Feedback Wanted: Character Balance

Bad

Balance is fine right now

That is the problem for not reading well. Hound of shadow didnt reply to any person specifically. Nor I did too.

BriMan2222

Some characters could use a dusting of nerf powder

HoundofShadow said:

There are already a number of working suggestions on how to counter those teams. Regardless of what the counter is, some will find any excuse just to dismiss those counters. They are simply not interested in counters and simply only want to see Bishop get nerfed so that they can Thorkoye or Gritty away while watching Netflix. 

I guess if you don't actually have a real argument you can build a straw man out of baseless assumptions and then burn it down.  It's not effective and you won't change any one's mind, but you can do it I guess.
It's never worked for you before, but I'm sure if you keep it up it will because doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result is totally not insanity.

BRB is my highest lvl 5 star and I have bishop ready to be champed and over 1million iso atm.  I could become part of the problem right now if I so choose.  My problem with bishop isn't that I "can't watch netflix while I fight him".  My problem is that he is overly strong.  One character should not do the laundry list of things he can do.  He's a whole team in one character.

I can beat him just fine by switching to my 4 stars, or I could as i said champ bish and fight fire with fire.  I just find fighting him tedious and boring, and I don't imagine using him would be much more fun either.  My purpose in playing this game is fun.  I have fun using BRB and thor or prof X and 5* DD.   I don't want to have to drop down to using 4 stars (would you want to have to drop back down to 2 star land after reaching 3* or 3* from 4*?)  and I don't want to champ bish and just become part of the problem either.

Bad

Balance is fine right now

OJSP said:

Bad said:

That is the problem for not reading well. Hound of shadow didnt reply to any person specifically. Nor I did too.

Yeah. He said before that if his post stuck a nerve, then it would be aimed at us.

He's replying to the post above it. Otherwise, he's trolling.

https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/comment/914339/#Comment_914339

I wasn't replying to you either, why did you have to say anything? My reading is quite good thank you very much. No need to insult me.

I agreed. Your reading is quite good but reading at other post on other time and place and adding to other replies forward.
And I said something because after supporting his comment, the  same thing you say indirectly applies to me, trolling stuff included.
Sorry if I went accidentally into old grudges holded.
I think we are starting to get nervious thinking what we say and vote could change the game on a future.
Altough this its clearly entertaining.

DAZ0273

Some characters could use super soldier serum

Not wishing to stir the pot (but no doubt doing so anyway), I think the choice of emoji from Mr. Hound lays bare his intentions with his post.

At least there haven't been any fun with flags this time (don't worry, I already see the set-up for myself with this one, walking right into it...)

HoundofShadow

Some characters could use super soldier serum

At the end of the day, it boils down to how you think what the "right" counters MPQ should be establishing or promoting. On one hand, it's ridiculous to bring 2 5* to counter one 4*. On the other hand, there are also players who don't want to form teams of lower tier character or a combination of lower tier and high tier characters to counter another team. I think that if a counter team works well, it's a counter. It doesn't matter what tiers the counter teams are made up of. I have used a combination of 2* to 5* teams to counter meta teams. 

At this point of time, almost everything have been said about the pros and cons of nerfing Bishop. If the dev choose to nerf Bishop, everyone else has to accept it. Likewise for the other sides, they have to accept the decision. 

DAZ0273

Some characters could use super soldier serum

HoundofShadow said:

At the end of the day, it boils down to how you think what the "right" counters MPQ should be establishing or promoting. On one hand, it's ridiculous to bring 2 5* to counter one 4*. On the other hand, there are also players who don't want to form teams of lower tier character or a combination of lower tier and high tier characters to counter another team. I think that if a counter team works well, it's a counter. It doesn't matter what tiers the counter teams are made up of. I have used a combination of 2* to 5* teams to counter meta teams. 

At this point of time, almost everything have been said about the pros and cons of nerfing Bishop. If the dev choose to nerf Bishop, everyone else has to accept it. Likewise for the other sides, they have to accept the decision. 

So you could have said the above, which is a reasonable enough opinion and no doubt has a level of some truth to some players but obviously not all, all along but just fancied a good ol' fashioned troll, eh?

fight4thedream

Some characters could use super soldier serum

Mod note: Just a friendly reminder to keep the conversation on topic and to be civil with each other. Thank you. 

DAZ0273

Some characters could use super soldier serum

Hi @fight4thedream,

Totally taken on board as I have been involved with referring to a post in this thread and criticising the intent of it but can you also please clarify that posts which appear to be designed with no intention other than to invoke negative response and contain blanket insults are frowned upon and form a breach of the rules? There are some message boards that would also call this "trolling". I was once told by Brigby that if a criticism of another poster/user was intended then that user should be tagged or quoted directly so they could respond or defend themselves, obviously in a manner that was reasonable and fair. I in fact received a warning for not following this protocal once and have ever since tried to abide by it. I honestly believe that this, if it is still true in terms of expected interactions on the board, has been breached in this thread by another user - it doesn't really need me to go into details about the post in question, nor am I seeking any sort of sanction or reprimand.

I think clarification on this might go a long way in further, almost certain to happen, debates/criticisms and questions over motives featured in this thread going forward.

Sorry to call you out as such (I think you are an excellent moderator and as as an ex moderator of a high visibility message board myself I understand how hard it is) but I think drawing a line under this issue is long past due.

Thanks in advance for any insights you can give and yes, although the thread is probably past a point where much more can be said it is much better further posts are about character rebalances than player squabbles.

zipo24

Some characters could use a dusting of nerf powder

Nerf Bishop, Cap Whorty & Brb

HoundofShadow

Some characters could use super soldier serum

I have been reading this thread and other nerf Bishop/CapWorth threads and it's a fact that when working counters are proposed, they will be dismissed with whatever reasons/excuses that could be thought of.

How do we know whether those counters are actually working? Because other players have posted their experiences using those counters successfully. 

Evidences are readily available in either this thread and/or in other past anti-Bishop/CapWorthy threads regarding others dismissing those counters proposed by other players.

Tony_Foot

Balance is fine right now

Nerf everyone that isn’t thor and okoye so I can steam roller through it all and then complain I’m bored and the game has no variety. Ok Bishop and Worthy I can see why people hate them even if I don’t want a nerf, but some of the others are just minor irritants.

Bad

Balance is fine right now

Right now 60% of pvp teams are thorokoye and 40% gritty, bishop or worthy. 
Personally I like to fight them for to add some variation. Or some excitement and gamble if you consider so.
Nerf bishop and worthy and there will be only thorokoye and gritty teams. The same battle over and over.
No much strategy nor smart play there. Making pay to win the only strategy for sure.

tiomono

Some characters could use a dusting of nerf powder

Bad said:

Right now 60% of pvp teams are thorokoye and 40% gritty, bishop or worthy. 
Personally I like to fight them for to add some variation. Or some excitement and gamble if you consider so.
Nerf bishop and worthy and there will be only thorokoye and gritty teams. The same battle over and over.
No much strategy nor smart play there. Making pay to win the only strategy for sure.

So we are getting around to 140 characters between the 4* and 5* tiers. And you say 100% of teams consist of 3 different 5*'s and 3 different 4*'s and you like it because it gives variety and excitement. Ok.....

Steve111

Some characters could use super soldier serum

More 5* should be immune to stun, they are 5* after all. Wasp could shrink into a sub atomic particle as a passive when an attempt to stun her is made. Or Banner/Hulk could get very angry coming back after a stun. Some anti Bishop passives are due? 

Taganov

Some characters could use super soldier serum

Steve111 said:

More 5* should be immune to stun, they are 5* after all. Wasp could shrink into a sub atomic particle as a passive when an attempt to stun her is made. Or Banner/Hulk could get very angry coming back after a stun. Some anti Bishop passives are due? 

More suggestions like this please. Phoenix should be immune to stun, period. Angel should go airborne. If he has an aerial superiority out, he instead sends the stunning character airborne. Rescue could spam protects and heals every turn an ally is stunned. Widow's passive stun triggers for every turn an ally is stunned, and all her powers' secondary conditions are considered met. Someone else mentioned Emma Frost having the ability to muddle passives.

There are so many interesting things that could be done with underused characters, consistent with canon even, that make more sense than nerfing.

Sm0keyJ0e

Gotta be careful tuning everyone up to counter stuns. For the most part, stunning is an interesting and useful mechanic, and something you have to plan around on defense. It's a great feature in the game, particularly in cl10 nowadays. I'd hate to see every stunner neutered because one jerk face is completely broken and they refuse to acknowledge or address that one toon.

Edit: also, careful what you wish for. All these toons you want to see have increased responses to stuns are likely to be featured in the challenge nodes or 5* essentials in cl10. 

tiomono

Some characters could use a dusting of nerf powder

And we are getting back to the idea that all that makes bishop strong is stun. It's not the 5 ap gain on a 5* character basic match while dealing back 2 times the power. Or destroying 6 ap in your strongest color. Or turning protects into more blue.

His more recent strong combos are not even using his stun. They are using the through the roof ap gen to fuel damage powers.

Taganov

Some characters could use super soldier serum

I don't think anyone is saying Bishop's strength is merely stun; surprise surprise, his YELLOW is seeing use nowadays. That notwithstanding, if stun weren't in his kit, none of this 24 page thread would exist. He'd just be a blue battery.

I can appreciate Smokeyjoe's caution about nerfing an entire class of characters, but mainly because D3 doesn't rebalance well. AoE powers were not nerfed with the introduction of Quake or Nightcrawler, stun didn't become less effective because of SilverSurfer and tile spammers certainly have not suffered despite SMBB/Kitty/Emma/Kraven/Mr. F/Medusa. Cultivating a small niche of characters that can respond to stun is a far better alternative to neutering 2 of the most useful characters in the game, especially with CL10 in mind.

tiomono

Some characters could use a dusting of nerf powder

Taganov said:

I don't think anyone is saying Bishop's strength is merely stun; surprise surprise, his YELLOW is seeing use nowadays. That notwithstanding, if stun weren't in his kit, none of this 24 page thread would exist. He'd just be a blue battery.

I can appreciate Smokeyjoe's caution about nerfing an entire class of characters, but mainly because D3 doesn't rebalance well. AoE powers were not nerfed with the introduction of Quake or Nightcrawler, stun didn't become less effective because of SilverSurfer and tile spammers certainly have not suffered despite SMBB/Kitty/Emma/Kraven/Mr. F/Medusa. Cultivating a small niche of characters that can respond to stun is a far better alternative to neutering 2 of the most useful characters in the game, especially with CL10 in mind.

To me his stun is just icing on his op cake. Take away his stun and kitty gamora bishop is still an op monster. So is bishop with BRB. Both of which completely ignore bishops stun. But I have beaten that poor horse beyond death.

The rockett

Some characters could use super soldier serum

tiomono said:

Taganov said:

I don't think anyone is saying Bishop's strength is merely stun; surprise surprise, his YELLOW is seeing use nowadays. That notwithstanding, if stun weren't in his kit, none of this 24 page thread would exist. He'd just be a blue battery.

I can appreciate Smokeyjoe's caution about nerfing an entire class of characters, but mainly because D3 doesn't rebalance well. AoE powers were not nerfed with the introduction of Quake or Nightcrawler, stun didn't become less effective because of SilverSurfer and tile spammers certainly have not suffered despite SMBB/Kitty/Emma/Kraven/Mr. F/Medusa. Cultivating a small niche of characters that can respond to stun is a far better alternative to neutering 2 of the most useful characters in the game, especially with CL10 in mind.

To me his stun is just icing on his op cake. Take away his stun and kitty gamora bishop is still an op monster. So is bishop with BRB. Both of which completely ignore bishops stun. But I have beaten that poor horse beyond death.

The horse is decaying like Bishop should be on the shelf.  Just like a Gambit, OML, XFW all are.   Due to the fact of inaction by this Dev team, we all have to suffer through this Bishop OP world that we live in.  

It is also sad that the person that posted this question is not even answering or even updating anything on this forum.  So were they just gonna post this and walk away?