R192: Champion Rewards Updates

captainheath

With all the negativity, I'll chime in.

In my opinion, this is a big step forward and a very little step backward.  The game needed something like this for a while.  The recent tweaks in this update and with shards solve some fairly large problems without significantly changing the economy of the game.  Kudos to the devs.

Pantera236

Maybe someone already mentioned this but why in the tiny kittie is Shuri not getting a 3* feeder? 

AdamMagus

Very nice update

jtsings

   It's always easy to find negative in anything but again, which I find myself doing lately,  I'm going to have to try to look at the general new to near new players and it seems like this system gives a good framework for progressing in the game.  A new player is not concerned about lost CP, ISO, or HP given as a 4 * champ reward, they're going to be excited to have a framework for getting more 4* covers of a useful 4* or their favorite Marvel character.  Now if someone wants to speed up their clears they can set R4G as their Targeted hero and R3G as their 3* TH.  I personally am going to find more benefit from this new system because it will help me champ some of the older 5*s. 

   I'm not belittling other people's problems with this new system but this would personally give me, if I  were a newish player, more motivation to continue playing, since I now have more paths to get to my goal.  These changes of lately seem to be aimed toward getting newer players engaged in the game with, at least so far, a little/lot of inconveniences to the veteran players.  I  personally am fine with the new changes and look forward to seeing new ways to earn shards to further progress my roster. 

   So a big thanks, from me personally, for giving us feeders to almost all 5*s, way faster than I thought they would be released.  And this new system makes me feel like champing even the least useful 4*s have paid off for me in the long run.

Warbringa

I apologize if someone has already done this but since I only farm 2* and 3*, here is my analysis of what we give up and gain (from a roster farming perspective).

2* farms - you give up 500 iso, 60HP and 1 Heroic token   FOR  1 Mighty token.  It isn't a big loss but then again for someone who farms, 3* color cover isn't really an issue so overall minorl 2* farming resource loss that I am not too concerned about, but then again 2* farms do turn over much quicker than a 3* farm so its impact may be more than first appearance.

3* farms - Primary Only characters - you give up 460 HP & 14 CP FOR 2 Mighty tokens and color cover distribution choice on 4* covers. Once again as a 3* farmer, cover color on champ rewards isn't a value to me (but it is to newer players I understand this).  The two mighty token are probably worth 300 HP or so if a heroic token is 100 HP (based on once a day deal in store).  So you are roughly giving up 200 or so HP and 14 CP in equivalence of value.  Once again a minor loss in value.

Primary/Secondary characters - same as above plus 10,000 iso.  In exchange you gain enough shards FOR 1 1/3 covers for the secondary character.  In my opinion not a bad trade off since HfH costs 3600 for a 4* cover and yes I know additional resources such as CP/Iso/tokens.  

Here is the thing though.  Value wise, the loss is minimal.  For non-farmers, there is certainly value in the colorless shard cover, but this bonus is normally not too much for farmers in many situations, except the occasional duplicate building. 

What is being removed though are base resources of the game iso and HP.  Iso loss isn't as big of an issue since it is on roughly just over half of the 3* but I think HP is the stealth loss here that some players will eventually realize.  This move is being made in order to encourage the purchase of HP directly or through other means (VIP, etc).  Keep in mind that shards can be purchased with HP, my educated guess is that more players will be likely to spend HP here than on random token draws as in the past.  Second, the loss of HP while per champed character is minimal, the actual loss is 60 HP per 2* flip and 480 HP per 3* flip (not comparing value here just pure HP loss).  Over time this may have some impact.  I think shards are truly leading to the judicious management of HP going forward since there are now more uses for it and less being distributed in the game.  I don't think this will be an immediate issue but some players may begin to notice their HP not keeping up with their spending of it in this new system.  

Borstock

I don't think it's necessary to justify the loss of resources by suggesting that we aren't losing "much". The fact is that they had the option of adding without taking anything away and chose this instead. It's okay to be frustrated by that decision. And it doesn't mean that those who are frustrated are standing on a ledge of a tall building threatening to throw change at passersby if nothing changes.

I'm happy we got more feeders. I'm unhappy they took stuff away to do it. I think both are fair reactions to this.

bluewolf

One thing that only applies to top players is that, in theory, you'll get more champ levels for 5's from the new setup which might make up some of the rewards lost in lower tiers.

I feel like it's always worth remembering...the game wants revenue to grow while the playerbase stays pretty much  the same....so they do things like this.  Simultaneously present us with another desirable thing to spend HP on (shards) while turning down the spigot a little.

I don't know if these champ rewards will be so impactful as to drive someone to spend precisely....but it might, buying just VIP probably makes up the lost champ rewards in an average month.

crackninja

Borstock said:

I don't think it's necessary to justify the loss of resources by suggesting that we aren't losing "much". The fact is that they had the option of adding without taking anything away and chose this instead. It's okay to be frustrated by that decision. And it doesn't mean that those who are frustrated are standing on a ledge of a tall building threatening to throw change at passersby if nothing changes.

I'm happy we got more feeders. I'm unhappy they took stuff away to do it. I think both are fair reactions to this.

Totally agree, and I'll add to that - they could have just given us all of these feeder updates under the old structure and received a ton of praise.  They did it at the same time as making all these changes to the reward structure itself, it seems likely as a way to mask some of the negative reaction to those changes.
It's like when Tony catches the kid playing pacman or whatever it was..."he thought we wouldn't notice.  But we did."
Not the end of the world, but it was a choice that was made.

PuceMoose

captainheath said:

I think the first one is a cover because you have to roster the character first.  Has anyone tried to roster a character through shards?

I did this yesterday, as I bonused Hood before opening a 50 elite token pack, resulting in the cover needed to bring him to 266, along with enough shards for one more cover. Under the stats and more dialog, you can "roster with shards", and it asks you what color you want to start with for the new character. 

jredd

wymtime said:

Here is what I am seeing.  For 4* rewards players are losing 62 CP to select the cover you want from the feeder.  You are losing 2 latest pulls or 3 classic pulls.

for 3* rewards players are losing 14 CP and 200 HP.  

As someone who counts on earning all the CP I can to try and cover the latest 5* this is a significant nerf.  The reason why is it is not just one character it is all characters across the board.  With 37 4* feeding 5* that is 2294 CP removed from the economy or 92 latest pulls or 115classic pulls.  For 3* it is not as significant but overall that is a lot of opportunities to generate CP to get 5* covers.

this is why shards feel like one step forward and 2 steps back.  I hope we can see this lost CP move back into the game as shards should feel like added progression not sideways and slightly backwards.

i like the update to the feeders and don’t have an issue with standardized shard collection, my concern is it still is feeling like lateral progress not forward progress.

edited math to only list feeders

Unfortunately taking something away whenever they introduce something new happens almost every time with these guys. it's their m.o.

it's what keeps this game from being really good. i don't know if it's done deliberately or if they just don't see it.

Pongie

Updated my google sheets, hope it’s all correct (if not let me know and I’ll correct it)

Warbringa

Borstock said:

I don't think it's necessary to justify the loss of resources by suggesting that we aren't losing "much". The fact is that they had the option of adding without taking anything away and chose this instead. It's okay to be frustrated by that decision. And it doesn't mean that those who are frustrated are standing on a ledge of a tall building threatening to throw change at passersby if nothing changes.

I'm happy we got more feeders. I'm unhappy they took stuff away to do it. I think both are fair reactions to this.

I am not justifying the losses at all. I am simply saying the losses are small on a per character basis, in fact if you read my whole point, the loss of HP is in my opinion something many players may overlook if they are not careful.  Personally, I feel that I am losing out on overall resources with my 2* and 3* farms in this new reward structure, although there are a few trades offs I am ok with such as the iso trade off for more 4* covers in the primary/secondary 3* characters.    

Tony_Foot

Warbringa said:

Borstock said:

I don't think it's necessary to justify the loss of resources by suggesting that we aren't losing "much". The fact is that they had the option of adding without taking anything away and chose this instead. It's okay to be frustrated by that decision. And it doesn't mean that those who are frustrated are standing on a ledge of a tall building threatening to throw change at passersby if nothing changes.

I'm happy we got more feeders. I'm unhappy they took stuff away to do it. I think both are fair reactions to this.

I am not justifying the losses at all. I am simply saying the losses are small on a per character basis, in fact if you read my whole point, the loss of HP is in my opinion something many players may overlook if they are not careful.  Personally, I feel that I am losing out on overall resources with my 2* and 3* farms in this new reward structure, although there are a few trades offs I am ok with such as the iso trade off for more 4* covers in the primary/secondary 3* characters.    

I hadn't considered it was that much HP I'm losing to be honest, right when I will be coming to 2k per slot. As I said before I flip the 3* twice per year. That's over 40,000 HP lost per year. Now I'm not HP poor but for newer players we have been telling them for a long while when you start the 3* farms your HP problems lessen, well that's a significant dent.

So In summary, I've lost the ability to do shield training, I've so far got one a half 4* levels on my groot and doubt I can do what I've been doing previously when I bust hoard, cover the 4*s I have remaining to 13 covers. I've lost valuable CP and LT in the pursuit of my losing battle keeping up on latest. I already have to skip one in every four. Now I've lost a huge chunk of my HP too.

For me this shard and reward update is taking more than it's pound of flesh. I still think we have more to come too with PVE and PVP reward updates.

DAZ0273

Having looked at this a bit more I am disappointed they targeted the resource they are squeezing the most - HP. I'd rather have the HP than a mighty token which more often than not will just be an elite. The loss of CP I could accept but the loss of the games resource that is being stretched further and further is highly cynical in my opinion. Having 3* covers isn't very useful if you don't have the HP for roster slots to farm them.

tiomono

bluewolf said:

One thing that only applies to top players is that, in theory, you'll get more champ levels for 5's from the new setup which might make up some of the rewards lost in lower tiers.

I feel like it's always worth remembering...the game wants revenue to grow while the playerbase stays pretty much  the same....so they do things like this.  Simultaneously present us with another desirable thing to spend HP on (shards) while turning down the spigot a little.

I don't know if these champ rewards will be so impactful as to drive someone to spend precisely....but it might, buying just VIP probably makes up the lost champ rewards in an average month.

I'm in a tiny alliance. We have 2 5* players and 6 4* players. The rest are building 2's and 3's. Before the recent changes very little spending was being done. In the last 2 weeks I have gotten 70 command points from alliance purchases. Which is probably what I would get over a period of 3 months or more previously even during the months around the end of the year when many people spend more.

Projectus2501

To all of you that are saying that the losses are small. This is not true. The losses are BIG. Especially because most of you are concentrating your reasoning in the 2* and 3*. The big loss is obviously in 4* land. I think it is made on purpose because most of the game revenue comes from cp. Reduce this in the "free" economy and players will spend more.

Its always hard to see resources diminish but we need to see the devs perspective. They control the game and they make the decisions. It's their choice and a player can only choose to cope with it or get another hobby. 

As feeders is concerned, this is not a compensation. This is well overdue in the game. It's about time

PS: good communication effort by the devs. I enjoy ice's way of communicating

bluewolf

tiomono said:

bluewolf said:

One thing that only applies to top players is that, in theory, you'll get more champ levels for 5's from the new setup which might make up some of the rewards lost in lower tiers.

I feel like it's always worth remembering...the game wants revenue to grow while the playerbase stays pretty much  the same....so they do things like this.  Simultaneously present us with another desirable thing to spend HP on (shards) while turning down the spigot a little.

I don't know if these champ rewards will be so impactful as to drive someone to spend precisely....but it might, buying just VIP probably makes up the lost champ rewards in an average month.

I'm in a tiny alliance. We have 2 5* players and 6 4* players. The rest are building 2's and 3's. Before the recent changes very little spending was being done. In the last 2 weeks I have gotten 70 command points from alliance purchases. Which is probably what I would get over a period of 3 months or more previously even during the months around the end of the year when many people spend more.

I mean....there is an HP sale going on now, and has been for a week.  Those are pretty uncommon, and I think the last one was in March.  They also had the Kitty shards offer which was dollar for dollar probably the best offer ever in terms of a material direct way to advance your roster, since adding a cover or champ level to a meta 5 is probably the best thing you can hope for.

I suppose your point is that purchases are somehow up but they obviously intentionally are pushing out stuff that appeals to players to goose end of year/quarter sales vs more costume bundles which are basically scoffed at.\

@Projectus2501 I highly doubt that people will spend more as a result of getting less CP as the link is fairly indirect (other than for buy club folks, I guess).  The HP nerf could have more of an impact.

The question players should ask themselves is if the actual game experience is worth more money; getting more covers will be nice but even if I champ 3-4 5's who have been languishing on my roster, I'll still basically be using the same teams and Bishop is still broken.

T_REZ5000

These changes to rewards are probably a good indicator of what we can expect in event progression reward changes.  3* and 4* progression rewards will be broken down into shards across multiple reward tiers thus removing even more resources from the economy.

They will try to convince everyone that “these rewards make up a small fraction of what players accumulate”.  However, when all these reward losses are summed up they add up to a substantial amount.

HoundofShadow

Let's be honest, majority of the players are not doing 2* or 3* farming. Neither are the majority of the players going to max champ majority of their 4*. Also, let's not act as if majority of the players are max champing 40 4* within 6 months or a year or they are farming 3* multiple times a year. They are probably going to take another 1-2 years to get all their 3* dup again.

I've played MPQ for almost 2 in-game years and only about one-third of my 3* have been duped once and majority of my champed 4* are still at level 28X. This is coming from someone getting top 10 in SCL 7 PvEs consistently and top 50 in SCL 9 PvP consistently. It's going to be another 2 in-game years of competitive playing before I might be able to max champ at least a quarter of my 4*. For players who don't play as competitively as me, it's going to take them another 3-4 in-game years to "realise" these "losses".

Here are the changes for 4* rewards:

Level               Added in         Taken out
296            100 5* P.Shards      4cp
298            150 5* P.Shards      4cp
300            250 5* P.Shards      1 5* cover

316            100 5* P.Shards      5cp
318            150 5* P.Shards      5cp
320            250 5* P.Shards       1 5* cover

336            100 5* P.Shards      7cp
338            150 5* P.Shards      7cp
340            250 5* P.Shards       1 5* cover

346            100 5* P.Shards      7cp
348            150 5* P.Shards      7cp
350            250 5* P.Shards       1 5* cover

356            100 5* P.Shards      8cp
358            150 5* P.Shards      8cp
360            250 5* P.Shards       1 5* cover

On the surface, you are looking at a loss of 62CP per 4* character. If you multiply it by 90, it comes up to almost 5600 CP lost. Ask yourself, how long will it take for majority of the players to get more than 90  of their 4* to level 360.

These changes will greatly affect the top 1% or 5% of the playerbase. Overall it's a good change for your average players to fulfill their dreams of champing a few specific characters.

Kolence

RickOShay said:

Command Points are already Shards in a way. 
 
25 CP, when taken as a draw from Latest Legends =
85% chance of a random 4* cover
15% chance of a random 5* cover  

There is a Shards equivalent to this breakdown, but it's always for a known character, not random.

Someone needs to do the comparative math, of what we actually lose in CP and HP values along the life cycle of a 4* character, and the equivalent Shards we are gaining along the same path. 
It seems like we are generally undervaluing the added shards along Champ rewards. 

For example, we are losing 10 CP at a specific Champ level point, but have gained Shards at other points. 

If 25 CP is 85% of a random 4* cover generally, then 10 CP is 40% of that opportunity. 40% of a full 4* Character Shards is 100 Shards. Haven't we gained over 100 Shards to make up for this? Without randomness?

What's the value of the fraction of the 15% LT chance of a 5* cover draw? 
We also earn new shards toward characters of our choice from each LT draw we make. Is this not made up with the added Shards along the Champ rewards structure? Still a ways off maybe, or reasonably fair?

47 3-stars
Lost 14 CP each
Gained 2 MT each
Gained 600 shards (or 3/2 of a 4-star cover) but only 28 3-stars (~60% of them). So, about 360 shards each.
Let's look at 20 3-stars max champed (flipped/farmed) because it's easier to see round numbers
Lost 280 CP - that's 14 pulls from classic legends or 2 5-stars and 12 4-stars. (ALL RANDOM)
Gained 40 MT - that's 6 4-stars and 34 3-stars. (RANDOM)
Gained 7200 shards - that's 18 4-stars for select 28 4-stars. (STILL RANDOM? BUT LESS DILUTED?)

That's what I can see with a quick glance. Haven't had the time or desire to look at HP. Plus I don't really have an idea of how much HP I earn/spend. Still I suspect the loss will be noticeable but not really that much.

For 4-stars, it's probably similar to how 3-stars fared. No time to look at it closer yet. But there's the big plus of added 5-stars directly in champ rewards, which may compensate for all/some of this.