Okoye everywhere

Mayo

So Okoye + ihulk is now the norm for players who hoard and hoard to be top dogs. A problem that probably devs have not noted is how unbalcing this is specially for pvp.
Is she the problem? Don't think so, the problem is that players have been convinced / forced by older players to go for her over anything else. It is ridicolous to find lvl +500 okoyes paired with unchamped or baby champed ihulks for example winning over players they should not. Okoye is the opium for a group of players that prioritice speed over tactical play and fun.
So what could be done? How to stop players from dropping from pvp or the game with this  unbalanced situation?

In pve you get scl10, hard nodes and mega beaffed teams to segregate player roster capacities but there is nothing inside sclx pvp to protect you from being mega massacred by high level okoye teams. The system allows it and the system should give a way to at least at the middle run provide a way to mitigate this situation. Nerfing is just a way (like it has been done with other characters before and would also work again), but until or if that happens are the devs prepared to lose many mid level and new players? 

Why not democratice more the game making possible for more players to earn rewards, grow their rosters, spend and not stress more the system? 

How about running parallel pve and pvp events?. That way players that enter one pvp are blocked from entering the other one. One pvp could be related to the latest 5* and the other to the second latest 5* for example. At the current new release pace this would be very possible.

Benefits could be increased participation, increased purchases, less unneccesary stress but probably players would be motivated to play because the players abusing high level Okoye would be more evenly distributed and their rewards limited as always. This would be very healthy for all the community of players.

Coding parallel events should be easy, give it a try at least a couple of seasons so you can gather data and see if it works.

LavaManLee

Other mobile games encourage spreading your roster by having specific events tied to specific characters.  You don't have the characters?  You don't get the rewards.  I fear that because of how long MPQ has been out, it would be difficult to change that.  The problem is really apparent in 5* where there is a HUGE gap between the 5*s worth anything and the 5*s cluttering the roster page.  There really is no real reason to champ some of the 5*s and, until there is, hoarding will continue for the metas.

Phumade

Hehe

We have seen this discussion before in many many forms.   I look forward to seeing the forums participation.  I strongly suggest, you lay out your expectations on how long it should take a player to pass through the various phases.  Ultimately how long do you think it should take players to catch-up to end tier players?

by democratize do you mean shift prizes from placement and move it equitably aaround prog?

or should their be more hard separation in roster sizes.  Ie. You can’t que players outside your roster class.  (This is really a mmr complaint by the way)

Phumade

Personally I do think we need a major matching adjustment.

I think the priorities for matchmaking need to change during the various point phases.

from 0-900.  Matchmaking should only present rosters 1 full tier lower 75% of the time.  Even if it means lower point matches. The focus should be against easily winnable matches.  Climbing through 900 should not mean wall to wall ihulk okie.

from 900-1200.  No target should repeat 5x.  After 5 times it should disappear for 10m.  The mix should be flipped to 75% comparable 5* matches 25% 4* walruses.

after 1300 mmr currently works fine.  Players competing over 2k are generally well segregated and the matches have a good competive feel without being unbalanced

Daredevil217

I’m curious if IHulk were not a thing would we see Okoye everywhere? I highly doubt it. She’s way too easy to dispose of (you know... without free unchecked passive AOE damage from a character who cannot die until all others are disposed of). 

Okoye/Adam might get some play. But you can deny black (or do so long enough to get some beefy protects going) and once Adam dies, he stays dead. Then what’s left is Okoye, whom without characters to boost is not at all scary. 

I like IHulk so don’t want to see him nerfed per say. I’d prefer a pretty hard counter character be released. But the developers usually do weak half-measures that don’t really work. So if they want to go that route, I guess I’d prefer a nerf, but there are plenty of counter mechanics they could put in place to stop Hulk in his tracks. I’m so tired of that team in PVP, so please do what you have to. 

KGB

Daredevil217 said:

I like IHulk so don’t want to see him nerfed per say. I’d prefer a pretty hard counter character be released. But the developers usually do weak half-measures that don’t really work. So if they want to go that route, I guess I’d prefer a nerf, but there are plenty of counter mechanics they could put in place to stop Hulk in his tracks. I’m so tired of that team in PVP, so please do what you have to. 

They ought to release a 5* character with a passive that prevents resurrection (too bad 5* Thanos already exists or a 'No more Resurrections This Time' passive would be perfect on him as a sly nod to him killing Loki) . That would stop iHulk in his tracks (and Loki, Phoenix, LumberCaps power etc) allowing players to down him first before things get out of hand.

KGB

acescracked

The characters change but the gripe remains the same...

"Sentry literally changed the PVP metagame. Rags was powerful, but Rags couldn't win you a fight in 30 seconds like Sentry could.

In the Sentry glory days, if you weren't shield-hopping and Sentry bombing, good luck consisting staying past a thousand points. Good luck getting meaningful cover awards. And if you didn't have a Sentry, well, good luck fighting that wall of 166 Sentry/Hoods that appeared once you went past 600 points (sure you may eventually beat a Sentry centered roster, but it's going to take you a while, leaving you open to attacks, and leaving your roster pretty crippled at the end). Sentry/Hood was ubiquitous and completely terrible for roster variety - those with a playable Sentry played with Sentry, and those without just pretended at being competitive in PVP."
https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/comment/341196#Comment_341196

Above was from April 2015!  And Gambit and Bishop and xfw with lady Thor and half Thor with okoye. Current flavor is okoye/ihulk. In time this too shall pass. (Edit - though I guess with a nerf 😆)

Side note..I just changed onslaught. As others have said, onslaught/px is fun!

DeNappa

Do we really need a new thread on this just a few days the last 20-page discussion about the same topic was closed?

SpiderKev

I'm curious, what are the numbers compared to OML? Has it hit the 10% nerf threshold yet?

Old Man Logan, as one of our first 5-stars and one of our first characters with multiple sets of powers, is stronger and significantly more useful than most other options for one’s team, even when he’s at low covers. Over 10% of all battles won include an Old Man Logan on the player’s team. This is higher than the win or play rate of any other character in the game even when those characters are Powered-Up. We believe that his ubiquity and power is reducing options for team composition - Old Man Logan is significantly better even than other 5-stars at low covers, and he’s pushing out otherwise viable 4-star and 5-star options because he warrants a permanent place on the team.

DyingLegend

Ihulk and Okoye aren't the most consistent team. Other teams can knock them off with ease. Some teams don't need a particular board to excel.

I really don't have a tremendously difficult time fighting that team.

tonypq

I don't think lots of people use Okoye/Ihulk is just for hoarders or top dogs. This combo just happens to clear nodes fast. Let's face it, this game is really boring with the same old stale content and tiresome grind. Okoye/Ihulk give a fast forward button to traverse this boring grind fest. It's actually embarrassing how little D3 has added to this game in the 7 years it's been out ? If it wasn't for the Marvel license this game IMO would be buried by now. 

D3 has also basically pushed players into hoarding if they want to enter the 5 tier with at least 2 good 5s. Or due to the fact once LL 5s hit classics, it's near impossible to finish them unless you hoard CPs for a special store they may appear in once or twice a year if lucky. Then with the stupid cover system you can end up having to pull way more than you may want to if you keep getting dupe colors. Or have bad RNG, or need to cap shards to get the last cover you need saving you from having to pull who knows how many more times. 

I agree PVP is annoying facing the same 2 or 3 team combos endlessly. I doubt D3 is anxious to do anything drastic to do anything with the PCP match making system. They don't want to nerf the handful of metas that bring the whole MPQ universe down. They don't want to buff older or weak characters to make hem have a fighting chance. 

So for that brings you right back to, if you still want to play this game and not have it be a mega chore. A lot of player will flock to your Okoye/Ihulk teams that make a boring mess more bearable.  I don't expect D3 to make any drastic changes. For how long this game has been out, I really doubt they have much hunger to fix PVP, fix obtaining classic 5s, fix any balance issues. 

Borstock

Okoye isn't the problem. IHulk is the problem. Without him, you'd never see her (except that the recent string of terrible 5's means a lot of players hoarded to pour levels into her).

I don't care that he's beatable. IHulk is the most broken character this game has ever had.

Mayo

LavaManLee said:

Other mobile games encourage spreading your roster by having specific events tied to specific characters.  You don't have the characters?  You don't get the rewards.  I fear that because of how long MPQ has been out, it would be difficult to change that.  The problem is really apparent in 5* where there is a HUGE gap between the 5*s worth anything and the 5*s cluttering the roster page.  There really is no real reason to champ some of the 5*s and, until there is, hoarding will continue for the metas.

I am very pro breaking metas other way than nerfing characters, I would be very frustrated if my character got nerfed.

Last gauntlet proved what real puzzle gaming is. Actually i got t10 because many many okoye users could not combo her to play and enjoy the event.

Having parellel events would encourage mid level players to continue growing their roster, okoye lovers would be more dispersed having the same rewards but the amount of players climbing will be far more, so they get more seals to hit but also others players having an easier time to hoard and catch up even expending money on their way. Win win situation.

Btw, another way to break  meta is give extra points not by speed but for completing extra conditions. In my opinion meta users only use okoye to evade the boring grind and to get top rewards in pvp and do not like to think while playing, this game is about puzzles so adding this would make this game more interesting.

sinnerjfl

tonypq said:

So for that brings you right back to, if you still want to play this game and not have it be a mega chore. A lot of player will flock to your Okoye/Ihulk teams that make a boring mess more bearable.  I don't expect D3 to make any drastic changes. For how long this game has been out, I really doubt they have much hunger to fix PVP, fix obtaining classic 5s, fix any balance issues. 

This is one hell of a bad take. People run iHulk/Okoye in PVP because its broken and it can beat about any team with ease. It requires no thinking whatsoever to use except gather TU, it also happens to be a team that is very annoying to fight and will make you go through health packs very quickly even with the sole team that can dispatch them semi-reliably. What happens then is everyone runs this garbage because they know its a free shield so it's what's left on defense the most and etc.

iHulk is what is currently making PVP extremely boring. He is broken, I don't care what anyone says. It's been too long already, he was broken at release and now its out of control. He's in almost every match in PVP.

You can be against nerfs and whatnot but there are limits. iHulk needs a nerf, he has too many upsides and nearly zero disadvantage to use. They made him too good, they need to fix it ASAP. Counters like Sighclops (lol) or Magneto (lol) are just not working.

tonypq

sinnerjfl said:

tonypq said:

So for that brings you right back to, if you still want to play this game and not have it be a mega chore. A lot of player will flock to your Okoye/Ihulk teams that make a boring mess more bearable.  I don't expect D3 to make any drastic changes. For how long this game has been out, I really doubt they have much hunger to fix PVP, fix obtaining classic 5s, fix any balance issues. 

This is one hell of a bad take. People run iHulk/Okoye in PVP because its broken and it can beat about any team with ease. It requires no thinking whatsoever to use except gather TU, it also happens to be a team that is very annoying to fight and will make you go through health packs very quickly even with the sole team that can dispatch them semi-reliably. What happens then is everyone runs this garbage because they know its a free shield so it's what's left on defense the most and etc.

iHulk is what is currently making PVP extremely boring. He is broken, I don't care what anyone says. It's been too long already, he was broken at release and now its out of control. He's in almost every match in PVP.

You can be against nerfs and whatnot but there are limits. iHulk needs a nerf, he has too many upsides and nearly zero disadvantage to use. They made him too good, they need to fix it ASAP. Counters like Sighclops (lol) or Magneto (lol) are just not working.

Everything you said is a given, doesn't make my point a bad take. You've stated the obvious so have I. People run Ok/IH for a number of reasons, you're right one is it's broken (we all know that). That being said it's also fast whether you're going for placement/points or just want to full clear events ASAP, also a deterrent in PVP to a lot of players. 

I'm all for an Ihulk tweak personally. I wouldn't mind seeing his passive damage reduced if they then lowered the team damage he causes when reviving. His passive damage is already more then decent even without Okoye or Apoc buffing it more, it's just bonkers when they are buffing him though. They could reduce the passive damage quite a bit but still have it remain for flavor or maybe change what his passive does entirely who knows. There are a lot of options for a non damaging passive if they decided to go that route I guess. 

I wouldn't mind seeing less passive damage but also less team damage. I'd love being able to revive him a few times without taking such a heavy toll on your own team. To me he'd be a lot more fun to play as boosted match damage character with a strong red, than having his passive damage exploitation such a focal point. Players also wouldn't feel the need to baby champ him to keep him under leveled like many are doing now. 

BriMan2222

How about making hulks green door not be able to be boosted by okoye or apoc but instead have it get stronger every time hulk comes back from the dead?

HoundofShadow

I'm  not sure what some of your MMR are, but mine is baby champed level with more than 5 champed. I find the statement "iHulkoye is everywhere" false in my situation. Before I jumped into 5* land, my impression was that 70%-80% would be this team, but it's not. It's more like the reverse. Again, it's for baby champed 5* MMR.

Currently, there are two counters to this team: Britty and Onslaught/Prof $.

Funnily enough, I remember players whining about how weak the other Hulks are, and how Hulk should be very powerful and get stronger and stronger. Finally, the dev gave us the Hulk that we always wanted. Now, it's ironic that people are calling for IHulk to be nerfed. If this proves anything, it prove that players don't know what they want.

Another example is how players want more meta characters and at the same time, they complain about power creep. It's really weird. It's no wonder 5* are a hit and miss when players keep changing their stance, based on their emotions.

Michael1957

I can’t believe we continue to have this endlessly meaningless discussion over and over . I’m done reading these 

Mayo

Michael1957 said:

I can’t believe we continue to have this endlessly meaningless discussion over and over . I’m done reading these 

Feel free to stop reading. Thanks for your participation. Lol

Mayo

Case study: 

Team A: okoye lvl 462 + ihulk lvl 452
Team B: okoye lvl 480 + ihulk lvl 420 (60 lvl difference)
Team C: okoye lvl 550 + ihulk lvl 450 (100 lvl difference)
All in the same pvp, under ceteris paribus conditions

Team A has no to little chance to win (in my own experience 1:15 to win) against team B

Team A has no chance against team C

Now change ihulk with 1/2 thor or ANY other AOE character that benefits from Okoye.

So who is the most broken character? Even then having parallel events will still encourage player activity until the devs can release characters to break this situation instead of nerfing okoye as they have nerfed other characters; and no, i don't think many players will leave the game, as it happened before, most players will be more neutral than negative to the change and will continue playing, past experience and common sense says so.

@Michael1957, what level are your okoye and ihulk? Perhaps that is why you perceive this discussion as meaningless and wish no more feedback on this issue but i myself prefer a mitigation solution in the system than the devs nerfing another character.

McPosterson

IDK.  Maybe just go get pair of your own?  Solver problem