Patch Notes 5/21 Discussion (Inc Spider-Man)

Spoit

Phantron wrote:

Toxicadam wrote:

People forget that the reason Rags was 'broken' was because he allowed people to win matches in 30 seconds (most of that time was just watching animations). He was a self-feeding, low AP, cascade machine with 10,000+ HPs (with buff). You didn't even need to use AP boosts.

Which was especially broken in lightning rounds (the 'elite' tournaments of that time) because of the mega-buff (200%) that villains got. So, this gave anyone lucky enough to pull his cards a huge advantage in the most reward-rich tournaments.

Outside of lightning rounds (and that mega-buff), Rags wasn't that bad or game-breaking.


'Old' Spidey doesn't have that problem. If anything he slowed the game down for people and invited more counter-attacks (due to his low HP and bad AI).

Spiderman is nerfed because his existence goes against the business model of the game (health pack requires you to actually die), and that you can't make a meaningful PvE encounter when the other side never gets a turn.

In terms of PvP his impact was never that high, other than making you waste a lot of time playing meaningless games. That said he's still pretty dangerous in PvP, because even the AI can play him well if he gets his 4th stun off (by then you'd be have team stun), though since Spiderman vs Spiderman = autowin for the human, you can always bring out your Spiderman if you're that worried.

How are you playing that the AI is able to gather 20 blue AP? Without already putting you in dire straights from their other characters?

Unknown

Spoit wrote:

How are you playing that the AI is able to gather 20 blue AP? Without already putting you in dire straights from their other characters?

I mean 4 stuns prior to his nerf. By the time the fourth ATU gets on board, you're in real danger of starting to lose several turns. It didn't happen very often but it's something you have to watch out for.

Spoit

Phantron wrote:

Spoit wrote:

How are you playing that the AI is able to gather 20 blue AP? Without already putting you in dire straights from their other characters?

I mean 4 stuns prior to his nerf. By the time the fourth ATU gets on board, you're in real danger of starting to lose several turns. It didn't happen very often but it's something you have to watch out for.

I'd argue that if you get to the point where the AI was able to pull off a 4th ATU you'd already be in real danger regardless. Unless you were setting up the webtiles for him.

(a 3* venom would actually be pretty neat, especially if he had a power that consumed webs offensively)

Unknown

Wow to the totally unnecessary changing to low lvl slot purchases. Just...wow. like gamar said, don't piss on my leg and.tell me its raining. I mean, come on. Even a handicapped duck would understand that no price change + no side benefit + grouping together = attempt to make ppl not have enough to purchase things with thier own hp and so they will feel the need to drop money on.hp. specifically, you can no longer afford to, after winning a tournement, buy a new slot for your newly won cover anymore at low lvls.

Started downloading a dc injustice app (dc..I know right?). One thing I noticed while looking for a new game though is...EVERYTHING IS FHE SAME TINYKITTY IN THE APP STORES ...seriously. one new idea and 10,000 clones. And they all push more and more towards iap so moving from.this to another game would likely be a lateral move at best. So yea, maybe I should just go and buy a gameboy and be "that guy" who is over 20 playing a gameboy in a suit lol.

Oh yea, and now that I actually USED spidey, I can OFFICIALLY say he is a damn joke now. And I need go respec him to 5/5/3 to get the most out of his horrible weakened heal.

ClydeFrog76

Just played with Spidey for the first time since Nerfageddon.

*sob*

He really is a gold Bagman now. As useful as a waterproof teabag.

You'll pay for this D3. You and your little dog, too!

Frailezim

Sneaking in "gameplay" changes after you have a discussion thread is absolute ****. You've known about the slot changes for ages and you bring this up now?

Not content with **** over vets, the focus is now on newbs. Awesome work.

Unknown

Spoit wrote:

Phantron wrote:

Spoit wrote:

How are you playing that the AI is able to gather 20 blue AP? Without already putting you in dire straights from their other characters?

I mean 4 stuns prior to his nerf. By the time the fourth ATU gets on board, you're in real danger of starting to lose several turns. It didn't happen very often but it's something you have to watch out for.

I'd argue that if you get to the point where the AI was able to pull off a 4th ATU you'd already be in real danger regardless. Unless you were setting up the webtiles for him.

(a 3* venom would actually be pretty neat, especially if he had a power that consumed webs offensively)

It's only 8 blue AP to get 4 ATUs before the nerf. Yes you usually have time to get rid of the web tiles but that's hardly an unfathomable amount of blue AP we're talking about here.

Spoit

Phantron wrote:

Spoit wrote:

Phantron wrote:

Spoit wrote:

How are you playing that the AI is able to gather 20 blue AP? Without already putting you in dire straights from their other characters?

I mean 4 stuns prior to his nerf. By the time the fourth ATU gets on board, you're in real danger of starting to lose several turns. It didn't happen very often but it's something you have to watch out for.

I'd argue that if you get to the point where the AI was able to pull off a 4th ATU you'd already be in real danger regardless. Unless you were setting up the webtiles for him.

(a 3* venom would actually be pretty neat, especially if he had a power that consumed webs offensively)

It's only 8 blue AP to get 4 ATUs before the nerf. Yes you usually have time to get rid of the web tiles but that's hardly an unfathomable amount of blue AP we're talking about here.

Ah, I missed the pre-nerf part.

Unknown

IceIX,

As it looks like it's the only thread You care to occasionally reply to people, please answer the following:

1. When will the shield lag issue be solved? I know it raises Your income, but the description of shield is incorrect - If I buy something with my hard earned HP, I want it to work just as described. Not to be hit for -160pts a minute after I put on the shield (check out player Gumisk case).

2. When will the incorrect rewards issue be solved? We have players who left / were kicked out of the alliance after Season 1 ended, but before the rewards were given. And they didn't get their rewards, while our new members got rewards for our placement.


You have to understand - we don't want care about cosmetic changes. We don't care that much how exactly the crit tile looks like. Or if Falcon's description states that he's Modern or Mighty Avengers. We want the bugs to be fixed.

Maybe stop focusing about the revenue and do Your job properly?

Thank You in advance,
Emeryt

Bowgentle

Emeryt wrote:

Maybe stop focusing about the revenue and do Your job properly?

Look at the changes of the past 5 weeks or so and you can figure out what their job is.
Making the game enjoyable doesn't seem to be included in the job description, making money definitely is.

Unknown

Well shockingly post nerf spiderman is exactly as frigging useless as he looked like he would be form his description. He is happily vying for the worst 3 skill 3* now and arguably takes the title because his function of mitigating damage (all he does) is done better by a 2* (OBW) and arguably better by a much more offensive 3* (L.Cap). He's not even that good of a prologue healer unless you already have him well over lvl 100, you're better off using OBW...

Very frustrating that they opened a feedback thread, only replied a couple of times to the most innocuous and valueless questions then after overwhelmingly negative feedback on the scale of the changes did exactly what they posted. IMO if you spent directly on Spiderman, be it through covers or ISO used immediately to level him you could contact CS, state it's your opinion this is a bait and switch and demand your money back. After such a drastic reduction in functionality there's no way you are receiving that which you were enticed to buy nor is there any way they can claim you could be reasonably expected to expect such a drastic reduction in the value of that which you purchased at point of sale (unless you spent cash on him post announcement of specific changes).

If you're on this thread saying you think he's ok post nerf then PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE put him in ALL your PvP teams I'll happily risk attacking you as many times as I can find you so you can prove your point....

Unknown

Skyedyne wrote:

With this (awesome!) change I can actually look at another PvP team and not be instantly annoyed prior to entering the match. Now the stun will actually be worth it's "weight" in cost, which is now good both for the player and the game, as it will incur strategic use than spam using it for an instant lockdown.

This really makes me wonder how much players actually understand game mechanics. Is there really somebody out there who would honestly claim to waste precious moves collecting five blue for a single target, single turn stun? Sure, you can delay a nasty skill until the next round, but why not collect some damage related AP instead and remove that nasty skill altogether? It seems to have about as much strategic use as collecting environment in a city terrain.

Unknown

Moghwyn wrote:

This really makes me wonder how much players actually understand game mechanics. Is there really somebody out there who would honestly claim to waste precious moves collecting five blue for a single target, single turn stun? Sure, you can delay a nasty skill until the next round, but why not collect some damage related AP instead and remove that nasty skill altogether? It seems to have about as much strategic use as collecting environment in a city terrain.

I wonder the same, best are the posts like: "You just have to collect 15 blue, protect your web tiles, match purple couple of times and collect 12 yellow. Now you're basically invulnerable to match damage and can heal what you have lost. That's still great support and promotes strategy." Yeah right, problem is in the 20 turns this takes you to get the match going, you could have facerolled 2 teams with LT alone already.

Unknown

Skyedyne wrote:

As each of his skills is defensive in nature, there was absolutely no reason that he should have been equally as strong, if not more so, on offense. At least this change keeps him in line of the thought of him being a big deal on defense, while keeping him away from the "abuse" of using him as an offensive stunlock.

As the direction of the game gets more balanced out, I have seen defense begin to play a bigger and bigger part of PvP. Much like they intended it to be back in the baby days of the game. Granted, speed killed several months ago, but by drawing out battles (which spidey is exceptional at), it's beginning to give defense a more appropriate chance to do its end of the bargain.

This part doesn't make any sense to me. Spiderman wasn't an issue on defense before. Now he's worse at everything he does. How is he "a big deal on defense?" A full team stun-lock took 10 AP (your 2nd character came up as the computer used stun number 4) before. Even if that somehow was a serious problem in the heady pre-nerf days (and I'm not convinced that it ever was), these days that much AP will get the computer 2 stuns. Meanwhile, the computer is/might be healing for a little bit more and making weaker defense tiles.

The real issue with his moveset is that (as has been mentioned) a 1-turn stun isn't useful. Captain America's 2-turn stun isn't super useful (outside of goon fights), but the fact that it is AP efficient and leaves a protect tile (at 3*) makes it worth using. So Spiderman has a 5 AP move that gives you a 1-turn stun. If you use it again within a short span of time, you get a 2-turn stun. If you use it a 3rd time before losing one of your relatively rare web tiles, you've wasted your time because that 15 AP probably could have been better spent elsewhere.

Although, now that I think about it...if they "balance" Magneto's blue, what 3* ability is going to be vying for top spot in blue? Bloody Bewilder?

Unknown

Moon 17 wrote:

Although, now that I think about it...if they "balance" Magneto's blue, what 3* ability is going to be vying for top spot in blue? Bloody Bewilder?

Probably Dakan's damage dealing.

Unknown

That's just it. I forgot about him because he's so new. I also forgot about Cap's Peacemaker.

That's convenient, and herds people toward the newer characters.

Unknown

Finally registered for a forum account just to give some feedback on this.

Spiderman is my highest level character, and one of the first that I maxed covers on (currently L100). I am now looking at being completely non-competitive for the next few weeks as I try to level up a replacement. I have played a few games with him and against him and he is just not worth running -- for any reason. I used to have to target enemy Spiderman as a #1 priority or risk losing the match. Now there is no reason to even attack him until everyone else is dead -- he does practically nothing.

I probably was one of the edge cases who was able to play against and defeat much harder teams because of the stunlocking potential. Now my MMR from months of Spiderman play says I should be able to beat level 141 Lazy Thor's and Hulks but my next tier or heroes is only pushing L70-80. How many losses do I need to pile up before I can see matches I can win again? How do I even progress and level up my next tier of characters? PvE only for the next 6 months? Drop $1000 on iso? Spend 50 iso every match cherry-picking? No thanks.

I see no reason beyond color pairings to run Spiderman over Original Black Widow. The power level of the 3* character releases has been going through the roof on offense; why give Spiderman such pitiful defense? He seems to be either the worst or near worst 3* available and I am saddened that I have invested in him as much as I have.

Unknown

Moon 17 wrote:

Although, now that I think about it...if they "balance" Magneto's blue, what 3* ability is going to be vying for top spot in blue? Bloody Bewilder?

BP's blue pretty much rocks, was only shadowed by sm/mags. And compare THAT for protection value with anything SM does: in practice 8 blue gets you a ton of good protection. Calculate the cost of similar from new spidey. And you get it on character with way more health, a team-demolishing black and even some cookie drop in yellow for cases you're idle there.

Steve is also so cool.

Bewilder should be purple and would be fair too, or allow you to select the steal color.

madaken not yet tested, as opponent was pretty strong, though it was lvl 220 and up.

Unknown

I have never had the luxury of being able to use Spiderman (I have had him with one yellow cover since my 2nd or 3rd week playing from a lucky standard token but never another cover since!) so i cant comment on his nerf.

The other change announced I can comment on. You know, the totally unnecessary and done purely for greed one?
Honestly, is anybody buying IceIX's company scripted and frankly patronising 'reasons' for why they feel the need to group Roster slots for purchase?
Making a change like this and then saying it is in order to help newer players learn about saving up their HP and because people dont want to keep spending in small amounts is pathetic. The term 'microtransactions' for in-game purchases is used for a reason. If the transactions are small then nobody really pays them much attention and is quite willing to press a couple of buttons and spend their money. Surely people are far happier with smaller transactions, not to mention more able to afford them.

To be honest this doesnt affect me at all as i have 40 characters already, my daughter however doesnt. As somebody has already said saving up enough HP for a roster slot is hard enough at that level, now she has no hope of ever getting enough before the covers expire and guess whose credit card funds her previously smaller purchases? Now they will be larger purchases and although I realise that in the long term the cost will be same I resent being forced into this in the name of helping her learn a lesson esp by a company who I have lost all respect for long ago.

This change was as needed as changing what a critical tile looks like and altering the layout of the cover store but at least they didnt end up up hitting my pocket.

DD-The-Mighty

pasa_ wrote:

Moon 17 wrote:

Although, now that I think about it...if they "balance" Magneto's blue, what 3* ability is going to be vying for top spot in blue? Bloody Bewilder?

BP's blue pretty much rocks, was only shadowed by sm/mags. And compare THAT for protection value with anything SM does: in practice 8 blue gets you a ton of good protection. Calculate the cost of similar from new spidey. And you get it on character with way more health, a team-demolishing black and even some cookie drop in yellow for cases you're idle there.

Steve is also so cool.

Bewilder should be purple and would be fair too, or allow you to select the steal color.

madaken not yet tested, as opponent was pretty strong, though it was lvl 220 and up.

Agreed on Black Panthers's blue. My only beefs is you have to get it in early or stack 2 CD tiles of it to really get it going. Its one of those colours that when there is nothing better to do with blue i can just set it and forget it. BP's Yellow seems to have the same problem spidermans blue and purple have now: To see any worth while benefits you have to do some annoying turn consuming stuff before hand. In a perfect vacuum its pretty decent, if not good, but in a real match where the opponent is also going after mostly the same colours you can go nearly the whole match just trying to get that 30 enviro+8 Yellow. (in spider-guy's case 3 web-tiles and all that blue to make it work).

With BP at least his yellow can be used as a sort of set it and forget it, type move. casually grab enviro tiles and yellow as per the situation applies and then when you have the magic 30/45/60 environment you pop off those strike tiles. Or if you cont seem to get the enviros you just keep hitting 8 and spamming the tiles one by one. not the most direct and powerful strike tiles in the 3* game, but when there's nothing better (or you get that sweet, sweet critical enviroment match) it can give you a nice damage turnaround with the rank high enough on each tile. (@lvl 85 3/5Y I get +70 att per tile)

In the case of spider-man, first you got to get the blue to get the web, then get the yellow to get the heal, hope that you have no protect tiles out to match the purple to get the better protect tile, all the while making possible less than optimal matches just to protect the web tiles you have out. It ends up feeling like all you're doing, is trying to make this one aspect, from one character, out of total three, actually work. All that time the enemy is building ap and denying you, while your wasting time chasing down 2-3 stun on one character and a decent bump in the healing. Hes the MPQ equivalent of a ball hog.

he's not abysmal, but he really does not feel worth all the effort that he takes away from the rest of the team, especially if they have better uses for his colours. I think they should have gone with a more traditional stun mechanic like venom or mBW. Simple, direct, and effective.