Grand Experiment 2: Treading Water in the SCL 10 Post-Shardpocalypse

Vhailorx

@KGB said:

@entrailbucket said:
That's absolutely wild.

Everyone else: this is what happens when you're in Classics full-time. Go back like 10 or 20 pages on here and look at the state of roadwarrior's roster when he made the move to Classics, and where it's at now.

Wow, it was 3 1/2 years ago that he started this thread. Time is flying by as I would have sworn it wasn't more than 2 years old.

It's the 3 1/2 years part than Classics that explains the difference in roster. I say that because even if he earned 30 cp a day that's only 10950 a year. The difference between spending that in latest vs classics is only 109 covers per year. That's not even 1 extra level on every 4* a year. In 3 years that's maybe 3 extra levels. That would be an imperceptible difference in roster level.

Most of the gain has come from LTs + earning shards/covers in PvP/PvE + 3* farming etc. Yes, Classics helps a bit but an extra 100 covers a year didn't account for this roster change.

KGB
P.S. Note - I am speculating on his CP / day earnings since he never really listed his daily / weekly / monthly earnings anywhere that I saw. 30 CP a day seems reasonable.

But it's not just the extra 4* covers themselves. It's also the champ rewards those covers generate, especially in the level 340+ range where the champ rewards get really really good. So going classics equals more covers, which equals more champ rewards which generates more classics.

KGB

@Vhailorx said:

@KGB said:

@entrailbucket said:
That's absolutely wild.

Everyone else: this is what happens when you're in Classics full-time. Go back like 10 or 20 pages on here and look at the state of roadwarrior's roster when he made the move to Classics, and where it's at now.

Wow, it was 3 1/2 years ago that he started this thread. Time is flying by as I would have sworn it wasn't more than 2 years old.

It's the 3 1/2 years part than Classics that explains the difference in roster. I say that because even if he earned 30 cp a day that's only 10950 a year. The difference between spending that in latest vs classics is only 109 covers per year. That's not even 1 extra level on every 4* a year. In 3 years that's maybe 3 extra levels. That would be an imperceptible difference in roster level.

Most of the gain has come from LTs + earning shards/covers in PvP/PvE + 3* farming etc. Yes, Classics helps a bit but an extra 100 covers a year didn't account for this roster change.

KGB
P.S. Note - I am speculating on his CP / day earnings since he never really listed his daily / weekly / monthly earnings anywhere that I saw. 30 CP a day seems reasonable.

But it's not just the extra 4* covers themselves. It's also the champ rewards those covers generate, especially in the level 340+ range where the champ rewards get really really good. So going classics equals more covers, which equals more champ rewards which generates more classics.

But we can work that out (quick back of envelope). For example if you spend 10K cp on classic vs latest you get an extra 100 covers. Approximately 15 5's and 85 4's.

4* generate an extra LT (or 5 star cover) every 10 levels so 80 more covers = 8 more pulls/covers. You get CP roughly every 3 levels so 25 more CP rewards of varying sizes (lets average that at 8) or 200 more CP which is 10 more pulls. That's 18 more pulls from 4s. Assuming his 5s champed, you get CP or LT every 3rd which works out to 10ish more pulls from 15 5* champ covers. Total it up and you get 28 more pulls (18+10). You can then do the math on what those 28 generates but lets call it +10 more or 38 in total from rewards on rewards on rewards.

So the extra 100 pulls in classics works out to say 138 total covers after rewards applied and then respent back in classics. That's still only roughly 1 extra level on all your 4* per 10000 CP spent in classics.

Now if he's earning 80 a day as Bowgentle suggests thats 80x365 = 29,200 a year (call it 30k). So that means he'd earn 138x3 = extra covers a year or approximately +3 levels on all his 4* each year. After 3 years of doing it, he's roughly +9 levels ahead on every 4*.

KGB

Zalasta

KGB - don't forget about bonus shards. Those end up being pretty significant over that many pulls.

ThaRoadWarrior

Also don’t forget that they just increased the 5* odds in Classic.

entrailbucket

For whatever reason the math has just never captured what's actually going on when we do this.

I cannot count the number of times I've had a version of this discussion/argument, and the only answer I ever had was "it works for me in practice, I don't know why." Mostly that ended up with them giving reasons why it worked for me but could never work for anyone else (tenure, competitiveness, spend, etc).

Now it works for roadwarrior too, he doesn't fit the same tenure/competitiveness/spend levels as me, and he potentially got to a better place faster than I did. I always suspected it was the additional 4* this method generated, but like me, he appears to have stopped tracking, so we'll probably never know!

KGB

How much do bonus shards really matter here? I think you get 1% chance of 500 5* shards per pull so 140+ extra pulls is 1.4 extra covers (and roughly 1.4 more 4* covers too). Are you really going to notice 4-5 extra covers per 10000 CP when we are talking about earning thousands of covers a year (across classics, LTs, shards, earned covers from events, vaults etc). They are a rounding error.

Entrailbucket, I'm definitely not saying this doesn't work. In fact I'd say what you and Roadwarrior are doing works very well indeed. Once you can ride the 'latest train' (covering new 5s just from LTs, feeders, shards, boss events etc before they leave latest), then you should definitely switch to using this system (spending CP in classics). The only reason not to do so is if you want to attempt to 550 a meta trio via a special store in which case you need to save massive amounts of CP. But if you want a well rounded roster where all your top characters are close in level so you have a wide variety of teams to use, this is the way to go because even if you only get +3 extra levels a year on your characters it's worth it. The only point I was trying to make is that classics alone doesn't explain his roster improvement, it's simply a product of hard work (a lot of playing and earning rewards/farming etc).

KGB

Vhailorx

@KGB said:
How much do bonus shards really matter here? I think you get 1% chance of 500 5* shards per pull so 140+ extra pulls is 1.4 extra covers (and roughly 1.4 more 4* covers too). Are you really going to notice 4-5 extra covers per 10000 CP when we are talking about earning thousands of covers a year (across classics, LTs, shards, earned covers from events, vaults etc). They are a rounding error.

Entrailbucket, I'm definitely not saying this doesn't work. In fact I'd say what you and Roadwarrior are doing works very well indeed. Once you can ride the 'latest train' (covering new 5s just from LTs, feeders, shards, boss events etc before they leave latest), then you should definitely switch to using this system (spending CP in classics). The only reason not to do so is if you want to attempt to 550 a meta trio via a special store in which case you need to save massive amounts of CP. But if you want a well rounded roster where all your top characters are close in level so you have a wide variety of teams to use, this is the way to go because even if you only get +3 extra levels a year on your characters it's worth it. The only point I was trying to make is that classics alone doesn't explain his roster improvement, it's simply a product of hard work (a lot of playing and earning rewards/farming etc).

KGB

I think +9 levels on average across all 4* s is pretty significant, given the size of the 4* tier. It doesn't need to explain the entirety of roadwarrior's roster to be a significant factor.

As for shards, I think that's a bit harder to calculate for a couple of reasons (1) because they shards system has changed during the past 3 years, and (2) because classics and LTs offer different rates of bonus shards. Has anyone done the math on bonus covers with the new(ish) pity system?

entrailbucket

Didn't they just make a big change to the bonus rate from Classics? Or was that awhile ago? There was something but I can't remember now.

9 levels across all 4* sounds pretty lame, but you're right -- that's a ton of covers.

Vhailorx

@entrailbucket said:
Didn't they just make a big change to the bonus rate from Classics? Or was that awhile ago? There was something but I can't remember now.

9 levels across all 4* sounds pretty lame, but you're right -- that's a ton of covers.

And they aren't evenly distributed. So it will be +3-5 for some characters, but +20 for others. And of course the number of 4* s has only gone up over 3 years, so the older 4* s will get more benefit compared to the newer ones. And looking at the batch of 4* s that roadwarrior was able to ascend the list is heavy on (i) old characters (is Shuri the newest?) and (ii) I think a lot of the first group of latest 12s from back in the day when that was a thing. Those characters got a decent level boost relative to their contemporaries and have always been a bit inflated on my own roster.

Bowgentle

Bonus shards matter A LOT.
Whenever I pull a couple of hundred, the faved 4 gets 20+ levels, and the 5 gets 4 to 5.

KGB

@Bowgentle said:
Bonus shards matter A LOT.
Whenever I pull a couple of hundred, the faved 4 gets 20+ levels, and the 5 gets 4 to 5.

A lot relative to what? If 200 extra draws nets 20+ 4 star levels and 4-5 5 star levels then using the math above that's +30 4 star covers and +6 5 star covers in a whole year (based on 30K cp in classics vs latest). Compared to 1000+ covers earned per year (from all sources), 35 more is a rounding error.

KGB

KGB

@Vhailorx said:

@entrailbucket said:
Didn't they just make a big change to the bonus rate from Classics? Or was that awhile ago? There was something but I can't remember now.

9 levels across all 4* sounds pretty lame, but you're right -- that's a ton of covers.

And of course the number of 4* s has only gone up over 3 years, so the older 4* s will get more benefit compared to the newer ones.

This is the elephant in the room. There are something like 220 characters now in the 4 and 5 tier combined. That means an extra 220 covers a year earned is now only +1 level per year on average. If the method generates an extra 140 covers per 10000 cp and you earn 30000 a year that's 420 covers a year and not quite +2 levels now (vs +3 when he started). As time goes on dilution only gets worse.

None of that changes the idea that it's a good thing to do, because +420 covers is +420 covers even if the overall average level of the roster doesn't rise as much.

KGB

dramatist

You get 20% more pulls using cp for classics. You should get almost 20% more 4* covers and a bit more than 20% extra 5* covers. You also get 20% more shards and 20% more chances at bonus shards. This leads to 20% more rewards. This all seems like a good trade off for a bit of randomness unless you’re specifically trying to grow a particular 5*.

Vhailorx

@dramatist said:
You get 20% more pulls using cp for classics. You should get almost 20% more 4* covers and a bit more than 20% extra 5* covers. You also get 20% more shards and 20% more chances at bonus shards. This leads to 20% more rewards. This all seems like a good trade off for a bit of randomness unless you’re specifically trying to grow a particular 5*.

As of a few months ago at least, there was a lower rate of bonus shards for classics. I never did the math though to figure out if the lower bonus rate was basically offset by the lower cost of classics, so the bonus shard/cp ratio was even, or if one option produced more bonus shards in the long run.

Bowgentle

@KGB said:

@Bowgentle said:
Bonus shards matter A LOT.
Whenever I pull a couple of hundred, the faved 4 gets 20+ levels, and the 5 gets 4 to 5.

A lot relative to what? If 200 extra draws nets 20+ 4 star levels and 4-5 5 star levels then using the math above that's +30 4 star covers and +6 5 star covers in a whole year (based on 30K cp in classics vs latest). Compared to 1000+ covers earned per year (from all sources), 35 more is a rounding error.

KGB

I mean sure everything is relative.
Would you rather have no bonus shards?
I don't get that post.

ThaRoadWarrior

Juggernaut is probably the newest, but I ground him to max on purpose because I use him on my easy node clear team daily.

KGB

@Bowgentle said:

@KGB said:

@Bowgentle said:
Bonus shards matter A LOT.
Whenever I pull a couple of hundred, the faved 4 gets 20+ levels, and the 5 gets 4 to 5.

A lot relative to what? If 200 extra draws nets 20+ 4 star levels and 4-5 5 star levels then using the math above that's +30 4 star covers and +6 5 star covers in a whole year (based on 30K cp in classics vs latest). Compared to 1000+ covers earned per year (from all sources), 35 more is a rounding error.

KGB

I mean sure everything is relative.
Would you rather have no bonus shards?
I don't get that post.

Someone asked about factoring in bonus heroes when I was doing the back of the envelope math on how many extra covers you'd earn in a year drawing Classics vs Latest. I said the extra bonus heroes changed the math by a minimal amount when considering the difference so I hadn't bothered to do it (420 covers without bonus heroes or 450 with isn't a big difference on over all roster level when you have to distribute those +30 covers across 220+ characters).

Then you wrote about shards mattering a lot and I wrote my reply. Obviously every last cover matters since it improves your roster in some manner. It's just that when considering Classic vs Latest CP pulls it doesn't advance your roster much at all if you get +30 covers a year when you consider that's across 220+ characters (averages less than 1/10 of a cover).

We are just talking about 2 different things.

KGB

BriMan2222

@dramatist said:
You get 20% more pulls using cp for classics. You should get almost 20% more 4* covers and a bit more than 20% extra 5* covers. You also get 20% more shards and 20% more chances at bonus shards. This leads to 20% more rewards. This all seems like a good trade off for a bit of randomness unless you’re specifically trying to grow a particular 5*.

I had about 1500 cp saved up and noticed that Wanda is featured in classics. She's my next 5 star I'm trying to 550 so I thought, What the heck I'll give classics a try. I got 3 covers for her plus 3 covers in bonus shards, plus a bunch of random other 5 stars. Just from the small amount of CP I pulled, the difference between the amount of rewards when I have pulled a similar amount of CP from latest or a special store was noticeable. I think I've been converted to using my CP on classics now.

rainkingucd

@BriMan2222 said:

@dramatist said:
You get 20% more pulls using cp for classics. You should get almost 20% more 4* covers and a bit more than 20% extra 5* covers. You also get 20% more shards and 20% more chances at bonus shards. This leads to 20% more rewards. This all seems like a good trade off for a bit of randomness unless you’re specifically trying to grow a particular 5*.

I had about 1500 cp saved up and noticed that Wanda is featured in classics. She's my next 5 star I'm trying to 550 so I thought, What the heck I'll give classics a try. I got 3 covers for her plus 3 covers in bonus shards, plus a bunch of random other 5 stars. Just from the small amount of CP I pulled, the difference between the amount of rewards when I have pulled a similar amount of CP from latest or a special store was noticeable. I think I've been converted to using my CP on classics now.

One of us, one of us!

entrailbucket

Welcome to the team!