Okoye everywhere

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  • sinnerjflsinnerjfl Posts: 1,216 Chairperson of the Boards
    IDK.  Maybe just go get pair of your own?  Solver problem
    That doesnt solve anything, just makes the problem worse. You can't mirror vs iHulk/Okoye, both teams will get decimated, not exactly a good strategy.

    Regarding the "we want a good Hulk" rhetoric, there's a middle ground that can be reached between good and completely off the charts beyond broken.
  • HoundofShadowHoundofShadow Posts: 4,274 Chairperson of the Boards
    Let's look at the past metas beginning from late 2017 and the complains about them. Correct me if I missed out someone or got the order wrong.

    1) Gambit: broken, mirror team needed to compete
    2) Thorokoye: beatable but boring
    3) Gritty: healthpack intensive, broken
    4) Bishop: stunlock, punish 5* players for making match-3
    5) WorthyCap/5*Hawkeye: matches take forever due to CDS going off.
    6) Britty: slow, take a long time to finish a match, power cost too low (6 blue ap)
    7) Ihulkoye: broken, healthpack drain; counters are slow.

    So far, Apocalypse hasn't gotten any complain yet.
    Next, let's look at why the players are the one who don't know what they want.

    First, they want characters with:
    a) cheap power cost (fewer than 9APS)
    b) High damage/ap power
    c)(Broken) passive
    d) Finishes match quickly

    But, they also like to complain about:
    1) power creeps 
    2) How majority of new releases and classic characters are dull/useless/sitting in a corner/forgotten. 
    Here comes the contradicting part:
    They said not every characters have to be meta, but complain about point 2 because they are not meta/fast.

    As you can see, this group of players are trapping themselves in their own loop.

  • acescrackedacescracked Posts: 1,046 Chairperson of the Boards
    Mayo said:
    Case study: 

    Team A: okoye lvl 462 + ihulk lvl 452
    Team B: okoye lvl 480 + ihulk lvl 420 (60 lvl difference)
    Team C: okoye lvl 550 + ihulk lvl 450 (100 lvl difference)
    All in the same pvp, under ceteris paribus conditions

    Team A has no to little chance to win (in my own experience 1:15 to win) against team B

    Team A has no chance against team C

    Now change ihulk with 1/2 thor or ANY other AOE character that benefits from Okoye.

    So who is the most broken character? Even then having parallel events will still encourage player activity until the devs can release characters to break this situation instead of nerfing okoye as they have nerfed other characters; and no, i don't think many players will leave the game, as it happened before, most players will be more neutral than negative to the change and will continue playing, past experience and common sense says so.

    @Michael1957, what level are your okoye and ihulk? Perhaps that is why you perceive this discussion as meaningless and wish no more feedback on this issue but i myself prefer a mitigation solution in the system than the devs nerfing another character.

    Whoa! You are so off on the A to B example.. 1 in 15???  So far off, really makes all your statements suspect to heavy bias. Fyi, I had a 460 okoye 451 ihulk for the longest time.

    550's a different story. You can have trouble with most good characters at 550.

    In the history of MPQ there is always a few characters people really use in PvP.  Your not gonna see a variety of 40 different characters ever. 
  • BadBad Posts: 859 Critical Contributor
    I think its good more players trying to denounce pvp state. Personally I did it about half a year ago but I think it only served for more players covering Okoye/iHulk. 
    Ihulk is an annoying character who always will take his health pack tax. He can appear with apocalypse or Px, taking advantage of the thougness of them.  He can appear with another one I saw recently but I won say it here, I suppose you will know soon or later.
    The thing is he never is more deadly when appears with fast boosting okoye, who matching just 3 TU increases that AoE on 5000 damage.
    Any counter to Ihulk works very good if she is not there, as you know.
    It seems devs are starting to design powers against Ihulk being not much in touch with pvp as they require a lot of AP. Meanwhile Ihulk will smash.
    At this rate my guess is he will be the one nerfed. Being his wife pretty broken too, but having a legion of users who will deny the facts.
    Meanwhile pvp gets more monotonous, a lot more than when bishop was hitting. That is not good for the game. 
  • ursoproursopro Posts: 331 Mover and Shaker
    I mean...
  • BlackBoltRocksBlackBoltRocks Posts: 858 Critical Contributor
    edited 16 February 2021, 12:22
    Bad said:
    Being his wife pretty broken too
    Lolol.
  • PiMacleodPiMacleod Posts: 1,337 Chairperson of the Boards
    You DO gotta wonder though....

    They (the devs) know that there's a giant community of players that LOVE to give their feedback -- whether its here on the forums, or on Discord, or the FB groups' pages, or wherever.  Due to this, we ALL know that they HAVE to have seen all of these "please nerf X" topics, and PvP/MMR topics.

    After all of that, after knowing what Okoye does for other characters... they ending up making one that can do team damage passively every turn with very little requirement.  Okay.  Well, he hurts himself when he makes matches.  That's not a bad trade off...

    BUT HE DOESN'T DIE?!?!  That's the thing, right there.  The fact that he comes back again, and can repeat that Green Door stuff again and again, while Okoye is standing by to continue the buff train...  

    If he died, and STAYED dead, wouldn't that be something?  People might level him up more, so he'd have more health... but then again, they wouldn't want him tanking over Okoye, or ever tanking period, due to his self-damage stuff.  And I get that this self-damage thing is why they also gave him the revive. 

    So, if you REALLY want him to revive, how about make a moment where the opponent earns a reprieve?  When iHulk comes back, have Green Door stay "locked" for a few turns or something.  Or maybe with each revive, it requires 2 more green on the board.  Something.

    For the (very thin) argument "get your own Okoye/iHulk", that's basically saying that the solution lies in the players' hands.  That we should be the ones striving to acquire that/those characters.  Why is THAT the argument, when it's so much more clear that there's over 50 5* stars, and we only talk about less than 10 of them?  Should we be content that 20% of the 5* roster is decent enough for discussion?  

    Eh, this topic is quite old.  I'm not saying it's not valid, but it is tiring.

    I do have one question, though...  @tonypq Why do you still play MPQ?  Please do NOT misconstrue this as an attack... this is an honest question, based on your post.  It is worded to sound like you're very bored, and you've played the same thing for far too long.  You mention 7+ years of the same thing, but really, I have 7+ years of different metas, new mechanics, different events, etc.  I'm not here to tell you "you're wrong" or any such commentary.  However, if I ever find myself describing a game like you did, I'm pretty sure I've already uninstalled it.  There's TONS of games out there, and only so much time to enjoy them.
  • SnowcaTTSnowcaTT Posts: 3,451 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited 16 February 2021, 13:48
    The problem is, has been, and will be Okoye. Lots of long-time vets knew she would be ultimate support character and tried to get her really big, really early. It was a 'problem' for newer players: they needed Okoye too! Probably the most BH'd character in the game.

    D3 knows their 'moneymaker', and has release vault after vault after vault of her lately. To great success - now it seems everywhere I look it's not 'hulkoye': it's 500+ okoye and tiny ihulk. No one is breaking huge hoards for ihulk: he's just the 'next best' to go with Okoye. She was being BH'd and used with Thor/PX before ihulk came out, she'll be used with the next/best character.

    In PVP, you'll see the hulkoyes floating longer because few want to hit them (using healthpacks, unavoidable) all day long. So you might see other rosters at the top, depending on how often they want to shield and hop. But it will be mostly big Okoye; most of the PVP brackets I see are T5 hulkoye and T10 mostly hulkoye.

    I've challenged people to look at their PVE boards. Here is my top 20 in this last new 5* release (Cyclops):

    Okoye level / PX level / iHulk level

    550 / 504 / 457
    550 / 450 / 550
    550 / 405 / 550
    550 / 495 / 458
    550 / 550 / 460
    550 / 470 / 464
    547 / 498 / 455
    512 / 472 / 459
    544 / 455 / 450
    521 / 477 / 451

    550 / 461 / 454
    521 / 390 / 450
    475 / 405 / [unchamped]
    520 / 467 / 453
    508 / 405 / 450
    550 / 502 / 456
    547 / 520 / 467
    518 / 462 / 453
    468 / 435 / 450
    550 / 550 / 550

    11 of 20 of those rosters have 547+ okoye (including the top 7). Only two of those rosters have Okoye under 508.

    Meanwhile, 17 of 20 had ihulk under 470. Big ihulk is helpful - but simply is not needed.

    Previously, PX was one of the best with Okoye. 7 of 20  have 495+ of PX there: again, handy but not required.



    It's been obvious who the 'chase' character is for years, it's practically the only way to compete in PVE - where it's all about speed (and cl10, somewhat difficulty): you need something that both speeds you up and punches above your weight-class.

    With all the Okoye vaults, it is rapidly becoming overwhelmingly obvious in PVP as well.
  • SnowcaTTSnowcaTT Posts: 3,451 Chairperson of the Boards
    I’m curious if IHulk were not a thing would we see Okoye everywhere? I highly doubt it. She’s way too easy to dispose of (you know... without free unchecked passive AOE damage from a character who cannot die until all others are disposed of).
    iHulk -is- a thing and you see almost no Apocalypse iHulk. That's because you can play around Apoc yellow.

    iHulk isn't the problem. If ihulk was the problem people would be hoarding for big ihulks in vaults. It's that Okoye boosts him from the very get-go: just like trying to prevent BRB from getting blue (when the D tiles being destroyed give it blue) it's almost impossible to prevent match-4's giving Okoye a little bit of TU.

    Add the ability to give +2 TU to start when you are using it offensively....or +4, if you're one of those...and that Okoye yellow ability adds to the TU 'problem'.... iHulk doing damage 'for free' every turn makes him the current 'best' for the Okoye boost. But it's not iHulk that's the problem - it's that Okoye boost, and that it scales with Okoye level.
  • MrPlowMrPlow Posts: 173 Tile Toppler
    Can someone explain why iHulk gets boosted by Okoye but 4*Juggs does not.
  • PhumadePhumade Posts: 2,060 Chairperson of the Boards
    All this could be addressed with better matchmaking.  Fundamentally, who cares about someone else’s roster?  That sorta unimportant to the real goal of acquiring resources and growing your roster.


    like I said earlier, address the fundamental needs of player to have a realistic path through 1200.  

    From 0-900 let players have easy matches, 75% one full star tier below. 25% should be comparable or higher teams.

    from 900-1200 change the mix to 75% peer classes teams with 25% one tier lower.

    from1300.  Use the current mmr formula.

    the goals should be if a player wants progression they should have a path to 1200 through comparable teams,  I agree baby 5* players get frustrated against Eldar tier rosters who can post a wide combo of big meta teams.


    Fundamentally people play pvp with 2 objectives.  1.  Complete the prog tree with as little effort as possible.

    2.  Either hop and grill to placement,  hop and snipe to placement.   Or hop and eat grillls to placement.


    Goal 1 has always been collaborative and I have yet to see the check rooms fail to push people over 1200 without fail.  Regardless of their roster or knowledge

    goal 2 has always been the social game of when to hop and grill or hop and snipe etc. which doesn’t depend really depend on roster.  


  • SpiderKevSpiderKev Posts: 78 Match Maker
    No point arguing if Okoye or Immortal Hulk should be the one to get nerfed. The precedent has already been sent with Xforce Wolverine and Jane Foster Thor...nerf both immortal Hulk and Okoye.

    They nerfed those two, Old Man Logan and Gambit when everyone was using them. They pretty much owe us an Okoye nerf. Let's go D3, do your thing and swing the nerf hammer already. 
  • helix72helix72 Posts: 771 Critical Contributor
    I’d be happy if when I hit skip I didn’t pay an ISO tax just to be immediately re-offered the exact same team I skipped again. If you’re going to do that, just charge me 2x the skip tax but make me only have to hit the button once.
  • acescrackedacescracked Posts: 1,046 Chairperson of the Boards
    When your asking for an ihulk nerf please consider those less fortunate. In this time of caring about our fellow mpq'ers there are those that use ihulk & vulture to beat pve cl10. Where do they go if you get the ihulk nerf? The forum nerf herders took worthy cap away from the less fortunate... Please show some heart.
  • sinnerjflsinnerjfl Posts: 1,216 Chairperson of the Boards
    sinnerjfl said:
    You can be against nerfs and whatnot but there are limits. iHulk needs a nerf, he has too many upsides and nearly zero disadvantage to use. They made him too good, they need to fix it ASAP. Counters like Sighclops (lol) or Magneto (lol) are just not working.

    I find this statement disingenuous. To start off, I think it's worthwhile to compare iHulk to Okoye:

    The Immortal Hulk

    Pros:

    + Passive AoE damage tied to board condition
    + Best single hit nuke in game
    + high match damage that gets stronger after each reviving
    + ability to revive means he must be taken out last
    + generates green AP to help trigger passive
    + high defensive deterrent, especially when paired with a booster

    Cons:
    - low health pool
    - takes self damage for each match he tanks (with the exception of match ending hit)
    - takes high self damage when he uses red (with the exception of match ending hit)
    - does significant damage to teammates when revived
    - high maintenance cost
    - random green AP generation double edge sword (sometimes spawns in undesirable location)
    - isn't ideal for one-on-one type battles

    Those weaknesses of iHulk you're listing are only when the player is using him. When you're fighting him all of that doesnt matter, at all. And sadly we have to fight him all the time, hope that clarifies things.
  • Tony_FootTony_Foot Posts: 1,116 Chairperson of the Boards
    Just allow only one five star in pvp, job done. You can still use your fast teams in pve and pvp might have a bit more variety. We can then also use some of the four stars that rarely get used.
  • WarbringaWarbringa Posts: 1,202 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited 16 February 2021, 20:47
    Yeah we do need a hard counter to iHulk and Okoye counter in 5* PvP and with the following abilities: 

    1.) Quake like AoE protection scaled to 5* powers and the character is immune to stun conditional passive
    2.) Fortified tiles (up to 3 or 4 tiles) producing active ability that drains enemy team-up AP and prevent enemy characters from respawning if they die while it is on the board (permanent too, not just they come back when the tile disappears) 
    3.) Moderate damage, low cost active power that also steals a small amount of AP used to fuel ability 2 - but as a cost the character prevents the accumulation of friendly team-up AP too so people just don't pair this character with Okoye and ihulk too
  • AnonAnon Posts: 1,267 Chairperson of the Boards
    Oh hey look, this conversation again. It's been a few days, figured it was a matter of time.
  • Chrynos1989Chrynos1989 Posts: 164 Tile Toppler
    You know what’s funny?

    People not seeing that this game is competitive, even the pve has leaderboards
    People will always try to be stronger than their opponents, chasing the best chars to get them high ASAP
    And there will always be a meta to chase, if you nerf that meta, people will find a new one and chase that to be on top and after that Meta is nerfed they’ll chase the next meta until all is wasp
    the main problem here is that people with 550 chars can see people with 450 chars, you champ one 5* and you’re free real estate, that should be changed

    but still it will stay a competitive game

    and if you don’t want competition, go play hay day
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