Patch Notes 5/21 Discussion (Inc Spider-Man)

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Comments

  • Unknown
    Unknown
    The "bundling" of slots is pure ****. "More impactful" is just utter nonsense. You buy a slot when you need a slot, and HP is hard when you are starting. Yet another player unfriendly change. I already have 38 slots so this does not affect me, but boy are you people getting brazenly greedy.

    And trying to pretend this is somehow a good thing for players when you don't even provide a discount for bundling??? And making it mandatory??? We aren't that stupid.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    NorthernPolarity wrote:
    IceIX wrote:
    Nonce Equitaur 2 wrote:
    19 pages of thoughtful discussion and commentary are at Upcoming Character Change: Spider-Man (Classic).
    Well, not *all* the posts there are thoughtful, but understand what you're saying. icon_e_smile.gif We've gone through that whole thread and are moving ahead as planned. That doesn't mean that further comments and suggestions aren't discussed, or that further changes may not be made.

    Random thought: Ragnarok was nerfed a while back, and I'm guessing that its safe to say that his nerfs were overdone. I'm curious about the usage statistics of the character post-nerf: has his usage plummeted post nerfs like I would imagine (with the exception of tournaments that feature him), and are you guys going to take this into account when considering future balancing decisions? That is, if you see players all of the sudden never using Spidey, are you going to consider rebuffing him to a more reasonable power level? I am of course asking if you're going to do this within a reasonable timeframe: 4 months was a bit much for fixing an absurdly overpowered character like Spidey.

    They have to give him a 3rd power first. I don't think it makes sense to try to balance characters with only 2 powers to those with 3. If they're actually balanced (like Daken 2* is balanced to level 85 characters at 69), then you create a scaling nightmare in PvE when the lower level hero with stronger skill are allowed to catch up in levels. The heroes with 3 skills have about 25% more levels than the heroes with 2 skills in the same tier. That's just not something that can be balanced for PvE and PvP at the same time unless those guys also have lower level in PvE (which is certainly doable, but would be very different from what we're used to seeing).
  • user311
    user311 Posts: 482 Mover and Shaker
    Maybe Im misunderstanding something. If right now I only have 450HP to add a slot for Nick Fury as my 34th character, are you saying I now have to spend money or risk not earning 150 more HP in the next 6 days and have all of my Season 1 work expire?
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    Phantron wrote:
    gamar wrote:
    Phantron wrote:
    Psykopathic wrote:
    Step 1 - randomize environments
    Step 2 - fix **** environments such as city and Latveria (or whatever their called)

    At least we are 1/2 way there on this 1. Wonder how far down the "back burners" step 2 is.

    This at least solves the problem of 'always/never play on desert/forest' depending on who you're running. It's pretty much always if you have GSBW, Punisher, Magneto, BP, or The Hood, and never if you're not using those characters.

    Or, y'know, Thor.

    In fact, always play on desert if any of your characters has a green ability or is Daken. Always play on jungle otherwise icon_lol.gif

    Thor is only 3 environmental damage so even though he benefits immensely from desert, it'd not be adviseable to play on that environment if your other two characters are not one of the aforementioned characters. Magneto creates crit tiles. GSBW/Punisher are 4 environmental damage and 4X crit mod (highest combo in game). BP is second highest (4/3.5X), and The Hood is third at (3/4.5X). If your entire team is 3/3X and they have say, Punisher, you're actually playing at a very significant disadvantage. Spiderman is 4/3X, but is likely no longer a top tier character after today's Patch.

    If my team is 3/3X and they have anybody but mStorm, I'm not at a disadvantage at all because: the AI is incredibly dumb
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    Rajjeq wrote:
    The "bundling" of slots is pure ****. "More impactful" is just utter nonsense. You buy a slot when you need a slot, and HP is hard when you are starting. Yet another player unfriendly change. I already have 38 slots so this does not affect me, but boy are you people getting brazenly greedy.

    And trying to pretend this is somehow a good thing for players when you don't even provide a discount for bundling??? And making it mandatory??? We aren't that stupid.

    Is there a discount? I don't know what the values for the HP slots at that range are so I can't tell if they're just the previous cost added together or not. If it's the same as what it was before, then that's a pretty bad idea. If it's slightly cheaper, I think it'll be better overall for new players.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    edited May 2014
    Nonce Equitaur 2 wrote:
    19 pages of thoughtful discussion and commentary are at Upcoming Character Change: Spider-Man (Classic).


    Completely ignored...

    This gives me massive pause for putting any money into this game in the future. Massive swings like this mean even smaller swings to other characters that would break them are viewed as OK.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    gamar wrote:

    If my team is 3/3X and they have anybody but mStorm, I'm not at a disadvantage at all because: the AI is incredibly dumb

    You're definitely disadvantaged against say Punisher because randomly using Oasis is still generally massively favorable for the team using it. A team with Punisher can do 2 Oasis in one match 3 environmental crit + 1 cascade, or 1 Oasis in 2 match 3s + 1 cascade.
  • NorthernPolarity
    NorthernPolarity Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
    Phantron wrote:
    NorthernPolarity wrote:
    IceIX wrote:
    Nonce Equitaur 2 wrote:
    19 pages of thoughtful discussion and commentary are at Upcoming Character Change: Spider-Man (Classic).
    Well, not *all* the posts there are thoughtful, but understand what you're saying. icon_e_smile.gif We've gone through that whole thread and are moving ahead as planned. That doesn't mean that further comments and suggestions aren't discussed, or that further changes may not be made.

    Random thought: Ragnarok was nerfed a while back, and I'm guessing that its safe to say that his nerfs were overdone. I'm curious about the usage statistics of the character post-nerf: has his usage plummeted post nerfs like I would imagine (with the exception of tournaments that feature him), and are you guys going to take this into account when considering future balancing decisions? That is, if you see players all of the sudden never using Spidey, are you going to consider rebuffing him to a more reasonable power level? I am of course asking if you're going to do this within a reasonable timeframe: 4 months was a bit much for fixing an absurdly overpowered character like Spidey.

    They have to give him a 3rd power first. I don't think it makes sense to try to balance characters with only 2 powers to those with 3. If they're actually balanced (like Daken 2* is balanced to level 85 characters at 69), then you create a scaling nightmare in PvE when the lower level hero with stronger skill are allowed to catch up in levels. The heroes with 3 skills have about 25% more levels than the heroes with 2 skills in the same tier. That's just not something that can be balanced for PvE and PvP at the same time unless those guys also have lower level in PvE (which is certainly doable, but would be very different from what we're used to seeing).

    I don't agree with this: Rags is a character that currently has one good skill (thunderclap) and one **** skill (godlike power). Balancing can be done such that he is instead given two okay/good skills right now by just making the third skill not as powerful as it would have been otherwise. It's not so much asking them to make Rags as powerful as Punisher as much as it is throwing him a bone so that he can actually see some play. A buff to godlike power would go a long way towards this since thunderclap is actually color-shifted thunder strike in disguise (costing red is a lot worse than costing yellow, but the ability itself is pretty good).
  • Nonce Equitaur 2
    Nonce Equitaur 2 Posts: 2,269 Chairperson of the Boards
    bonebreak wrote:
    Nonce Equitaur 2 wrote:
    19 pages of thoughtful discussion and commentary are at Upcoming Character Change: Spider-Man (Classic).
    This gives me massive pause for putting any money into this game in the future. Massive swings like this mean even smaller swings to other characters that would break them are viewed as OK.

    Spiderman is known for massive swings. Maybe in a few months, he'll get an ultra-buff, followed a month later by an ultra-nerf. Or perhaps he can swing back and forth between them on even/odd numbered days.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    Rajjeq wrote:
    The "bundling" of slots is pure ****. "More impactful" is just utter nonsense. You buy a slot when you need a slot, and HP is hard when you are starting. Yet another player unfriendly change. I already have 38 slots so this does not affect me, but boy are you people getting brazenly greedy.

    And trying to pretend this is somehow a good thing for players when you don't even provide a discount for bundling??? And making it mandatory??? We aren't that stupid.


    I must be a crazy person for still playing a game I would never recommend to my family or friends.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    Phantron wrote:
    Rajjeq wrote:
    The "bundling" of slots is pure ****. "More impactful" is just utter nonsense. You buy a slot when you need a slot, and HP is hard when you are starting. Yet another player unfriendly change. I already have 38 slots so this does not affect me, but boy are you people getting brazenly greedy.

    And trying to pretend this is somehow a good thing for players when you don't even provide a discount for bundling??? And making it mandatory??? We aren't that stupid.

    Is there a discount? I don't know what the values for the HP slots at that range are so I can't tell if they're just the previous cost added together or not. If it's the same as what it was before, then that's a pretty bad idea. If it's slightly cheaper, I think it'll be better overall for new players.
    It says right in the patch notes that the costs are the same:

    - Comic Slots have been reworked from Slots 8-24. Costs are unchanged, but these Slots have been grouped together for group purchases. The intent is to allow users to save for these Comic Slots while making the purchase of these bundles feel more impactful instead of piecemeal.
  • Spoit
    Spoit Posts: 3,441 Chairperson of the Boards
    Phantron wrote:
    NorthernPolarity wrote:
    IceIX wrote:
    Nonce Equitaur 2 wrote:
    19 pages of thoughtful discussion and commentary are at Upcoming Character Change: Spider-Man (Classic).
    Well, not *all* the posts there are thoughtful, but understand what you're saying. icon_e_smile.gif We've gone through that whole thread and are moving ahead as planned. That doesn't mean that further comments and suggestions aren't discussed, or that further changes may not be made.

    Random thought: Ragnarok was nerfed a while back, and I'm guessing that its safe to say that his nerfs were overdone. I'm curious about the usage statistics of the character post-nerf: has his usage plummeted post nerfs like I would imagine (with the exception of tournaments that feature him), and are you guys going to take this into account when considering future balancing decisions? That is, if you see players all of the sudden never using Spidey, are you going to consider rebuffing him to a more reasonable power level? I am of course asking if you're going to do this within a reasonable timeframe: 4 months was a bit much for fixing an absurdly overpowered character like Spidey.

    They have to give him a 3rd power first. I don't think it makes sense to try to balance characters with only 2 powers to those with 3. If they're actually balanced (like Daken 2* is balanced to level 85 characters at 69), then you create a scaling nightmare in PvE when the lower level hero with stronger skill are allowed to catch up in levels. The heroes with 3 skills have about 25% more levels than the heroes with 2 skills in the same tier. That's just not something that can be balanced for PvE and PvP at the same time unless those guys also have lower level in PvE (which is certainly doable, but would be very different from what we're used to seeing).
    As the only 3* (other than laken now) he's already one of the tamest scaling dark avengers. Like, he's only above yelena in my kill order, at scaled levels, even bullseye or moonstone are higher priorities
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    Spoit wrote:
    As the only 3* (other than laken now) he's already one of the tamest scaling dark avengers. Like, he's only above yelena in my kill order, at scaled levels, even bullseye or moonstone are higher priorities

    Like I realized in the first Rags tournament this season, he literally makes your team worse than a team with two characters. His "two medium colors" gimmick means he doesn't tank any colors so his high HP means nothing, on defense he uses his worthless green to prevent anybody else from using their green, and his red while not AWFUL is also almost always the worst red ability on your team.

    Even Bagman is merely worthless, he doesn't PENALIZE you for having him on the team
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    The intent is to get players used to saving and spending Hero Points earlier on.

    1-24 = 3900 HP (Either way)
    1-48 = 15300 HP
    1-72 = 33900 HP

    1st 24 = 3900 HP
    2nd 24 = 11400 HP
    3rd 24 = 18600 HP

    ----------------
 5	 50	  50
----------------
 6	 50	  50
----------------
 7	100	 100
----------------
 8	100	
 9	150	
10	150 	400
----------------
11	150	
12	150	
13	200 	500
----------------
14	200	
15	200	
16	200 	600
----------------
17	250	
18	250 	500
----------------
19	250	
20	250 	500
----------------
21	300	
22	300 	600
----------------
23	300	
24	300 	600	
----------------
25	350 	   
----------------
49	650 	   
----------------
73	950 	   
----------------
  • DD-The-Mighty
    DD-The-Mighty Posts: 350 Mover and Shaker
    gamar wrote:
    Spoit wrote:
    As the only 3* (other than laken now) he's already one of the tamest scaling dark avengers. Like, he's only above yelena in my kill order, at scaled levels, even bullseye or moonstone are higher priorities

    Like I realized in the first Rags tournament this season, he literally makes your team worse than a team with two characters. His "two medium colors" gimmick means he doesn't tank any colors so his high HP means nothing, on defense he uses his worthless green to prevent anybody else from using their green, and his red while not AWFUL is also almost always the worst red ability on your team.

    Even Bagman is merely worthless, he doesn't PENALIZE you for having him on the team
    Note: i never even saw old Ragnarok. I joined just before they power nerfed him. So i have no real idea of how devastating he used to be.

    To Ragnaroks Credits, Hes got a meaty amount of health so defensively he's a chore (like a baby hulk), and he's good for taking a hit to the face. When you cap his covers they cascade well into one another and with his low costs he is constantly attacking. I think if he did more solid damage with those two moves he would finally be a threat without needing the aid of a strike tile teammate. and maybe extend his Godlike Power to three centre columns at 5/5 -in exchange for the paltry damage it does now-. really make it shake up the board. And i agree that he should use (and generate) different colours. Red and green are fae too common and far too better used. Maybe yellow and purple. That's what makes doom so awesome, he's one of the few who generate black and if noone is using it better he can lay down some of the meanest attack tiles in the game. that is an example of a great 2 colour character. I guess either up Rags utility (tile Colour generation and board clearing) or up his damage.

    but all in all I wholly agree that as he is, he is just a giant meat punching bag.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    So once again, except for Spider-Man, we get purely cosmetic changes in the patch notes.

    The change in roster slots - pure ****. Devs, do You actually see anything through those glasses?
    Dollar_Glasses.jpg

    Makes me wonder what changes aren't included in the patch notes and we will find them in the next couple of days... and be pretty pissed about them.

    it's called tradition, right?
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    NorthernPolarity wrote:

    I don't agree with this: Rags is a character that currently has one good skill (thunderclap) and one **** skill (godlike power). Balancing can be done such that he is instead given two okay/good skills right now by just making the third skill not as powerful as it would have been otherwise. It's not so much asking them to make Rags as powerful as Punisher as much as it is throwing him a bone so that he can actually see some play. A buff to godlike power would go a long way towards this since thunderclap is actually color-shifted thunder strike in disguise (costing red is a lot worse than costing yellow, but the ability itself is pretty good).

    It can work but then his PvE counterpart would have to be permanently at 20% lower level than other characters too, or you'll have a repeat issue of Daken 2* being godlike in PvE in ultra high levels.

    To be fair I'm not seeing what is preventing them from having a team like level 395 lazy Thor + level 315 Ragnarok if he's actually balanced, but it's just something we've never seen yet.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    Bugpop wrote:
    The intent is to get players used to saving and spending Hero Points earlier on.

    1-24 = 3900 HP (Either way)
    1-48 = 15300 HP
    1-72 = 33900 HP

    1st 24 = 3900 HP
    2nd 24 = 11400 HP
    3rd 24 = 18600 HP

    Because the amount you need per bundle is bigger I'm pretty sure the incentive is to get people to buy an extra 200 or 500 HP they need instead of saving up. I don't think it's wrong to try to make a few more buck, but they can throw people a bone with 50 HP off the bundle compared to the individual prices there. It's similar to the alliance expansion cost issue. Saving up a large amount of HP is simply pretty hard for the new guy and is rightfully viewed as a cheap trick to increase sales. Shaving 50 HP per bundle is like selling individual slot for 16 HP cheaper, so it hardly has an impact on revenue margins and it'd be hard to argue that it's a trick to increase sales when it is cheaper.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    Nonce Equitaur 2 wrote:
    Spiderman is known for massive swings.
    I see what you did there...

    Anyway, I'll still use him for a while
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    Spoit wrote:
    As the only 3* (other than laken now) he's already one of the tamest scaling dark avengers. Like, he's only above yelena in my kill order, at scaled levels, even bullseye or moonstone are higher priorities

    That's not really a fair comparison since all 2* scale better than all 3*s in general because each level for a 2* is worth more power.

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