R192: Champion Rewards Updates

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  • AdamMagus
    AdamMagus Posts: 363 Mover and Shaker
    Very nice update
  • jtsings
    jtsings Posts: 278 Mover and Shaker
       It's always easy to find negative in anything but again, which I find myself doing lately,  I'm going to have to try to look at the general new to near new players and it seems like this system gives a good framework for progressing in the game.  A new player is not concerned about lost CP, ISO, or HP given as a 4 * champ reward, they're going to be excited to have a framework for getting more 4* covers of a useful 4* or their favorite Marvel character.  Now if someone wants to speed up their clears they can set R4G as their Targeted hero and R3G as their 3* TH.  I personally am going to find more benefit from this new system because it will help me champ some of the older 5*s. 

       I'm not belittling other people's problems with this new system but this would personally give me, if I  were a newish player, more motivation to continue playing, since I now have more paths to get to my goal.  These changes of lately seem to be aimed toward getting newer players engaged in the game with, at least so far, a little/lot of inconveniences to the veteran players.  I  personally am fine with the new changes and look forward to seeing new ways to earn shards to further progress my roster. 

       So a big thanks, from me personally, for giving us feeders to almost all 5*s, way faster than I thought they would be released.  And this new system makes me feel like champing even the least useful 4*s have paid off for me in the long run.
  • bluewolf
    bluewolf Posts: 6,296 Chairperson of the Boards
    One thing that only applies to top players is that, in theory, you'll get more champ levels for 5's from the new setup which might make up some of the rewards lost in lower tiers.

    I feel like it's always worth remembering...the game wants revenue to grow while the playerbase stays pretty much  the same....so they do things like this.  Simultaneously present us with another desirable thing to spend HP on (shards) while turning down the spigot a little.

    I don't know if these champ rewards will be so impactful as to drive someone to spend precisely....but it might, buying just VIP probably makes up the lost champ rewards in an average month.
  • crackninja
    crackninja Posts: 444 Mover and Shaker
    Borstock said:
    I don't think it's necessary to justify the loss of resources by suggesting that we aren't losing "much". The fact is that they had the option of adding without taking anything away and chose this instead. It's okay to be frustrated by that decision. And it doesn't mean that those who are frustrated are standing on a ledge of a tall building threatening to throw change at passersby if nothing changes.

    I'm happy we got more feeders. I'm unhappy they took stuff away to do it. I think both are fair reactions to this.
    Totally agree, and I'll add to that - they could have just given us all of these feeder updates under the old structure and received a ton of praise.  They did it at the same time as making all these changes to the reward structure itself, it seems likely as a way to mask some of the negative reaction to those changes.
    It's like when Tony catches the kid playing pacman or whatever it was..."he thought we wouldn't notice.  But we did."
    Not the end of the world, but it was a choice that was made.
  • PuceMoose
    PuceMoose Posts: 1,445 Chairperson of the Boards
    captainheath said:
    I think the first one is a cover because you have to roster the character first.  Has anyone tried to roster a character through shards?
    I did this yesterday, as I bonused Hood before opening a 50 elite token pack, resulting in the cover needed to bring him to 266, along with enough shards for one more cover. Under the stats and more dialog, you can "roster with shards", and it asks you what color you want to start with for the new character. 
  • Pongie
    Pongie Posts: 1,412 Chairperson of the Boards
    Updated my google sheets, hope it’s all correct (if not let me know and I’ll correct it)

  • Warbringa
    Warbringa Posts: 1,316 Chairperson of the Boards
    Borstock said:
    I don't think it's necessary to justify the loss of resources by suggesting that we aren't losing "much". The fact is that they had the option of adding without taking anything away and chose this instead. It's okay to be frustrated by that decision. And it doesn't mean that those who are frustrated are standing on a ledge of a tall building threatening to throw change at passersby if nothing changes.

    I'm happy we got more feeders. I'm unhappy they took stuff away to do it. I think both are fair reactions to this.
    I am not justifying the losses at all. I am simply saying the losses are small on a per character basis, in fact if you read my whole point, the loss of HP is in my opinion something many players may overlook if they are not careful.  Personally, I feel that I am losing out on overall resources with my 2* and 3* farms in this new reward structure, although there are a few trades offs I am ok with such as the iso trade off for more 4* covers in the primary/secondary 3* characters.    
  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 11,396 Chairperson of the Boards
    Having looked at this a bit more I am disappointed they targeted the resource they are squeezing the most - HP. I'd rather have the HP than a mighty token which more often than not will just be an elite. The loss of CP I could accept but the loss of the games resource that is being stretched further and further is highly cynical in my opinion. Having 3* covers isn't very useful if you don't have the HP for roster slots to farm them.
  • tiomono
    tiomono Posts: 1,654 Chairperson of the Boards
    bluewolf said:
    One thing that only applies to top players is that, in theory, you'll get more champ levels for 5's from the new setup which might make up some of the rewards lost in lower tiers.

    I feel like it's always worth remembering...the game wants revenue to grow while the playerbase stays pretty much  the same....so they do things like this.  Simultaneously present us with another desirable thing to spend HP on (shards) while turning down the spigot a little.

    I don't know if these champ rewards will be so impactful as to drive someone to spend precisely....but it might, buying just VIP probably makes up the lost champ rewards in an average month.
    I'm in a tiny alliance. We have 2 5* players and 6 4* players. The rest are building 2's and 3's. Before the recent changes very little spending was being done. In the last 2 weeks I have gotten 70 command points from alliance purchases. Which is probably what I would get over a period of 3 months or more previously even during the months around the end of the year when many people spend more.
  • Projectus2501
    Projectus2501 Posts: 218 Tile Toppler
    To all of you that are saying that the losses are small. This is not true. The losses are BIG. Especially because most of you are concentrating your reasoning in the 2* and 3*. The big loss is obviously in 4* land. I think it is made on purpose because most of the game revenue comes from cp. Reduce this in the "free" economy and players will spend more.

    Its always hard to see resources diminish but we need to see the devs perspective. They control the game and they make the decisions. It's their choice and a player can only choose to cope with it or get another hobby. 

    As feeders is concerned, this is not a compensation. This is well overdue in the game. It's about time

    PS: good communication effort by the devs. I enjoy ice's way of communicating :smiley:
  • bluewolf
    bluewolf Posts: 6,296 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited December 2019
    tiomono said:
    bluewolf said:
    One thing that only applies to top players is that, in theory, you'll get more champ levels for 5's from the new setup which might make up some of the rewards lost in lower tiers.

    I feel like it's always worth remembering...the game wants revenue to grow while the playerbase stays pretty much  the same....so they do things like this.  Simultaneously present us with another desirable thing to spend HP on (shards) while turning down the spigot a little.

    I don't know if these champ rewards will be so impactful as to drive someone to spend precisely....but it might, buying just VIP probably makes up the lost champ rewards in an average month.
    I'm in a tiny alliance. We have 2 5* players and 6 4* players. The rest are building 2's and 3's. Before the recent changes very little spending was being done. In the last 2 weeks I have gotten 70 command points from alliance purchases. Which is probably what I would get over a period of 3 months or more previously even during the months around the end of the year when many people spend more.
    I mean....there is an HP sale going on now, and has been for a week.  Those are pretty uncommon, and I think the last one was in March.  They also had the Kitty shards offer which was dollar for dollar probably the best offer ever in terms of a material direct way to advance your roster, since adding a cover or champ level to a meta 5 is probably the best thing you can hope for.

    I suppose your point is that purchases are somehow up but they obviously intentionally are pushing out stuff that appeals to players to goose end of year/quarter sales vs more costume bundles which are basically scoffed at.\

    @Projectus2501 I highly doubt that people will spend more as a result of getting less CP as the link is fairly indirect (other than for buy club folks, I guess).  The HP nerf could have more of an impact.

    The question players should ask themselves is if the actual game experience is worth more money; getting more covers will be nice but even if I champ 3-4 5's who have been languishing on my roster, I'll still basically be using the same teams and Bishop is still broken.
  • T_REZ5000
    T_REZ5000 Posts: 150 Tile Toppler
    edited December 2019
    These changes to rewards are probably a good indicator of what we can expect in event progression reward changes.  3* and 4* progression rewards will be broken down into shards across multiple reward tiers thus removing even more resources from the economy.

    They will try to convince everyone that “these rewards make up a small fraction of what players accumulate”.  However, when all these reward losses are summed up they add up to a substantial amount.
  • Kolence
    Kolence Posts: 969 Critical Contributor
    RickOShay said:
    Command Points are already Shards in a way. 
     
    25 CP, when taken as a draw from Latest Legends =
    85% chance of a random 4* cover
    15% chance of a random 5* cover  

    There is a Shards equivalent to this breakdown, but it's always for a known character, not random.

    Someone needs to do the comparative math, of what we actually lose in CP and HP values along the life cycle of a 4* character, and the equivalent Shards we are gaining along the same path. 
    It seems like we are generally undervaluing the added shards along Champ rewards. 

    For example, we are losing 10 CP at a specific Champ level point, but have gained Shards at other points. 

    If 25 CP is 85% of a random 4* cover generally, then 10 CP is 40% of that opportunity. 40% of a full 4* Character Shards is 100 Shards. Haven't we gained over 100 Shards to make up for this? Without randomness?

    What's the value of the fraction of the 15% LT chance of a 5* cover draw? 
    We also earn new shards toward characters of our choice from each LT draw we make. Is this not made up with the added Shards along the Champ rewards structure? Still a ways off maybe, or reasonably fair?
    47 3-stars
    Lost 14 CP each
    Gained 2 MT each
    Gained 600 shards (or 3/2 of a 4-star cover) but only 28 3-stars (~60% of them). So, about 360 shards each.
    Let's look at 20 3-stars max champed (flipped/farmed) because it's easier to see round numbers :)
    Lost 280 CP - that's 14 pulls from classic legends or 2 5-stars and 12 4-stars. (ALL RANDOM)
    Gained 40 MT - that's 6 4-stars and 34 3-stars. (RANDOM)
    Gained 7200 shards - that's 18 4-stars for select 28 4-stars. (STILL RANDOM? BUT LESS DILUTED?)

    That's what I can see with a quick glance. Haven't had the time or desire to look at HP. Plus I don't really have an idea of how much HP I earn/spend. Still I suspect the loss will be noticeable but not really that much.

    For 4-stars, it's probably similar to how 3-stars fared. No time to look at it closer yet. But there's the big plus of added 5-stars directly in champ rewards, which may compensate for all/some of this. 
  • bluewolf
    bluewolf Posts: 6,296 Chairperson of the Boards
    @HoundofShadow

    The point on max champ 4's is probably even longer than you think.

    I have been a typically T20 PVE, T10 PVP player for a couple years-ish now.  I have a grand total of 6 max champ 4's.  I mean it's not great to lose some CP or whatever along the way but dilution ensures that it will be a very, very, very long time to max champ anyone who you don't target.  It takes a little over 100 Legendary pulls to get a cover - right now - for each 4.  If you wanted 100 covers for each (let's say you gathered the first 13 from other places or whatever) that would be 10,000 pulls.  My lifetime pull count is around....3800 or so after 4 years.

    Even whales are probably years away from, say, a max champed Spidey 2099.

    All this worrying about high end stuff ignores the fact that dilution is still a big problem.....at best I think the champ rewards are a wash by taking some champ reward CP out but adding in 1.5 4's for 28 of the 3's.
  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 11,396 Chairperson of the Boards
    HoundofShadow said:
    Let's be honest, majority of the players are not doing 2* or 3* farming. Neither are the majority of the players going to max champ majority of their 4*. Also, let's not act as if majority of the players are max champing 40 4* within 6 months or a year or they are farming 3* multiple times a year. They are probably going to take another 1-2 years to get all their 3* dup again.

    I've played MPQ for almost 2 in-game years and only about one-third of my 3* have been duped once and majority of my champed 4* are still at level 28X. This is coming from someone getting top 10 in SCL 7 PvEs consistently and top 50 in SCL 9 PvP consistently. It's going to be another 2 in-game years of competitive playing before I might be able to max champ at least a quarter of my 4*. For players who don't play as competitively as me, it's going to take them another 3-4 in-game years to "realise" these "losses".

    Here are the changes for 4* rewards:

    Level               Added in         Taken out
    296            100 5* P.Shards      4cp
    298            150 5* P.Shards      4cp
    300            250 5* P.Shards      1 5* cover

    316            100 5* P.Shards      5cp
    318            150 5* P.Shards      5cp
    320            250 5* P.Shards       1 5* cover

    336            100 5* P.Shards      7cp
    338            150 5* P.Shards      7cp
    340            250 5* P.Shards       1 5* cover

    346            100 5* P.Shards      7cp
    348            150 5* P.Shards      7cp
    350            250 5* P.Shards       1 5* cover

    356            100 5* P.Shards      8cp
    358            150 5* P.Shards      8cp
    360            250 5* P.Shards       1 5* cover

    On the surface, you are looking at a loss of 62CP per 4* character. If you multiply it by 90, it comes up to almost 5600 CP lost. Ask yourself, how long will it take for majority of the players to get more than 90  of their 4* to level 360.

    These changes will greatly affect the top 1% or 5% of the playerbase. Overall it's a good change for your average players to fulfill their dreams of champing a few specific characters.


    Like I said earlier, the CP will not hurt too much but the HP will. I am at the point where I will bar 2 characters have max Champed all 3's, some flipped, some have dupes but basically with all the new drains on HP due to changes this year I am back to being severely HP crunched. 3* shards are useless to me unless I can roster the character but I now have other shard store HP pressure, new 5* HP pressure and Christmas is coming with normally decent HP stores. So for the guys sitting on 20-30k HP hoards happy days but this is bad news for players like me I think.
  • Basepuzzler
    Basepuzzler Posts: 180 Tile Toppler
    They balanced the rewards table by taking away rewards from the top end players that the masses wouldn’t reach often and increasing (or colorlessing) rewards that the masses would more easily reach.  

    Except...why is that necessary?  Instead of removing rewards just put them at the end of the reward chain.  Shift the 4* cp to the last levels between 360 and 370.  That way the whales are made whole, and the masses who are benefitting from colorless covers won’t ever see those rewards earned back without spending.


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