Feedback Wanted: Character Balance

Bad

Balance is fine right now

Nerfing is the worst idea. Making characters who can counter him is the best option.
Usually nerfing makes players to quit because they see how the char which they spent more time and resources renders useless. 
That is not fair and there is no posible compensation.
I saw players running bishop level 350. Those 93 bishop covers how are gonna be compensated? Simply no way.
And what happens to that char is that dies. No one is going to play a char nerfed.
Personally I dont have any problem with bishop now. But if  I champ apoc some day then directly I will hit any bishop team I find.

trat73

MrPlow said:

Don't expect WorthyCap to get rebalanced if the devs are willing to put him the Simulator event along with 5"HE in the 5* node.

Probably same thing with Bishop seeing he's in the 4* node.

I almost see this as the opposite. Like they're saying "look how hard it is to play against these guys. They should be fixed" Just my 2 cents. 

The rockett

Some characters could use super soldier serum

Bad said:

Nerfing is the worst idea. Making characters who can counter him is the best option.
Usually nerfing makes players to quit because they see how the char which they spent more time and resources renders useless. 
That is not fair and there is no posible compensation.
I saw players running bishop level 350. Those 93 bishop covers how are gonna be compensated? Simply no way.
And what happens to that char is that dies. No one is going to play a char nerfed.
Personally I dont have any problem with bishop now. But if  I champ apoc some day then directly I will hit any bishop team I find.

Bishop is completely broken.  He needed to be fixed months and months ago.  Now, let’s take your example of Apocalypse.  He is a 5*.  Are you telling me it takes a 5* to combat a 4*? If so, that is absolutely crazy.   The massive blue gain that bishop has is still insane.  Best example is this SIM pve 4E node.  Bishop with another blue stunner.   They know he is broken and don’t do anything.  He needs to be rebalanced and I am not saying he needs to be worthless but it needs to be done.  

Sm0keyJ0e

The rockett said:

Bad said:

Nerfing is the worst idea. Making characters who can counter him is the best option.
Usually nerfing makes players to quit because they see how the char which they spent more time and resources renders useless. 
That is not fair and there is no posible compensation.
I saw players running bishop level 350. Those 93 bishop covers how are gonna be compensated? Simply no way.
And what happens to that char is that dies. No one is going to play a char nerfed.
Personally I dont have any problem with bishop now. But if  I champ apoc some day then directly I will hit any bishop team I find.

Bishop is completely broken.  He needed to be fixed months and months ago.  Now, let’s take your example of Apocalypse.  He is a 5*.  Are you telling me it takes a 5* to combat a 4*? If so, that is absolutely crazy.   The massive blue gain that bishop has is still insane.  Best example is this SIM pve 4E node.  Bishop with another blue stunner.   They know he is broken and don’t do anything.  He needs to be rebalanced and I am not saying he needs to be worthless but it needs to be done.  

Not just Apocalypse, but another mutant with him. So specifically two toons to counter one stupid 4* toon that was broken on release. 

And "Nerfing is the worst idea. Making characters who can counter him is the best option." This is a misinformed statement. What if Bishop generated 8 blue each time? 14 blue? What is the right amount? You think the devs nailed it at 5 blue every time someone with a 5* makes a match 3? Some characters are broken immediately or not thought out, and that is exactly why most companies rebalance characters. It's none of our faults they don't know how to rebalance them correctly.

Lastly, have you seen their track record trying to create counters? Go read 8 million pages on Gambit.

Bad

Balance is fine right now

One thing is to rebalance and other is the opposite. Dont say rebalance when its nerfing. 
He is a problem for 5* who deal more damage.  So its ok that another 5* can crush him. Because if he cant stun for 4 turns there is no threat anymore.
If he is not efective anymore obviously things can change.
That is how games work too.

krakenoon

Sm0keyJ0e said:

 "Nerfing is the worst idea. Making characters who can counter him is the best option." This is a misinformed statement. What if Bishop generated 8 blue each time? 14 blue? What is the right amount? You think the devs nailed it at 5 blue every time someone with a 5* makes a match 3?

I think 5 per proc is a fair amount, what would I spend 5 blue AP on when even cheap powers are 6-7?. Also I see nothing wrong with allowing players who haven’t broken into 5* play to force any 5* rosters that want their points to be more strategic in their approach.

I would note that the snippet above is basically straw man. I agree nerfing is a bad option. If you’re in 5* land, you’ve had your chance to play with Bishop. If he gets nerfed, well I would point to to the same Gambit threads after his nerf. Really, in what world do you see Bishop being of any use (10 AP for a stun is ridiculous) if he is nerfed? He is a scarecrow, using him on your own team all the time requires health packs spent or some additional mechanic, this is his balance.

I do get tired of seeing him in the last rounds of PvP since my G4mora is poorly covered and Worthy is a worse option than spending 10 iso IMO. If you’ve been active in the forums, you are familiar with dev response. You know they won’t get it right on the first try and do you honestly expect them to pump a lot of hours into balancing this one character when it’s clear they are more interested in counters and shifting the meta around?

 I know you hate Bishop, it’s obvious. I myself cursed him a number of times in Simulator. His role is to allow players who are not in 5* land to hold onto points in PvP, maybe an occasional use in PvE. Still, I see tons of response from 5* players that it just takes the right approach, which is throwing a non 5 into the mix. Sucks, I know, but it also sucks that any vet/whale can knock those of us not yet in 5* land from T20 to T100 or lower in the last half hour of an event.

BriMan2222

Some characters could use a dusting of nerf powder

krakenoon said:

Sm0keyJ0e said:

 "Nerfing is the worst idea. Making characters who can counter him is the best option." This is a misinformed statement. What if Bishop generated 8 blue each time? 14 blue? What is the right amount? You think the devs nailed it at 5 blue every time someone with a 5* makes a match 3?

His role is to allow players who are not in 5* land to hold onto points in PvP

That may be what players use him for,  but I don't agree that that is his purpose from a design stand point.  I base that not on assumption or speculation but on the devs own statements. 

I remember when 5 stars were first announced.  The devs told us flat out that 5 stars were meant to be massively powerful compared to 4 stars,  they told us that 5 stars with just a few covers would be as good or better than champed 4 stars and that champed 5 stars could laugh in the face of even the best 4 stars. 

They didn't just tell us that,  they demonstrated it.  When silver surfer came out they gave us a node to test him out that was a champed surfer vs 3 of the most meta champed 4 stars in the game at the time.   I remember players actually trying to lose with surfer vs the 4 stars and couldn't because surfer was so powerful compared to a team of 3 of the best 4 stars. 

The devs flat out told us that 5 star play is the ultimate tier and 5 stars are intended to totally dominate 4 stars in every way (powers, match dmg, health) They made it clear that a team of 4 stars should not take down one 5 star, so of course it's crazy that one 4 star can shut down three 5 stars.  

I believe they only tested him against other 4 stars and didn't even realize how he would interact with 5 star match dmg.

bluewolf

Some characters could use a dusting of nerf powder

@krakenoon

I do not know if the devs like that Bishop helps a 4 player take on a 5* team.  I do not know if that was their intent with Worthy.  It is possible that they think it's helpful, given how long it take to hoard up for the 5 tier at this point for newer players, to give 4 players a possible tool while building their hoard or 5s.

It is true that in any roster building game, the vets (and whales) have a massive, massive advantage over newer players.  No matter how hard a new player plays, they will be behind for a very long time and maybe never finish some of the crucial (or at least very useful) tools that vets have.

Regardless of that, Bishop is most encountered by 5* players when other 5* players put him out with a BRB in pick 2, or BRB and Kitty in Pick 3, or mix in Carnage or someone instead of Kitty.  The point is that Bishop's utility to 4* players as a don't hit me/free shield deterrence to 5* players is much, much smaller than that same effect it conveys to 5* players.  (That said, more players might be taking him on, on occasion, since there are often few other choices.)

The thing is that MMR means that you mostly see other teams at your level.  And so when I am climbing/playing, I might see some 4* teams but usually they aren't worth very many points (sometimes it makes sense as I get near 900ish in Slice 5, where scores are lower than other slices).

If you are using Bishop to avoid getting obliterated, good for you, but the devs' approach is curious because the answer to "How do I avoid losing points?" is supposed to be "Use HP to shield and hopefully spend some money."  

Anyway, the Bishop debate has gone back and forth for a very very long time now, as he released in November 2018.  My argument has shifted a bit to "Geez, maybe we should shake up the meta JUST FOR THE SAKE OF SOME FRIGGIN VARIETY."

It's just so old at this point.  People are quitting, rightly so, out of disgust with the complete lack of care for the meta in the game, the lack of care for keeping things fresh, the lack of care for keeping things fun.

It's a video game where they release 26 characters every year.  Dozens of 4s have released since Bishop released and yet he's all you see sitting next to meta 5's like BRB, every season and every event.  What is the darn point of all these characters if they can't shake up the meta with some of them?  (Worthy, sure, but that's the closest we have come and he's only useful in very specific teams.)

krakenoon

I hear ya, I just hate having dead weight in my roster and not even hoping for decent placement in PvP events. Has there been any constructive thoughts on how to fix him without putting him in the way back with Talos? What would a sensible rebalance for him even look like? All I ever hear is Bishop is OP, kill him.

BriMan2222

Some characters could use a dusting of nerf powder

krakenoon said:

I hear ya, I just hate having dead weight in my roster and not even hoping for decent placement in PvP events. Has there been any constructive thoughts on how to fix him without putting him in the way back with Talos? What would a sensible rebalance for him even look like? All I ever hear is Bishop is OP, kill him.

There's been many suggestions for mild readjustment to bishop.  I think the most reasonable thing would be to keep him exactly the same,  just change his jump in front mechanic to work the same way as 3* deadpool or the thing. Make it so he only jumps in front if he has more health than his team mates. That way he won't jump in front when being used with 5 star team mates. 

That's how every jump in front mechanic worked before bishop. 

HoundofShadow

Some characters could use super soldier serum

Looking at those events that have transpired:

1) Worthy Bishop appeared in the fan favourite store this year.

2) Apocalypse was released with immunity to stun and high health, which I believe is to increase variation of teams that players will be able to play against.

3) These "broken" teams appeared in Shield Simulator.

If I were you (nerf-Bishop/Worthy camp), I would think that based on circumstantial evidence, they are not planning to nerf Worthy Bishop soon. 

jredd

Some characters could use super soldier serum

BriMan2222 said:

krakenoon said:

I hear ya, I just hate having dead weight in my roster and not even hoping for decent placement in PvP events. Has there been any constructive thoughts on how to fix him without putting him in the way back with Talos? What would a sensible rebalance for him even look like? All I ever hear is Bishop is OP, kill him.

There's been many suggestions for mild readjustment to bishop.  I think the most reasonable thing would be to keep him exactly the same,  just change his jump in front mechanic to work the same way as 3* deadpool or the thing. Make it so he only jumps in front if he has more health than his team mates. That way he won't jump in front when being used with 5 star team mates. 

That's how every jump in front mechanic worked before bishop. 

make it so he jumps in front only on damage greater than what the average damage is for a 5* match 3 in their strongest colours. at least then there is a strategic work around.

HoundofShadow

Some characters could use super soldier serum

In response to that, whose match damage should they based on, and at what level should it be based on?

If we average out all the 5* 3 strongest match damage, those old 5* will pull down the average.

Bad

Balance is fine right now

The rockett said:

Bishop is completely broken. Best example is this SIM pve 4E node.  Bishop with another blue stunner.   They know he is broken and don’t do anything.  He needs to be rebalanced and I am not saying he needs to be worthless but it needs to be done.  

About the 4E node, truth is I cleared 3 times with some damage, but very small amount compared to other nodes. Past that, I cleared so smoothly until the 6.
Why? Because he is a char with limited cape. If he is hyper leveded he is useless because he doesnt activates his reaction anymore.
So bishops with 30k health are a scarecrow but...
Like I said a 4* with low health and unable to stun is going to be dead meat.
And he gains a lot of blue but he wastes a lot too.
Edit: and if you are expecting bishop not firing energy conversion on a inmune apoc... well expect another time.

Sm0keyJ0e

Bishop is not a 4* problem. As @bluewolf stated, I don't even see 4* players using him. He is a 5* problem. When someone (not me) who has spent literally 10's of thousands of dollars on this game chooses to run Bishop ever PVP over any of their dozen-plus 550's, there's a problem with the game. Those people may be rich and like to chase everything, but other people like me (and I know of MANY others like me) wonder... "Why spend at all? I already have the meta character in the game at level 370."

DAZ0273

Some characters could use super soldier serum

Bishop is and always has been a 5* problem.  5* players are, in the wild, a minority but also potentially a high spending category. Seems in this instance they do not spend enough.

A_Wise_Man

Some characters could use a dusting of nerf powder

krakenoon said:

Sm0keyJ0e said:

 "Nerfing is the worst idea. Making characters who can counter him is the best option." This is a misinformed statement. What if Bishop generated 8 blue each time? 14 blue? What is the right amount? You think the devs nailed it at 5 blue every time someone with a 5* makes a match 3?

I think 5 per proc is a fair amount, what would I spend 5 blue AP on when even cheap powers are 6-7?. Also I see nothing wrong with allowing players who haven’t broken into 5* play to force any 5* rosters that want their points to be more strategic in their approach.

I would note that the snippet above is basically straw man. I agree nerfing is a bad option. If you’re in 5* land, you’ve had your chance to play with Bishop. If he gets nerfed, well I would point to to the same Gambit threads after his nerf. Really, in what world do you see Bishop being of any use (10 AP for a stun is ridiculous) if he is nerfed? He is a scarecrow, using him on your own team all the time requires health packs spent or some additional mechanic, this is his balance.

I do get tired of seeing him in the last rounds of PvP since my G4mora is poorly covered and Worthy is a worse option than spending 10 iso IMO. If you’ve been active in the forums, you are familiar with dev response. You know they won’t get it right on the first try and do you honestly expect them to pump a lot of hours into balancing this one character when it’s clear they are more interested in counters and shifting the meta around?

 I know you hate Bishop, it’s obvious. I myself cursed him a number of times in Simulator. His role is to allow players who are not in 5* land to hold onto points in PvP, maybe an occasional use in PvE. Still, I see tons of response from 5* players that it just takes the right approach, which is throwing a non 5 into the mix. Sucks, I know, but it also sucks that any vet/whale can knock those of us not yet in 5* land from T20 to T100 or lower in the last half hour of an event.

Ok.  I'm not sure where to start, so I'll just start. 

Why shouldn't a 5 star player be able to knock a 4 star player down in pvp?  If you see a 3 star player for good points do you skip them?  I suspect you don't.  Anyway, bishop paired with a 4 star is much more easily beaten.  

Since you aren't in the 5 star tier yet, your impression of bishop may be a little off.  What good is 5AP?  Well, maybe not that great.  But let's say instead of a match 3 you cascade into 3 match 3s.  Now he's got 15 blue AP and you're stunned for 4 turns.  Match 3 again and a second player is stunned for 4 turns. Oh and to top it off he's hitting you for double damage for the damage you deal him.  Repeat every time your 5 stars are unstunned.  This works with any 5 star and he is paired with literally everyone.  

He's broken with any 5 star but there are some who are better than others, especially on defense. Let's take okoye for example.  Match 3 and he gets his blue but also hits you back for 6500 damage for the 2k damage you dealt him, and that's a level 450 okoye.  Dr strange?  Well, add a 7k per turn damage to the stun plus drain your AP.  Beta Ray Bill?  Match 3 and bishop makes 5 blue AP.  Then he eats 2 protect tiles and gets 3 more AP.  BRB hits you for 13000 damage for 6 blue AP.  Match 3 again...bishop makes 5 more blue AP to get back up to 7, and BRB makes more protect tiles.  Take 13k damage again, or maybe the AI saves up to stun you for 4 turns, who knows?!? 

To put it into better perspective, let's say they release a new 3 star.  Every time you make any kind of match against this 3 star, they hit you back for 1k damage and stun one of your guys for 4 turns.  Then they release a 4 star that gives them extra AP and tacks on an additional 5k damage per turn every time you match 3.  And let's also say that 4 star is boosted every single week til the game ends so that people can run him, and thats *all* you see in pvp.  Would you still enjoy pvp?  If it helped 3 star guys beat you in pvp would that be ok?

  You may be able to spend 10 iso and skip bishop.  We spend thousands upon thousands of iso skipping him over and over and over again every single pvp.  Running bishop against bishop is no guarantee of a win, either.  

Mr_F

Some characters could use super soldier serum

Plus, Its a 4* problem too. Currently I have 12 4* champions (including Howard and Dino) and 18 with at least 10 covers. For my developing 4* roster any meta 4* team is a skip. For three reasons.

1. I do not want to frustrate myself and swear.

2. I do not think I can beat them.

3. Even if I beat them, it will drain my health packs.

Bishop is not an exception to that. Every of the 4* meta characters are annoying. Some more often than the other, some only in specific combo. But ya know, they are strong in specific combos or beacuse of x. Rocket and Groot is not stong. But he pumps up a Marvel/Worthy combo. Or pumps up Juggernaut'a passive. Is Mr. F strong? Nope. But he shines with Cardusa. Ect.

Bishop is exception to that. He is annoying in every team, in any combo. Eventually he will punish your team. You want prove? Last Simulator event 1st day 4* node. I couldn't beat him with any of my teams (not to mention that I had to use Maria Hill). So I healed Karnak and used him. Repetad 6 times. After that 5* node came with Worthy/HE combo. I used 10 health packs on those 2 nodes. I believe 7 or 8 on the Bishop node.

To be honest, I enjoy the current meta as we have a lot of meta teams, more than when I started being serious about PVP. And at 2,5x more characters to contruct teams that are able to beat them. But Bishop is only 4* I would like to be changed. Not deleted, not nerfed. Changed. Let him do his stuff. But less. A simple  fact that he could generate only 5AP per round or something that would make him to procs less often (for example only against powers or when teammate loses in total x portion of the max health).

bluewolf

Some characters could use a dusting of nerf powder

It has been said that Bishop proc’ing more than once per turn wasn’t intended (aka from cascades, he should only gain 5 AP).

We’ve pointed this out SO MANY TIMES.

They don’t care.

Or, they can’t fix it.  Or it’s too hard and they don’t have the personnel. Or something. 

HoundofShadow

Some characters could use super soldier serum

That's something new. Who said that?

I'm surprised Bishop is a problem for 4* players unless you use some specific characters that trigger him like Juggernaut, R4G etc.