Okoye everywhere

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  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,454 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited March 2021
    Exploits are a bit more like finding a bug and making use of it - to me that's like taking BRB/Polaris up against Carbage, and then having the opponent Start of BAttle auto-turn give you a bunch of free protect tiles because of the bugged interaction with Polaris on their turn. Okoye's damage isn't "unexpected," it's just how the power works. I would grant you that the winfinite is probably more of an exploit, but also it must not have been that much of a concern to them because they "fixed" the least important part of it - there are characters at all tiers of the game that still work just fine with that same combo from 1* Juggernaut up to 5torm, so I remain baffled by the choice to destroy Danver5 rather than adjust one of the actual lynchpin characters involved in it myself. I'm still waiting for that yellow-power killer to come out and reveal itself to us. I thought it might be Magneto, but I don't think it would have been that dominant actually.
  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,275 Chairperson of the Boards
    Mayo said:
    DAZ0273 said:
    Mayo,

    I don't understand this talk about "exploiting the system"? How have any players who chose to chase Okoye exploited anything? Tall rosters v broad rosters has always been a thing, no?  Pursuing an "all eggs in one basket" strategy is always risky (same for 4* players who exclusively chase Kitty, likewise see GAMBIT) but I can't see how it is an "exploit"? Your additional comments in point  3 seem to be also heading towards some strange place about relating a mobile phone game to people seeking a competitive edge in a competitive game as somehow making the player morally bad?!?!?

    Levels as requested: Okoye 5/3/3 lvl 390 and iHulk 2/2/1 lvl 300 but I don't really use either much. So I have no dog in this fight at all but your last post is verging on paranoid, matey!
    Hi, an exploit us anything that should not happen in a system, like parking your car in a place reserved for pregnants or having a winfinite with 5* captain marvel that worked flawlessly against almost any team.

    As it has been abundantly commented, okoye amplifies damage to unexpected levels. With half thor you have very good attack and poor defense but with ihulk attack and defense are supreme always.

    I am not pro okoye nerf, as stated from the start i prefer devs taking a mitigating acción,  why? Because the only way to counter that team consistently is with the same team. So go ahead, do so but in the way dont baby seal everyone else since it is bad for gameplay and business. 

    Would you play a game where you have no chance to win?
    Would you play a game where one day you are playing against other players qui pro quo and the next few weeks they got okoye 50+  levels up? Better offer a 50lvl boost for okoye at 1000usd and watch how it sells while the game shuts down.
    Can you play the game that way? Of course, but that does not make it correct or the way to go.
    Having so many teams and ways to play is this this kind of exploits that will end the game in the long run.

    Devs read all posts i guess and being repetitive is something i dont like. I myself have spent too much money for the season after spending no money since the first shardmagedon. I started putting some money until last week but now i will again return to making my target wins in pvp and do pve, i already have the roster to play without money and will probably start investing again when devs address this issue as they have done before.

    Devs have many options to mitigate any exploit as they have done before and even if the affected players leave the game (only the specialized ones will probably leave but as we all know evolution does not favour them)  is better to lose some fingers than lose an arm. 

    Cheers!
    Possibly we are having a language issue here but your example doesn't really work. It is up to the owners of a car par as to where somebody can park. In this instance, the Devs as the owners have said Okoye can park where she likes whether she has her baby Hulk with her or not. So nobody is breaking any rules, everything is as intended. Now your separate point of whether Okoye takes up 90% of the Car Park with her cars pushing others out I do understand but not what the solution is that isn't an Okoye nerf? Maybe she can only park her car for an hour? I mean it is Baby Hulk who is pushing all the shopping trolleys into other shoppers whilst Okoye looks for her purse but the Devs haven't called for Security yet and Okoye is such a good customer they don't wanna turn her away.

    That became much more shopping oriented than intended! The point being though: Big Okoye + baby Hulk is not an exploit, it is a gamestyle choice. You may not like it (I hate the team too) but it is within the rules and calling out players for using this team is in my opinion not right. If they earned the resources to chase the team, good for them.
  • Bad
    Bad Posts: 3,146 Chairperson of the Boards
    To summarize things(another time):

    -Ihulk deals 15k damage per turn(5000 AoE) on a hard to counter passive that will take its tax on the initial turns. Its the most powerful and free passive on game( perhaps mitigated by damaging allies reviving. But what is the point of that on pvp, isnt it?)

    -okoye with just 3 TU doubles that passive, in other words accelerates by 2 that passive without any tradeoff. But there is more folks. With 6 TU triples that effect.


    In a game were all characters need to collect AP before doing anything THERE WILL BE NO BETTER TEAM THAN THEM.  In other words,  A BROKEN META. 
    How it is posible to counter a broken team? With characters with broken passives. Or perhaps needing AP to fire it, hence another time inefficient.
    I think the blame is not on players for exploiting it, its on devs for allowing it and no taking actions.
    Now that I think its clear that its a team that cannot be countered miraculously(dont expect to come another savior of the mutantkind) and its clear than they top the pvp ranking, they are populating pvp and obviously all players will chase them more. What it was a mere issue 6 months ago,  now is a fact and in the future will be the rule as more and more players joining the meta.
    Lets look at the only options available for all teams having a chance, thats it, nerfs:
    Ihulk and okoye could be nerfed in a soft or in a radical way:

    The soft way would be to collect some AP or TU before starting their rolling. That would make them less excelling on defense, as players could have a bit more of time to deny or do their play before wasting all the health packs. Still they would be the best on ofense. 
    The radical way would be to make Ihulk or okoye unable to be boosted/boost AoE. Certainly that will end hulkoye meta, but it is not recommended. 

    From my pov, both should follow the first option. Although I would expect only Ihulk being changed.
    It is posible to make positive changes with it favoring the characters: Ihulk would need to have perhaps 3 green AP to activate green door, and in exchange he could damage less his allies. That way people could be chasing him.
    And like I said on other thread, okoye could have 3 TU before activating WF, in exchange she would not lose TU anymore.
  • Phumade
    Phumade Posts: 2,496 Chairperson of the Boards
    To summarize my points from earlier.

    A much simpler tweak that  would avoid requiring the Devs to issue Compensation would be to

    1.  Adjust MMR (as they have done in the past) to provide a more diverse selection of opponents.

    Its important to keep in context the current score and placement tier.  Hulkoke matches for 4* players below 1200 = Frustrating Tedium.  Hulkoye matches between 5* rosters competing for top 5% = high level competition.

    Overall there needs to be more meta level teams that promote counter teams like PX/onslaught BRB/Gritty,  thorPOC, to Hulkoye.  Less nerfs and more power creep.

    Let’s have Funner matches through Progression AND Open Tier high level play for placement prizes.
  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,275 Chairperson of the Boards
    ThaRoadWarrior said:
    Exploits are a bit more like finding a bug and making use of it - to me that's like taking BRB/Polaris up against Carbage, and then having the opponent Start of BAttle auto-turn give you a bunch of free protect tiles because of the bugged interaction with Polaris on their turn. Okoye's damage isn't "unexpected," it's just how the power works. I would grant you that the winfinite is probably more of an exploit, but also it must not have been that much of a concern to them because they "fixed" the least important part of it - there are characters at all tiers of the game that still work just fine with that same combo from 1* Juggernaut up to 5torm, so I remain baffled by the choice to destroy Danver5 rather than adjust one of the actual lynchpin characters involved in it myself. I'm still waiting for that yellow-power killer to come out and reveal itself to us. I thought it might be Magneto, but I don't think it would have been that dominant actually.
    Gambatt - that was an exploit, albeit a perfectly "legal" one but definitely outside the design perimeters of 3* Gambit. The Devs shut it down because their stated intentions are you don't partly build characters on purpose, especially easy to get 3* characters. So what about Thor you might say? It does appear to be double standards on the face of it but he has been "fine" since 2017 so I can't see anything happens this far along.
  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,275 Chairperson of the Boards
    I think the Devs demonstrated pretty clearly what they think of easier progression in PvP when they scrapped the original SCL10 progression structure in fairly quick time. We are not getting any free rides to 1200.
  • Sekilicious
    Sekilicious Posts: 1,766 Chairperson of the Boards
    DAZ0273 said:
    I think the Devs demonstrated pretty clearly what they think of easier progression in PvP when they scrapped the original SCL10 progression structure in fairly quick time. We are not getting any free rides to 1200.
    I agree this is the correct answer regarding progression. The current structure has been around for years and people have been asking for easier progress for just as long. It is fun to talk about. Hopefully the developers decide that it makes better sense economically to improve the progression structure in PvP. I’m not holding my breath. 
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    They have already improved it by implementing wins conditions, which was suggested by that segment of players. Back then, the probability of hitting the last progression reward is virtually zero.
  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,275 Chairperson of the Boards
    HoundofShadow said:
    They have already improved it by implementing wins conditions, which was suggested by that segment of players. Back then, the probability of hitting the last progression reward is virtually zero.
    This doesn't quite tell the whole story because Wins based brought along a trade-off of strongest defensive teams which put an end to cupcakes. Arguably more people could get to the 1200 CP because players could collude with others far below their roster tier - 4* maybe even 3* could climb on the cupcakes far beyond anything they could do nowadays. 


  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,275 Chairperson of the Boards
    Bad said:
    To summarize things(another time):

    -Ihulk deals 15k damage per turn(5000 AoE) on a hard to counter passive that will take its tax on the initial turns. Its the most powerful and free passive on game( perhaps mitigated by damaging allies reviving. But what is the point of that on pvp, isnt it?)

    -okoye with just 3 TU doubles that passive, in other words accelerates by 2 that passive without any tradeoff. But there is more folks. With 6 TU triples that effect.


    In a game were all characters need to collect AP before doing anything THERE WILL BE NO BETTER TEAM THAN THEM.  In other words,  A BROKEN META. 
    How it is posible to counter a broken team? With characters with broken passives. Or perhaps needing AP to fire it, hence another time inefficient.
    I think the blame is not on players for exploiting it, its on devs for allowing it and no taking actions.
    Now that I think its clear that its a team that cannot be countered miraculously(dont expect to come another savior of the mutantkind) and its clear than they top the pvp ranking, they are populating pvp and obviously all players will chase them more. What it was a mere issue 6 months ago,  now is a fact and in the future will be the rule as more and more players joining the meta.
    Lets look at the only options available for all teams having a chance, thats it, nerfs:
    Ihulk and okoye could be nerfed in a soft or in a radical way:

    The soft way would be to collect some AP or TU before starting their rolling. That would make them less excelling on defense, as players could have a bit more of time to deny or do their play before wasting all the health packs. Still they would be the best on ofense. 
    The radical way would be to make Ihulk or okoye unable to be boosted/boost AoE. Certainly that will end hulkoye meta, but it is not recommended. 

    From my pov, both should follow the first option. Although I would expect only Ihulk being changed.
    It is posible to make positive changes with it favoring the characters: Ihulk would need to have perhaps 3 green AP to activate green door, and in exchange he could damage less his allies. That way people could be chasing him.
    And like I said on other thread, okoye could have 3 TU before activating WF, in exchange she would not lose TU anymore.
    There is a counter - I beat two Hulkoye teams today with Kitty/BRB. I assume the issue is that it is not guaranteed and is not very quick but it works.

    But we need to stop using this word "exploit". You cannot exploit something that is working as designed. If we consider Hulkoye is an unfair standard, then so are boosts. A player can stack the odds in their favour from turn one. Is that unfair? Not really because MPQ is a game designed where you are supposed to win more than you lose. As a player we have 3 X team-ups. We get the first move. The game is stacked in our favour, so it is only when characters disrupt this assumption that we will win that we start to get annoyed.

    Yes Hulkoye is a strong and very annoying team but only when we are on the receiving end.

    What we really need is an incentive to play multiple teams - whether by a rewards based tweak that incentives that or the Devs take things into their own hands with penalties for repeat use of characters in short succession.

    I don't see either happening anytime soon.
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    I couldn't remember the term cupcakes so I googled it and found this thread.

    https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/52048/whats-a-cupcake

     It seems it has already ended in 2016. I joined the game late 2017 and I'm sure win-based was implemented somewhere in 2019?

    I'm curious why players need to wait for the devs to do something in order for them to use other characters. Strangely, the devs has to give the players incentives for using characters that they don't use.
    It's weird because those players are the one intiating the request, and yet the dev has to reward them for implementing their request. Can't players simply and consciously make the decision to use other characters, rather than waiting for the dev to force them to use characters they don't use?
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,454 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited March 2021
    HoundofShadow said:
    [...]I'm curious why players need to wait for the devs to do something in order for them to use other characters. [...]
    I was playing a few rounds of the Dark Beast pvp the other day with my 7 year old daughter, and she was randomly picking characters she'd heard of or liked the look of scrolling the list. We didn't win a single match because "I want to play all the spider-mans!" wasn't going to work in my 5* MMR. There is limited to no value in losing matches in this game, so if we aren't going to be incentivized to play sub-optimal teams, we probably aren't going to be playing too many sub-optimal teams.  (assuming we have the option to do otherwise - if they're all you have, they're all you're playing).
    DAZ0273said:
    So what about Thor you might say? It does appear to be double standards on the face of it but he has been "fine" since 2017 so I can't see anything happens this far along.
    The distinction with Gambattery was that a 0/0/5 Gambit was superior to a fully constructed Gambit as he wouldn't preclude the use of team mate red and purple powers without any covers in them. A 5/0/0 Thor isn't "better" per se, just "good enough." I absolutely prefer my champed Thor to my unchamped thor even without a 13-levels-higher Okoye to go with him.
  • Phumade
    Phumade Posts: 2,496 Chairperson of the Boards
    HoundofShadow said:
    I couldn't remember the term cupcakes so I googled it and found this thread.

    https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/52048/whats-a-cupcake

     It seems it has already ended in 2016. I joined the game late 2017 and I'm sure win-based was implemented somewhere in 2019?
    Ironic to see this point. 1. Blast fro. The past to see the names on those posts. I hope to god the message counter is current and not a then picture of num of posts lol. 2. This is actually the last time they implemented a mmr change.
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,454 Chairperson of the Boards
    The lingo for hardcore PVP play is like joining a secret society lol. Grills, cupcakes, trapcakes...I assume that community spends most of their time on Line but occasionally it bleeds over into the forums and I'm just like "yeah, i'm not about that life but i'm glad y'all are having fun..." 
  • Borstock
    Borstock Posts: 2,733 Chairperson of the Boards
    ThaRoadWarrior said:
    The lingo for hardcore PVP play is like joining a secret society lol. Grills, cupcakes, trapcakes...I assume that community spends most of their time on Line but occasionally it bleeds over into the forums and I'm just like "yeah, i'm not about that life but i'm glad y'all are having fun..." 

    I was part of Line for a while. It is fun, but it's also a pretty big time commitment to do it right. I imagine it's harder now, too, since snipers can mow you down pretty quick with Hulkoye. Although, I guess shield hops are probably faster than when I was playing that way. Maybe it evens out.
    Hulk is the problem. Okoye without Hulk is easy to defeat, even at 550. What stinks is that so many of the 5* characters of late have been terrible that a lot players pulled for Okoye levels. Now, I'm looking at 550 Okoye and 460 Hulk teams and it's like, "do I really want to do this to myself?" Yeah, I can probably beat it with BRBitty, but I'm still taking significant damage against a 550.
  • fight4thedream
    fight4thedream GLOBAL_MODERATORS Posts: 1,973 Chairperson of the Boards
    Kolence said:@fight4thedream
    I would add as one of the big "pros" for Hulk that his adding a single green tile, then destroying two, somehow manages to create a lot of cascades. It happens quite often. 

    My guess would be trying to outpace his auto damage and deny the AI TUs, yellow or red matches, we players are likely to make match-4s. Whether to try and get as much AP for some active powers that can somewhat counter Hulk's passive - mostly by spamming the board with special tiles, or making a match that the AI certainly would have on next turn. Doing so it just makes more new (green) tiles drop onto the board, and likelihood of removing already present green special tiles also increases.

    BTW, his threshold number really is on the low side, but maybe straight up increasing it would make him too unreliable? Average number of tiles of a color should be 9. He'll do his thing if there are 7 (and spawning the tile doesn't make a match). But at the same time, when there are much more green tiles, spawning the tile can more easily cause extra cascades.

    I actually really like how that plays and how it makes Hulk feel dangerous. But it is maybe a bit much? :D
    Maybe if Hulk would prevent green tiles from dropping on his start of turn passive resolution? Or reducing the chance a lot? That might slow him somewhat. While also giving other chars like Storm or Onslaught more value as partners for him.

    For all the good sides Okoye has, she's not really self accelerating. It kind of helps my argument too... :)

    Also, don't agree about Bishop and stun being the only counter. Once a stun power is the only counter for something, that something is too broken... (slightly joking, but not really)
    That's a good point and an oversight on my part. I will edit my post to add his propensity to cause cascades as an additional pro of his power set. Thanks!  @Kolence

    I've noticed the conversation has diverged somewhat into a discussion of semantics and MMR but let's try to bring it back to the heart of the matter: Why does Okoye feature so prominently in the meta? And perhaps more importantly, how does she affect the meta? For the first questions, I think most players would agree she is one of the most player friendly characters in the game, particularly because her skillset allows players to reliably punch up above their weight class and with the certain characters, she does so with great speed and efficiency. 

    Now on the surface, that seems to be a great deal: being able to take down stronger enemies is definitely a desirable attribute that any player looks for when considering a character's value. The problem, however, is that she is arguably too efficient.  The only real major drawback to the character is that on her own she doesn't offer high defensive value. With that said, however, the vast majority of matches are team matches and with the right partner, her defensive vulnerability can be compensated for.  Considering this, it's no surprise why players have gone out of their way to make sure she is their highest level character.

    But there's the rub: we now have a class of players whose only high level character is Okoye who enables them to punch beyond their weight class, meaning they are able to face most max champ five stars team with little risk of loss.  I think it demonstrates bad game balance when one high level character, not even necessarily maxed champ, is able to take down teams of maxed champed 5* with relative ease, when paired with a much lower champed character. 

    This was the main complaint against Okoye/Thor teams. Yes, they were easily beatable on defense but they made a joke of practical any other team in the game, regardless of the opponent team level. And now that the dev team has released a more powerful, efficient offensive character, Thor has been replaced and those playing competitively at the high end are awash in a sea of teams featuring high level Okoye again. 

    The truth of the matter is there is little disincentive to not use her. There are only perhaps 2 or 3  characters in the 5* tier that offer any sort of decent counter to her particular skillset but each comes with their own particular drawbacks that keep them from making an impact on the meta. The best counter, Onslaught, is hampered by his own lack of consistent offensive power and being limited to who he plays well with. Adam Warlock's Cosmic Skein is arguably a counter but he performs rather poorly in terms of defensive deterrence and is lost in Immortal Hulk's shadow.  Finally there's Samurai Daken's Lethal Fury which can permanently reduce a character's health but his overall skillset is unfortunately weak sauce. 

    At least with Kitty's boosting ability, there are effective hard counter mechanics such as Black Suit Spider-Man to nullify strike tiles, Daredevil's Sonar Strike to turn her boost against her and various special tile removal abilities. As far as I am aware, there are aren't any abilities like that for Okoye's boosting ability. The closest we currently have is Onslaught's TU denial. 

    Yes, the player can move the opponent Okoye to the back to burn the enemy TU AP pool but obviously that isn't quite enough to encourage players to use other characters. 

    So what is to be done? If you the dev team nerfs iHulk, we will in all likelihood go back to Okoye/Thor meta with a healthy side of Thor/Apocalypse to deal with those pesky BRB teams. But that doesn't fix the problem because somewhere down the road they will once again release a character with some crazy offensive ability that can easily be boosted with Okoye. 

    If the dev team nerfs Okoye, Apocalypse will simply take her place (not to mention the huge backlash that will ensue).  Yes, Apocalypse's boost does take a bit more to get going and doesn't stack but his other abilities makes him a fitting substitute. [Ok, as a Marvel comics fan, that was just the weirdest thing for me to say. I am sorry but MPQ's mishandling of lore has always been a sore point for me (-_-;)] .

    Perhaps, similarly to what has happened with Thor after iHulk was released, they will release a new character with a better boost and deadlier skill set that essentially renders Okoye obsolete. However, considering how so many competitive players have a high level if not max champed Okoye, such a character would have to a considerably better boost or crazy skillset which I find difficult to imagine. Or also include a hard counter to Okoye's abilities. 

    But if none of that happens, she will still be the go to character for the majority of high end competitive players in both PvP and PvE, still evaluate a new character's value in terms of how well they synergize with her (or other boosters to be fair) and the meta will still be dominated by her. 
  • tonypq
    tonypq Posts: 557 Critical Contributor
    Who knows how much consideration D3 takes into account what interactions some characters may have with each other, in regards to designing characters. It seems to me as popular as Okoye is and how Wakanda Forever works, D3 should of realized how powerful a combo she'd make with Ihulk once they were creating him. 

    They obviously knew how the WF power boost works, as well as how Ihulks passive damage would interact with it. They went ahead and released Ihulk as we have him today. Those fed up with this combo should direct some of their frustration directly at D3. 

    I think both characters are fine on their own, they just happen to get turbo charged when paired together. The interaction with WF and instant ramp up of Ihulks passive. I don't want to see either nerfed personally. As often as new characters come out, they've had plenty of chances to release one or two that had abilities to limit and or counteract Okoye/Ihulk and they failed to do so. I'd rather have new characters released with abilities to even the playing field, broaden the top tier and or meta rather than nerf anyone. 

    With all that said however you can't help but feel that D3 may grudgingly or not do something down the road with Okoye. Once even more level 500+s are out there saturating the game and every pass is another 550. If D3 decides not to make any changes, many players without high level Okoyes might decide to jump on the train, those with under 500 Okoyes may continue throwing vast resources to power level her. 

    Ihulk isn't going to be the last character to make a super strong combo with Okoye. Whether some other character has passive damage, cheap actives, or used with a third wheel character who can reduce ability cost, greatly accelerate attack power generation etc. The way WF works with no ramp up time or boost limit, there are likely going to be more juiced up team combos to come. 

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