Feedback Wanted: Character Balance

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  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,528 Chairperson of the Boards
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    HoundofShadow said:
    At the end of the day, it boils down to how you think what the "right" counters MPQ should be establishing or promoting. On one hand, it's ridiculous to bring 2 5* to counter one 4*. On the other hand, there are also players who don't want to form teams of lower tier character or a combination of lower tier and high tier characters to counter another team. I think that if a counter team works well, it's a counter. It doesn't matter what tiers the counter teams are made up of. I have used a combination of 2* to 5* teams to counter meta teams. 

    At this point of time, almost everything have been said about the pros and cons of nerfing Bishop. If the dev choose to nerf Bishop, everyone else has to accept it. Likewise for the other sides, they have to accept the decision. 


    So you could have said the above, which is a reasonable enough opinion and no doubt has a level of some truth to some players but obviously not all, all along but just fancied a good ol' fashioned troll, eh?
  • fight4thedream
    fight4thedream GLOBAL_MODERATORS Posts: 1,992 Chairperson of the Boards
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    Mod note: Just a friendly reminder to keep the conversation on topic and to be civil with each other. Thank you. 
  • zipo24
    zipo24 Posts: 3 Just Dropped In
    Some characters could use a dusting of nerf powder
    Nerf Bishop, Cap Whorty & Brb
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited February 2020
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    I have been reading this thread and other nerf Bishop/CapWorth threads and it's a fact that when working counters are proposed, they will be dismissed with whatever reasons/excuses that could be thought of.

    How do we know whether those counters are actually working? Because other players have posted their experiences using those counters successfully. 

    Evidences are readily available in either this thread and/or in other past anti-Bishop/CapWorthy threads regarding others dismissing those counters proposed by other players.
  • Bad
    Bad Posts: 3,146 Chairperson of the Boards
    Balance is fine right now
    Right now 60% of pvp teams are thorokoye and 40% gritty, bishop or worthy. 
    Personally I like to fight them for to add some variation. Or some excitement and gamble if you consider so.
    Nerf bishop and worthy and there will be only thorokoye and gritty teams. The same battle over and over.
    No much strategy nor smart play there. Making pay to win the only strategy for sure.
  • tiomono
    tiomono Posts: 1,654 Chairperson of the Boards
    Some characters could use a dusting of nerf powder
    Bad said:
    Right now 60% of pvp teams are thorokoye and 40% gritty, bishop or worthy. 
    Personally I like to fight them for to add some variation. Or some excitement and gamble if you consider so.
    Nerf bishop and worthy and there will be only thorokoye and gritty teams. The same battle over and over.
    No much strategy nor smart play there. Making pay to win the only strategy for sure.
    So we are getting around to 140 characters between the 4* and 5* tiers. And you say 100% of teams consist of 3 different 5*'s and 3 different 4*'s and you like it because it gives variety and excitement. Ok.....
  • Taganov
    Taganov Posts: 279 Mover and Shaker
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    Steve111 said:
    More 5* should be immune to stun, they are 5* after all. Wasp could shrink into a sub atomic particle as a passive when an attempt to stun her is made. Or Banner/Hulk could get very angry coming back after a stun. Some anti Bishop passives are due? 
    More suggestions like this please. Phoenix should be immune to stun, period. Angel should go airborne. If he has an aerial superiority out, he instead sends the stunning character airborne. Rescue could spam protects and heals every turn an ally is stunned. Widow's passive stun triggers for every turn an ally is stunned, and all her powers' secondary conditions are considered met. Someone else mentioned Emma Frost having the ability to muddle passives.

    There are so many interesting things that could be done with underused characters, consistent with canon even, that make more sense than nerfing.
  • tiomono
    tiomono Posts: 1,654 Chairperson of the Boards
    Some characters could use a dusting of nerf powder
    And we are getting back to the idea that all that makes bishop strong is stun. It's not the 5 ap gain on a 5* character basic match while dealing back 2 times the power. Or destroying 6 ap in your strongest color. Or turning protects into more blue.

    His more recent strong combos are not even using his stun. They are using the through the roof ap gen to fuel damage powers.
  • Taganov
    Taganov Posts: 279 Mover and Shaker
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    I don't think anyone is saying Bishop's strength is merely stun; surprise surprise, his YELLOW is seeing use nowadays. That notwithstanding, if stun weren't in his kit, none of this 24 page thread would exist. He'd just be a blue battery.

    I can appreciate Smokeyjoe's caution about nerfing an entire class of characters, but mainly because D3 doesn't rebalance well. AoE powers were not nerfed with the introduction of Quake or Nightcrawler, stun didn't become less effective because of SilverSurfer and tile spammers certainly have not suffered despite SMBB/Kitty/Emma/Kraven/Mr. F/Medusa. Cultivating a small niche of characters that can respond to stun is a far better alternative to neutering 2 of the most useful characters in the game, especially with CL10 in mind.
  • tiomono
    tiomono Posts: 1,654 Chairperson of the Boards
    Some characters could use a dusting of nerf powder
    Taganov said:
    I don't think anyone is saying Bishop's strength is merely stun; surprise surprise, his YELLOW is seeing use nowadays. That notwithstanding, if stun weren't in his kit, none of this 24 page thread would exist. He'd just be a blue battery.

    I can appreciate Smokeyjoe's caution about nerfing an entire class of characters, but mainly because D3 doesn't rebalance well. AoE powers were not nerfed with the introduction of Quake or Nightcrawler, stun didn't become less effective because of SilverSurfer and tile spammers certainly have not suffered despite SMBB/Kitty/Emma/Kraven/Mr. F/Medusa. Cultivating a small niche of characters that can respond to stun is a far better alternative to neutering 2 of the most useful characters in the game, especially with CL10 in mind.
    To me his stun is just icing on his op cake. Take away his stun and kitty gamora bishop is still an op monster. So is bishop with BRB. Both of which completely ignore bishops stun. But I have beaten that poor horse beyond death.
  • The rockett
    The rockett Posts: 2,016 Chairperson of the Boards
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    tiomono said:
    Taganov said:
    I don't think anyone is saying Bishop's strength is merely stun; surprise surprise, his YELLOW is seeing use nowadays. That notwithstanding, if stun weren't in his kit, none of this 24 page thread would exist. He'd just be a blue battery.

    I can appreciate Smokeyjoe's caution about nerfing an entire class of characters, but mainly because D3 doesn't rebalance well. AoE powers were not nerfed with the introduction of Quake or Nightcrawler, stun didn't become less effective because of SilverSurfer and tile spammers certainly have not suffered despite SMBB/Kitty/Emma/Kraven/Mr. F/Medusa. Cultivating a small niche of characters that can respond to stun is a far better alternative to neutering 2 of the most useful characters in the game, especially with CL10 in mind.
    To me his stun is just icing on his op cake. Take away his stun and kitty gamora bishop is still an op monster. So is bishop with BRB. Both of which completely ignore bishops stun. But I have beaten that poor horse beyond death.
    The horse is decaying like Bishop should be on the shelf.  Just like a Gambit, OML, XFW all are.   Due to the fact of inaction by this Dev team, we all have to suffer through this Bishop OP world that we live in.  

    It is also sad that the person that posted this question is not even answering or even updating anything on this forum.  So were they just gonna post this and walk away?  
  • SnowcaTT
    SnowcaTT Posts: 3,487 Chairperson of the Boards
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    Bad said:
    Right now 60% of pvp teams are thorokoye and 40% gritty, bishop or worthy. 
    Personally I like to fight them for to add some variation. Or some excitement and gamble if you consider so.
    Nerf bishop and worthy and there will be only thorokoye and gritty teams. The same battle over and over.
    No much strategy nor smart play there. Making pay to win the only strategy for sure.

    Tons of people managed to get high level characters of the latest characters recently, so the "variation" is really different than a couple months ago!

    In the sense that the new 5*'s really made everything else obsolete. Sure there are BetaBishops floating everywhere and as someone with an early 370, I'm all in on the Nerf Bishop bandwagon - but a Bishop nerf isn't making Beta go anywhere.

    I'd say 60% of non-bishop PVP teams are now BRB/Kitty BRB/PX PX/Carnage PX/Ice...which goes to the OP point. Thorkoye and Gritty are obsolete, just as they made teams obsolete that came before them. Either newer characters need a power boost to make them worth using (which many here seem to prefer on current poll results) or some less desirable option needs to happen (nerfs or leaving as-is).
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,522 Chairperson of the Boards
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    Looks like we are starting to see some adjustments at least - the release note about PunMax getting a fix is an interesting place to start. I wonder if he'll launch with a System Reboot the way we used to see on 4* rebalance events?
  • bluewolf
    bluewolf Posts: 5,947 Chairperson of the Boards
    Some characters could use a dusting of nerf powder
    ThaRoadWarrior said:
    Looks like we are starting to see some adjustments at least - the release note about PunMax getting a fix is an interesting place to start. I wonder if he'll launch with a System Reboot the way we used to see on 4* rebalance events?
    The PunMax thing seems much more like a fix to unintended implementation vs a rebalance.

    The Army of One power makes some very small strike tiles.  Ex:  My L343 creates 2 strike tiles of strength 60 (now) and then does 9000 dmg plus 1571 dmg for every strike tile on the board.  This is with 5 covers on black.

    Before the fix, the 3 cover strike tile strength matched the 1 cover strength which was a 30 strength strike tile.  So the strengths in order of 1/2/3/4/5 were 30/60/30/60/60.  Which is kind of weird, maybe it was intended design back when they used to do stuff like that.  Anyway now it's 30/60/60/60/60.

    I would not be terribly surprised if the Friday 4-Start Bundle is for PunMax, as I doubt they will bother with System Reboot now that shards and more covers come your way just from playing.
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,522 Chairperson of the Boards
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    The size of those strikes seems laughable in the face of modern releases. My lvl 284 is doing 19/38
  • bluewolf
    bluewolf Posts: 5,947 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited March 2020
    Some characters could use a dusting of nerf powder
    OJSP said:
    bluewolf said:
    So the strengths in order of 1/2/3/4/5 were 30/60/30/60/60.  Which is kind of weird, maybe it was intended design back when they used to do stuff like that.  Anyway now it's 30/60/60/60/60.
    At 3 covers it used to make 2 strike tiles with the strength value of 1 cover. So, the total value of the strike tiles equaled the value at 2 covers, but less likely to be matched away in 1 turn. So, in your example, the total strengths of the strike tiles were 30/60/60/120/120. Now they are 30/60/120/120/120
    Ah, good point.  So it is the smallest of buffs.  It literally would make no difference to anyone when considering to run him or not.  The point of the strike tiles obviously is to enhance the dmg (the extra packets per strike tile) hence why they are so small.

    This still seems much more like a "hey this is weird/bugged" fix vs a "we should rebalance Pun Max so people like him more" change.

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