Okoye everywhere

Daredevil217

Phumade said:

Bad said:

 Phumade said:

Like I said earlier let’s have two MMRs.

once for below 1300 so you can have easier matches against weaker teams with opportunity to see and hit bigger A teams at a 4:1 ratio.

But an okoye level 480 and a baby hulk never should be on the same level as two 500 levels characters. 

You might want to specify how old those 500 chars are.

I don’t really think a 480 okie / 450ihulk is competitive  against 500 Adam warlock/yellow jacket combo to be honest. 

Points are low because it’s a competive new event and those A type players will tighten their play to better position themselves for placement and deny late climbers easy catch-up points.

but ultimately is your concerns about easy points to push out those placement players?  In any case a solo roster with just a naked 480/okie ihulk.  Would barely be competing for t25 in s4 first or second bracket.  Unless they are prepared to be hopping a day and 1/2 out and play 50+ matches

That same climber at the 3hr mark would be hard pressed to break 1000 in a sustained push  In any case to win placement slots, you need to better understand advanced pvp hopping mechanics.  Merely showing up with a single big pair in the last hours is usually not pleasant for anyone.

to be clear, 1200 progression players should not need to know advance play mechanics. And normally the bakers will push the scores high enough that only the committed will do the hop mechanics to lock in their placement spots.

Bottom line we want people to break 1200.  But if you want placement you have to be willing to work harder than the dude who monitored for 4 hops across 2 days with 4 ques each hop.  Roster power alone won’t decide t25.

and ultimately if you want more engagement just add fresh milestones.  Those have added way more brackets than any char rework.  Playing for placement only works for the top 5%.  The rest of us just want fun matches to 1200 maybe play a few after to see state of the art.  

To simply the discussion.
nerfing chars to make it easy to win placement is dumb.  Placement players are hardcore gamers that will always exploit any advantage to lock inplacement.  The actual char is irrelevant since they will always defaul to next best tool.

adjusting mmr to create better matchups allows players to realistically decided how far they want to play with a pleasant exp.  ideally players should be completing progression before being forced to use their biggest combos.

I marked this as insightful, because that’s a world I know nothing about. I just do my best to hit 1200 in 1 or 4 (or 75 wins anywhere), since those are the slices I’ve been told have the most points. I don’t really care about placement though will shield out for the alliance. Sometimes I get suppressed/blasted back. Usually I can get there. But your bottom line should be common sense. The top players will continue to dominate whether you change the rules or their tools.  Asserting otherwise is a weak straw man argument. 

Bottom line, there are tons of Okoye threads all of a sudden, which is interesting because we didn’t have these before IHulk. Mod killed one, and like 3-4 more took its place (Hail Hydra!).  We really need one official “Okoye” thread. Whoops that already exists. People are debating who is the problem, should anyone be nerfed, what is considered a nerf, asserting why other people feel the way they do (“you’re just jealous”, “you don’t want your big gun taken away”) etc. And those on the pro side have different reasons for wanting one or both nerfed.  So like Hound said in one of these billion thread- those who have a problem need to state very clearly what it is instead going all over the place to say “Okoye bad!”  

For me it comes down to variety. I don’t like that Hulkoye doesn’t have a drawback to playing them. I’m playing them now from 0-1200. They are fast on offense (like ThorPoc) and a deterrent on defense (like BRBritty). I’ve come to accept that the meta will never be  THAT diverse, as there will always be a “best team”. The game just isn’t that balanced sadly. But you need very specific characters to counter Hulkoye, and since “bring your own” is one of those options, they are everywhere.

I still think think Hulk is the bigger “problem” in the pair, but rather than nerf him, I’d love to see a silver bullet character be released that wrecks him. He’ll still get used a ton with Okoye, but there will actually be a drawback. 

BigSoftieFF said:

I disagree with the PvP population shrinking as well. I play in S3 and we get three .10 brackets nearly every event now, we used to barely get 2. Can’t imagine it’s just S3, there are some meanies there 😂 

Thanks for mentioning this. Another straw man. Even if people were leaving PVP in droves (they aren’t), I still don’t see evidence that Hulkoye is the culprit. 

Mayo

Changed my normal slice time this month always pvp scl10, guess what i found lot of? Okoye+ihulk teams everywhere,  with okoye almost 100 lvl difference with ihulk in a lot of cases. Can skip 50 times getting only that team from several players. So if the question is who is the problem, now i can sincerely  say that Okoye is. I have beaten 10 and 15 level difference okoye + ihulk using full boosts and luck but okoye lvl 500+ baby champ ihulk is almost a troll team that should not be usable.
5% of players wont mind but the other 95% are handicapped by default in pvp.

I played to t10-25 in pvp until the last 2 okoye stores, now i do my 75 wins early and dont care more, this will make the game even more unbalanced in the long run for most players, hope the devs do something pronto! ✌🏻🍀

Phumade

Mayo said:

I played to t10-25 in pvp until the last 2 okoye stores, now i do my 75 wins early and dont care more, this will make the game even more unbalanced in the long run for most players, hope the devs do something pronto

I fully empathize,  sadly good rosters diminish in Power rapidly.   A lot of CP was cashed in during those two stores and people grew their rosters and AMBITION in very real meaningful ways.   

I personally gave up a default assumption that my roster is a lock for T20 placement in pve scl10.  Now I know I gotta study the point return charts and know for certain that i can beat each node at the precise time to get full value points.  It’s a whole level of detail work far beyond doing the std grind at the right time.

the bottom line is as people grow their rosters, improve their tactics, and understanding of scoring.  I have to be willing to put in that same efffort or accept my place lower on the ladder. 

HoundofShadow

If you have 550 Okoye, would you still be saying the same thing?

My slice is ending soon and I just checked who my opponents are, and this is after crossing 900 points in the current SCL 10 PvP:

Note: I record every team per skip, up to first 10 teams.

Polaris/R4G
Yelena Polaris
Baby champed iHulkoye
Polaris/Karnak
Polaris/R4G
Baby champed IHulk/ 500 Okoye
Apocalypse/Onslaught
Apocalypse/BRB
Champed iHulkoye, level 480.
340 Carbage/Medusa

Out of 10, 3 teams are iHulkoye. I hardly call them being around everywhere. I think I have figured it out: iHulkoye is everywhere, but they are not everywhere in pvp, but they are everywhere in that player's mind.

Phumade

Nobody wants to play current gen meta combos( ihulk okie, brb gritty, px onslaught, apoc) from 0-1200.  These are elite level combos wielded by known players where there are always consequences be it social or just intensive resources.  It’s always pointless and messy below 1000.  

The devs need to eliminate these combos in the pool below 1200.  Everyone including the 5* mega whales would love a respite from relentless AAA team monsters.  But it totally makes sense to combine in all the meta team combos once your in the placement point range.  People ie the t25 legitimately enjoy the dynamic between grilllers hoppers and even snipers.  Within that dynamic okie or ihulk at any size is no deterrent to a determined opponent.  Believe me my  A team has been 2x more times than not on a 3m duress hop.

HoundofShadow

That throws up a few questions:

1) Is it compulsory that the dev make sure that all players who play pvps can hit 1200 easily?

2) What percentage of the players actually wants to hit 1200?

3) Assuming you take away all the current meta combo, you will be left with Carbage taking the reign. Fighting Carbage is slow. Should Carbage be included?

4) One of the common complains are high ap cost. Currently 9 ap is considered high. When you take away all the meta passive teams, you will be left with matches that take more times. This brings me to another common complain:  players don't have a lot of time to spend on MPQ. They don't want to hit 75 wins to get the last reward. 

5) Assuming players don't face all these meta teams pre-1200, it doesn't change the fact that they will still get beaten down in PvPs. As a matter of fact, it's easier to climb up and at the same time, it's much easier to get beaten down. Non-competitive players don't shield hop, and they don't seem to like spending HP on shield. This brings me to another complain: players climbing up dislikes getting beaten down. 

6) Climbing up to 1200 from takes about 30 to 50 minutes in a single sitting. Since normal players don't shield hop and they don't like to see their points dropping while climbing, the only problem that is solved is by that suggestion is not seeing meta passive teams from 0 to 1200.  It doesn't solve the common complains I outlined above.

Phumade

HoundofShadow said:

That throws up a few questions:

1) Is it compulsory that the dev make sure that all players who play pvps can hit 1200 easily?

2) What percentage of the players actually wants to hit 1200?

3) Assuming you take away all the current meta combo, you will be left with Carbage taking the reign. Fighting Carbage is slow. Should Carbage be included?

4) One of the common complains are high ap cost. Currently 9 ap is considered high. When you take away all the meta passive teams, you will be left with matches that take more times. This brings me to another common complain:  players don't have a lot of time to spend on MPQ. They don't want to hit 75 wins to get the last reward. 

5) Assuming players don't face all these meta teams pre-1200, it doesn't change the fact that they will still get beaten down in PvPs. As a matter of fact, it's easier to climb up and at the same time, it's much easier to get beaten down. Non-competitive players don't shield hop, and they don't seem to like spending HP on shield. This brings me to another complain: players climbing up dislikes getting beaten down. 

6) Climbing up to 1200 from takes about 30 to 50 minutes in a single sitting. Since normal players don't shield hop and they don't like to see their points dropping while climbing, the only problem that is solved is by that suggestion is not seeing meta passive teams from 0 to 1200.  It doesn't solve the common complains I outlined above.

These questions are worth addressing.

1.   I think the player base has evolved way past the original achievement targets.  Specifically the num of players who can realistically hit 1200 has grown dramatically in the past 2 years.  Let’s acknowledge that reality and allow players who want placement to quickly and rapidly escalate past 1200 into open mmr.
      Players who current play at 1200 points will probably continue to oscillate between 1150 and 1250 as the mmr and resulting ques change.  The objective is that these players have a better play experience to 1200 before they are walled in by floating okiehulks.

2.  I personally think the devs need to improve that % to near 100%.  People can decide to stop earlier based on time , convienance etc. 
BUT making people want to quit before 1200 as a result of match tedium isn’t fun.

3.  Sure. It’s not unreasonable to ask that the 10 biggest 5* are not queable chars until after 1000, with a balance of 4* 5* to 1200.  From the 5* perspective, my match volume actually goes up through 1200, but I get an easier array of opponents and I can comfortable play my variety of max 4* champs until I’m ready to play for placement.

4.  Longer rounds are okay at lower point levels.  WE ALL miss the 3* days, when you actually had to chase ap to fire powers and end a match.  This aspect of the game has long been missed by advance players.  But let’s also say that no one wants to gather the 10+ yellow and black that OML  requires In The middle of push for T5.  I personally would love to have those battles at 500-1000 and try 4* counter play.  But again not all my colleagues like that aspect and let’s quickly get them to 1200+ and OUT of the sub 1200 mmr

5.  The modified elo pretty much guarantees that high points can only do minimal point damage to low points and below 1000 the shard gains points no matter what.  Yes there lots of carnage after 1200, but you’ve finished progression which really is mandatory if you want to maintain your place on the ladder.

6.  I personally think longer thoughtful match’s with lots of power back and forth are desirable things below 1200.  I would welcome the chance to play slow teams that allow me to play my Legion David heller well.  Under dual mmr or meta team protection, the points should be high enough that people can have a more diversified exp through 1200.  sorry I don’t have a great idea for making sure that everyone gets a top10 placement prize.  But I’m all about people getting progression without having to push through big meta teams

i personally think players just want a variety of opponents to show off the range of their rosters. Big meta level teams are fine for last series of hops to placement but it would be lots of fun to use my big 4*/baby 5* champs at lower point levels and against varied opponents

tldr
 1200 is no longer a meaningful benchmark on comp vs casual.  The goal should be to speed all players past the 1-3* phases into 4* land where 1200 is the default expectation.  To facillate that player acceleration, let’s ease the road to 1200.  Longer matches that allow people to acquire and fire powers is okay for this tier of play

Bad

HoundofShadow said:

Note: I record every team per skip, up to first 10 teams.

Polaris/R4G
Yelena Polaris
Baby champed iHulkoye
Polaris/Karnak
Polaris/R4G
Baby champed IHulk/ 500 Okoye
Apocalypse/Onslaught
Apocalypse/BRB
Champed iHulkoye, level 480.
340 Carbage/Medusa

Out of 10, 3 teams are iHulkoye. I hardly call them being around everywhere. I think I have figured it out: iHulkoye is everywhere, but they are not everywhere in pvp, but they are everywhere in that player's mind.

I think you should pass to 5* land before saying that ihulkoye teams are not everywhere. 
As Im usually never seeing some of those including 4* teams you listed.
Even more, saying that it is in your MMR is proof enough that they are everywhere. 
Yes, hulkoye teams are everywhere. And in some MMR level they will take less hits as people usually dont want to risk their health packs. 
If they were nerfed, would other teams take their place? I dont care for that, or at least I would care less than an ultra fast team that needs really specific characters and equipping all you can for beat it, and knowing that some health pack will be used.
Is a team not letting the player do their play. And you can say all you want about MMR but the evidence is that they are at the top always. The most broken duo in the game right now. 

HoundofShadow

In that case, what %  of players actually want to play slow matches, given that they don't have enough time to play slowly, and they are already spoilt by Okoye, Thor and the likes?

Given that every time new players post in the forum about how to advance, the advice has almost always been to chase the meta: Champ Dr Strange, Polaris, R4G, Juggernaut etc first because they are fast. With that, won't new players be handicapped by veterans' advices, with your suggestions in place?

In order for players to oscillate between 1150 to 1200 reliably, majority of the players have to hit 1200 as well. If not, mmr has to shift dramatically in order for that to happen. 

Players are able to progress even more quickly with Shards, Daily Quests, Milestone quests etc. So, how fast do you think it should take for new players to hit 4* land? What's the timeframe, and for what kind of players is that time frame for?


To Bad, I'm already in 5* land since last year, and I have more than 5 champed 5*. These are the opponents that I see past 900/1000. I think the best proof that players who said that they always see iHulkoye everywhere is for them to take a video and hit skip 10 to 20 times after they reach 900/1000 points. That way, we can count the number of iHulkoye team objectively, instead of emotionally.

Bad

HoundofShadow said:

Given that every time new players post in the forum about how to advance, the advice has almost always been to chase the meta: Champ Dr Strange, Polaris, R4G, Juggernaut etc first because they are fast. With that, won't new players be handicapped by veterans' advices, with your suggestions in place?

In order for players to oscillate between 1150 to 1200 reliably, majority of the players have to hit 1200 as well. If not, mmr has to shift dramatically in order for that to happen. 

Players are able to progress even more quickly with Shards, Daily Quests, Milestone quests etc. So, how fast do you think it should take for new players to hit 4* land? What's the timeframe, and for what kind of players is that time frame for?


To Bad, I'm already in 5* land since last year, and I have more than 5 champed 5*. These are the opponents that I see past 900/1000. I think the best proof that players who said that they always see iHulkoye everywhere is for them to take a video and hit skip 10 to 20 times after they reach 900/1000 points. That way, we can count the number of iHulkoye team objectively, instead of emotionally.

That explains some things,as why are you not seeing hulkoye teams so often. 
I have 16 5* champed playing scl10 since start. All these resources help to advance further.
But the top is the top. You can believe that hulkoye is on the top. Not emotionally nor anything: hulkoye is on the top.
And it is there for all the reasons already mentioned. I dont have anything against fast teams. But if they are fast and at the same time facing them causes wasting too many resources,  plus having a good aid from luck, then I call that its too much.
Its a too unbalanced meta and I stand for something must be done. 

CharlieCroker

HoundofShadow said:

To Bad, I'm already in 5* land since last year, and I have more than 5 champed 5*. These are the opponents that I see past 900/1000. I think the best proof that players who said that they always see iHulkoye everywhere is for them to take a video and hit skip 10 to 20 times after they reach 900/1000 points. That way, we can count the number of iHulkoye team objectively, instead of emotionally.

Even doing that won’t necessarily give you the answer as it will depend on what’s happening in the shard at the time you choose to make the video.  Are all the higher scorers out hopping where you will only see Okoye/Hulk (and the odd grill) or is it a quiet time where all you can find are floaters and, if you can break through the floaters, 4* teams.

The last few seasons I have mostly played in S1 with a few trips to S5 and very occasionally S2/S3.  I normally climb in the last 8h.  My experience is fairly uniform in that I will get to a point, normally in the 600-800 range, where all I can queue is Okoye/Hulk and mainly for 30-40pts unless a higher scorer happens to hop.  If I find a non Hulk team I will jump straight onto it, but normally don’t hit once than once.

Once I break through these teams I will still mainly queue Okoye/Hulk but interspersed with 4* teams (and 5/4 combos) for 20-30pts apiece.  Sometimes MMR will open up then and I’ll huge duo near 550 teams like BRB/Kitty. 
 

I would say that at busier times (for example the end break in S1) I will see almost exclusively Okoye/Hulk and the 4* teams will disappear.  And once you get close to 2k in Sim it will be primarily Okoye/Hulk/x (normally Prof X or Thanos) with a few Kitty/BRB/Polaris.  Probably around a 90/10 or 80/20 split.

HoundofShadow

As far as I know, one of the factors to determine MMR is based on the top 3 to 5 highest level of your characters. I don't think it matters whether you have 10 or 20 champed 5* because MMR looks at the first few highest levelled characters, unless 5* land has its special MMR. One thing I was told that your 5* MMR will change if you have 5 5* levelled 470 and above.

And CharlieCroker pointed out those important contexts that have been missing in all these discussions. Funnily enough, those who want to see them nerf never give contexts. They see iHulkoye and they think of nerf. Contexts shape and limit the scope of discussion. Once again, contexts matter. 

sinnerjfl

HoundofShadow said:

If you have 550 Okoye, would you still be saying the same thing?

My slice is ending soon and I just checked who my opponents are, and this is after crossing 900 points in the current SCL 10 PvP:

Note: I record every team per skip, up to first 10 teams.

Polaris/R4G
Yelena Polaris
Baby champed iHulkoye
Polaris/Karnak
Polaris/R4G
Baby champed IHulk/ 500 Okoye
Apocalypse/Onslaught
Apocalypse/BRB
Champed iHulkoye, level 480.
340 Carbage/Medusa

Out of 10, 3 teams are iHulkoye. I hardly call them being around everywhere. I think I have figured it out: iHulkoye is everywhere, but they are not everywhere in pvp, but they are everywhere in that player's mind.

Just to give you an idea, i am firmly in 5* land. It is not even uncommon anymore that the first 3 matches of an event for me are iHulk/Okoye these days. That is at 0 points, so don't you tell me they're not everywhere.

HoundofShadow

That's not a good way to determine whether iHulkoye is everywhere. I have no idea how they determine who you see first. I see two 1* character paired with loaners in the first three matches of PvP frequently. Does that mean 1* character are everywhere in pvp?

In the next PvP, skip 20 times, and record who you see. 

DAZ0273

I am not saying Hulkoye is everywhere but I just did 5 skips and the results were Hulkoye, Hulkoye, BRB/Polaris, Hulkoye, BRB/America Chavez - this is in Predator & Prey and right at the beginning of my climb. If that pattern repeats then that puts them in 60% of my upcoming potential matches - obviously it is a tiny sample size so is probably meaningless and MMR may differ from player to player. However what it does demonstrate to me is that Hulkoye, unlike pretty much all the other metas only starts to dominate in champed 5* territory because when I was in sub champed 5* land, I rarely queued less got hit by Okoye. Interestingly - I had the same experience with Thorkoye too - very rarely saw it. Kitty dominates the sub champed 5* meta but that seems to change at 450+.

I dunno what it all means but there is a common denominator.

HoundofShadow

PvP MMR is largely determined by:

1) your top 3 to 5 highest levelled characters
2) the timeslice you choose
3) your current PvP point
4) your current position
5) when you start playing your first few matches
6) when you climb
7) how much time is left in your slice
8) number of points in the slice

Hopefully, I didn't miss out anything else.

The point is, as long as players don't actively learn how the above factors work together, they will keep on facing similar problems in the future even if IHulk is nerfed. Either they are going to complain about how broken a future meta team is or how boring it is to face the same beatable meta team everywhere.

Please learn and observe how the players in your timeslice behave. If you can do this successfully, PvP will be much less of a headache to you.

Michael1957

I’d prefer instead of castrating characters we shut out each SCL in proportion to roster strength . The top 4 SCL could be limited by quantity of 5 stars on roster. SCL 7, you can’t have more than two 5*, for example , 10 for 8, 20 for 9, and 21 plus you MANDATORY play SCL 10. This would keep the cowards who don’t want to play against their peers from bullying much weaker rosters ( Please don’t insult me with the lame excuse , “ I’m not a coward , I’m just not interested in the reward vs time and resources required ). This way MMR levels would be more balanced and competitive, you’d be facing tons of mirror matches most likely , which is great because it would stop players from bringing a gun to a knife fight . 

Phumade

Okie/ihulk should be common at the highest scores and tiers.  It’s a fast tool and everyone expects to see it past 100.  That’s normal.

I do think people don’t mind longer matches, when they are in control of the powers and outcome .  No that does not mean Winfinite C-node length where you probably proess 150-200 ap.  But a 30-50 ap match is fine

DAZ0273

HoundofShadow said:

PvP MMR is largely determined by:

1) your top 3 to 5 highest levelled characters
2) the timeslice you choose
3) your current PvP point
4) your current position
5) when you start playing your first few matches
6) when you climb
7) how much time is left in your slice
8) number of points in the slice

Hopefully, I didn't miss out anything else.

The point is, as long as players don't actively learn how the above factors work together, they will keep on facing similar problems in the future even if IHulk is nerfed. Either they are going to complain about how broken a future meta team is or how boring it is to face the same beatable meta team everywhere.

Please learn and observe how the players in your timeslice behave. If you can do this successfully, PvP will be much less of a headache to you

I am pretty certain that nearly everybody in this thread understands, as much as they can, how PVP MMR works. OK not all of us might have recycled Reddit advice threads like you do but years and years of experience mean that we get it. None of that changes player real time experience.

Daredevil217

Michael1957 said:

I’d prefer instead of castrating characters we shut out each SCL in proportion to roster strength . The top 4 SCL could be limited by quantity of 5 stars on roster. SCL 7, you can’t have more than two 5*, for example , 10 for 8, 20 for 9, and 21 plus you MANDATORY play SCL 10. This would keep the cowards who don’t want to play against their peers from bullying much weaker rosters ( Please don’t insult me with the lame excuse , “ I’m not a coward , I’m just not interested in the reward vs time and resources required ). This way MMR levels would be more balanced and competitive, you’d be facing tons of mirror matches most likely , which is great because it would stop players from bringing a gun to a knife fight . 

You do realize (like Hound said) that the number of 5* champs has nothing to do with one’s power level after a certain point. Me and my 50 5* baby champs are of little threat when I’m just using 2 of them from 0-1200. However, the person who just unloaded on the fan favorites and has 500+ Okoye/Apoc/Kitty is a much bigger threat.

And FYI, if you don’t want people to “insult” you, maybe try not calling them “cowards” and “bullies”. There are ways in which you can share your experience and get your points across without having to attack others.  Just something to consider.