it is positive for game diversity, and many players can enjoy more characters.
Still in other thread I advocated for a rebalance. Other user said more buffs, it seem devs liked that idea, it is the easy way.
However to rebalance a classic 5* unplayable it would be quite easy: increase his match damage in at least 300, give him 60k health, and set his powers at 9AP maximum.
Because when the buff changes, those characters will return to being unplayable.

I understand your dream and I don't disagree with the vision, but the MPQ meta doesn't work that way and it never has.

Imagine the devs adjust power levels on some old character like OML.  There are only two relevant outcomes there: either he becomes better than one of the current best two or he doesn't.  If he breaks into the best two, there will be a period where people figure out the new meta, and then everyone will run OML/x other character.

If he gets better but isn't good enough to be in the best two, he stays on the bench forever, just as before.  Any time they spent rebalancing is wasted.

If their goal is to truly make every character relevant (which is a thing they should want, because it makes them money), the only option is to continuously adjust power levels.  There are games that do that, but they have dedicated staff that handle metagame balancing. 

Short of making a big investment like that, the only realistic option they have is quasi-random short-term monster boosts.

There is another option, actually. It is to give every meta a hard counter. For example, if there was a 5* version of Quake, Hulkoye would have a hard counter. You could still run it all the time, but it would in no way be safe. And as long as that team also has a hard counter, round and round we go.

There are 50-some 5*, and we get new ones all the time.  If Okoye had a hard counter, assuming that people actually used the counter, the entire meta would be, what, 3 characters?  Who would use a hard counter to 5* Iron Man, if there was one?

You're asking them to rebalance the entire tier, while also maintaining an exquisitely balanced counterplay system where no one choice is better than another and every character is both usable and countered fully.

Not only is the game simply not that deep, the amount of design effort required to do something like this is massive.  Huge game companies have huge departments dedicated to game balance, and they still can't get it right every time.  D3 has no chance of ever getting this right, because they don't have the resources that, like, Blizzard or Epic do.

Borstock

entrailbucket said:

Borstock said:

entrailbucket said:

Bad said:

If they continue the same rotation in 3 months all 5*s will be featured. I think it is positive for game diversity, and many players can enjoy more characters.
Still in other thread I advocated for a rebalance. Other user said more buffs, it seem devs liked that idea, it is the easy way.
However to rebalance a classic 5* unplayable it would be quite easy: increase his match damage in at least 300, give him 60k health, and set his powers at 9AP maximum.
Because when the buff changes, those characters will return to being unplayable.

I understand your dream and I don't disagree with the vision, but the MPQ meta doesn't work that way and it never has.

Imagine the devs adjust power levels on some old character like OML.  There are only two relevant outcomes there: either he becomes better than one of the current best two or he doesn't.  If he breaks into the best two, there will be a period where people figure out the new meta, and then everyone will run OML/x other character.

If he gets better but isn't good enough to be in the best two, he stays on the bench forever, just as before.  Any time they spent rebalancing is wasted.

If their goal is to truly make every character relevant (which is a thing they should want, because it makes them money), the only option is to continuously adjust power levels.  There are games that do that, but they have dedicated staff that handle metagame balancing. 

Short of making a big investment like that, the only realistic option they have is quasi-random short-term monster boosts.

There is another option, actually. It is to give every meta a hard counter. For example, if there was a 5* version of Quake, Hulkoye would have a hard counter. You could still run it all the time, but it would in no way be safe. And as long as that team also has a hard counter, round and round we go.

There are 50-some 5*, and we get new ones all the time.  If Okoye had a hard counter, assuming that people actually used the counter, the entire meta would be, what, 3 characters?  Who would use a hard counter to 5* Iron Man, if there was one?

You're asking them to rebalance the entire tier, while also maintaining an exquisitely balanced counterplay system where no one choice is better than another and every character is both usable and countered fully.

Not only is the game simply not that deep, the amount of design effort required to do something like this is massive.  Huge game companies have huge departments dedicated to game balance, and they still can't get it right every time.  D3 has no chance of ever getting this right, because they don't have the resources that, like, Blizzard or Epic do.

Im not asking them to do that at all. They're still releasing 5's. The hard counters could be the focus of what's next. It wouldn't be difficult. I already gave an example that would entirely neutralize Hulkoye.

Borstock

ThaRoadWarrior said:

Is 5Witch not the 5* Quake?

I believe she is in that you generally should use a different team to take her down, thereby creating variety in a way we didn't have before her release. A fine example of what I'm talking about.

entrailbucket

Borstock said:

entrailbucket said:

Borstock said:

entrailbucket said:

Bad said:

If they continue the same rotation in 3 months all 5*s will be featured. I think it is positive for game diversity, and many players can enjoy more characters.
Still in other thread I advocated for a rebalance. Other user said more buffs, it seem devs liked that idea, it is the easy way.
However to rebalance a classic 5* unplayable it would be quite easy: increase his match damage in at least 300, give him 60k health, and set his powers at 9AP maximum.
Because when the buff changes, those characters will return to being unplayable.

I understand your dream and I don't disagree with the vision, but the MPQ meta doesn't work that way and it never has.

Imagine the devs adjust power levels on some old character like OML.  There are only two relevant outcomes there: either he becomes better than one of the current best two or he doesn't.  If he breaks into the best two, there will be a period where people figure out the new meta, and then everyone will run OML/x other character.

If he gets better but isn't good enough to be in the best two, he stays on the bench forever, just as before.  Any time they spent rebalancing is wasted.

If their goal is to truly make every character relevant (which is a thing they should want, because it makes them money), the only option is to continuously adjust power levels.  There are games that do that, but they have dedicated staff that handle metagame balancing. 

Short of making a big investment like that, the only realistic option they have is quasi-random short-term monster boosts.

There is another option, actually. It is to give every meta a hard counter. For example, if there was a 5* version of Quake, Hulkoye would have a hard counter. You could still run it all the time, but it would in no way be safe. And as long as that team also has a hard counter, round and round we go.

There are 50-some 5*, and we get new ones all the time.  If Okoye had a hard counter, assuming that people actually used the counter, the entire meta would be, what, 3 characters?  Who would use a hard counter to 5* Iron Man, if there was one?

You're asking them to rebalance the entire tier, while also maintaining an exquisitely balanced counterplay system where no one choice is better than another and every character is both usable and countered fully.

Not only is the game simply not that deep, the amount of design effort required to do something like this is massive.  Huge game companies have huge departments dedicated to game balance, and they still can't get it right every time.  D3 has no chance of ever getting this right, because they don't have the resources that, like, Blizzard or Epic do.

Im not asking them to do that at all. They're still releasing 5's. The hard counters could be the focus of what's next. It wouldn't be difficult. I already gave an example that would entirely neutralize Hulkoye.

So every old 5* remains utterly useless?  I don't think that's a good answer.

There are games that do balance this way, but they're constructed (and monetized) in a different way than this one is.  In those games, the new stuff is always better than the old stuff, but the old stuff is never necessary and it's removed from the gacha pools.

MPQ can't do that because its monetization model depends on getting players to buy roster slots.  They can't get rid of the old stuff, because they need to have as much stuff in the gacha pools as possible, to ensure that new players are pulling guys they don't have yet and buying slots for them.

thedarkphoenix

The 5 counters they drop are always luke warm at actually countering other meta 5's. Morbius could have easily been a 5 and tweaked just a tad, Knull could have passively destroyed 2-3 greens at the start of  your or each turn seriously countering thor and ihulk.

Instead we get what we get 

HoundofShadow

Anyone with a champed Apocalypse should be able to handle those boosted 5*. I think we'll know in June whether this will be a regular schedule or it will be taken out for "a while".

Srheer0

From what I gather, people have been wanting buffs for the older 5s. Things like OML, Ironman, Captain America just aren't viable in todays game,  

So D3 either change their kits, or put in weekly boosts. They chose the weekly boost option because it is cheaper for them (staff wages).  

I have a 3 year old roster. Have something like 26 of the 5stars champed and d5adpool is my highest at level462 I think. Th5r being my oldest 5 that is champed. I also have an alt account with all 3s champed and polaris Karnak champed and some other meta 4s at 13 covers and not quite champed yet.

I was hit more times than I expected this weekend on my main account. And by some names I had never seen before. But I still managed to get to my 900+ point endgoal.

I did my usual 30-45 minute last minute climb on my alt account. Got hit maybe 1 time and ended up with maybe 50 more points higher than I was expecting. Barely saw any of the boosted 5s on it, but that is to be expected.

Overall I would say D3s experiment was a success. I certainly had more fun on both my accounts. The only downside is that players with less than 5 champed 5s may feel cheated by the system. Atleast one player in my alliance has expressed annoyance at the change for this reason.

ThaRoadWarrior

HoundofShadow said:

Anyone with a champed Apocalypse should be able to handle those boosted 5*. I think we'll know in June whether this will be a regular schedule or it will be taken out for "a while".

Eventually this newer round of characters will be boosted, and we'll be dealing with Apocalypse, Carbage, iHulk, etc are going to be Challenge Node levels of out there. Those weeks should be fun.