Patch Notes 5/21 Discussion (Inc Spider-Man)

Unknown

DD-The-Mighty wrote:

Chimaera wrote:

I am going to give few perspectives here.

~SNIP

But tldr, the rags nerf was necessary for the game to progress, just as the spidey nerf is, has to happen. Stop complaining.

Oh as a ftp the cover slot system change probably would have made me quit the game at that point. I made it through not selling any three stars but you cant do that now. Its a clear paywall.

Cool story bro.
Who's asking for old Spidey back? EVERYONE (with sense) agrees that he could not stay as he was, he was single handlely screwing with the 3* metagame. Most of the posters here are commenting how now he is not working well as he is now. Functional, but he really could be ALOT better, befitting of his 3* status and pain in the butt aquisition.

but no, please tell us more borderline, off topic, long winded, stories that end in the tried and true "deal wit it bruh" response.

No, a huge number of people were and are insisting he didn't need a nerf at all and an even huger amount of people, in fact a majority of people in this thread, have taken a viewpoint that is basically "well ok i can see that a level 15 spidey shouldn't be able to easily stunlock the entire enemy team once he gets 2 AP but come on a level 15 Spidey should DEFINITELY be able to easily stunlock the entire enemy team forever once he gets 10 AP!!!" which is almost as stupid

Unknown

Chimaera wrote:

But tldr, the rags nerf was necessary for the game to progress, just as the spidey nerf is, has to happen. Stop complaining.

Do you miss the point of complaints completely or you misrepresent it?

Yes, nerfs to rags and spidey were needed. Can you show a single complaint arguing to keep the old stuff? I doubt.

The complaint goes against THAT particular change. It is possible to tune down power in many different ways and both rags and SM was massvely overdone. If the nerf was done right you'd see way less complaints and a plenty of "good that way" comments. Not from those wanted to simply ban him.

Unknown

Chimaera wrote:

DD-The-Mighty wrote:

Chimaera wrote:

I am going to give few perspectives here.

~SNIP

But tldr, the rags nerf was necessary for the game to progress, just as the spidey nerf is, has to happen. Stop complaining.

Oh as a ftp the cover slot system change probably would have made me quit the game at that point. I made it through not selling any three stars but you cant do that now. Its a clear paywall.

Cool story bro.
Who's asking for old Spidey back? EVERYONE (with sense) agrees that he could not stay as he was, he was single handlely screwing with the 3* metagame. Most of the posters here are commenting how now he is not working well as he is now. Functional, but he really could be ALOT better, befitting of his 3* status and pain in the butt aquisition.

but no, please tell us more borderline, off topic, long winded, stories that end in the tried and true "deal wit it bruh" response.

You want a short and to the point? You can balance something that gives you free hero points for 12 yellow and doesn't ruin the meta game? Sweet tell me how. The yellow seems fine, and you should be thankful thats what you get, because thats why he is worth running.

In most games I have played healing is either too good or garbage. D3 should have never allowed it to be in the game if they wanted to use a health pack system. Because it spits on their framework and its very hard to balance something that ruins the fundamentals of the game.

I still think the needed fix is that the health pack system remains the same (d3p got to stack their bills somehow after all) "healing" abilities should instead give temporary hit points (capped at normal HP + temp HP = character's max health) that go away after the battle ends

Unknown

Chimaera wrote:

Once they ruin cmags I will probably not be happy but it will need to be done. However this is the last vestige of recurring low risk repeatable damage left in the game. Which is going to expose the health pack system. That will literally need to be reworked and I hope D3 is looking at that. Spiderman was inflating the points out there in PvP and I suspect there is going to be a noticeable difference now. Most people will no longer be able to play constantly any longer and that is something D3 needs to be worried about.


But tldr, the rags nerf was necessary for the game to progress, just as the spidey nerf is, has to happen. Stop complaining.

Who is complaining that Spidey should stay OP? They just think the nerfbat swung a bit too hard. This misconception feels like deja vu of the forums after the Rag nerf, when the whining-about-whining posters were basically like, "You guys knew he was OP, stop complaining."

Also, comparing new Spidey's blue to current CMag's blue is both frightening and depressing

Unknown

pasa_ wrote:

Yes, nerfs to rags and spidey were needed. Can you show a single complaint arguing to keep the old stuff? I doubt.

Took me 30 seconds to find this but just to prove a point.

AresWr4th wrote:

Thanx for crippling my game play method guys,I just felt the blunt of new spidey in PVE, got wiped.This move will probably singlehandly kill my addiction to MPQ along with my 8+ hours a day.Please change spidey back before its too late.Im 200ish days straight and would mourn as I start browsing the AppStore again, cuz im constantly leaving my amount of play tyme on chance,... P.S now 1 of my 2 capped 3 star's are useless.Great to know those i bust **** getting to cap taking ungodly amounts of iso will be nullified at whim.Seems like its triple the blow that Rags,thor/wolvie and minor obw, cmags nerfs combined to make useless a grinders most needed player.

But to gobstopper I get you, his blue is pretty meh now. Its like a million times better than Psylockes and BP's though. 5 blue is still not hard to get. I know it is fresh in people's minds that its supposed to be a insta win button but everyone really needs to take a step back. The character cannot function as it once did, if anything I would prefer all spiderman threads locked for a week while everyone gets used to the change and then people come back and comment with something constructive like upping the stun to 2 would be perfect, or it should cost 6 and allow you to place the web tile, who knows.

I guess I am asking myself to be a bit tilted by going to the hot topic nerf thread and reading all the people shouting around. Mob mentality.

Unknown

People forget that the reason Rags was 'broken' was because he allowed people to win matches in 30 seconds (most of that time was just watching animations). He was a self-feeding, low AP, cascade machine with 10,000+ HPs (with buff). You didn't even need to use AP boosts.

Which was especially broken in lightning rounds (the 'elite' tournaments of that time) because of the mega-buff (200%) that villains got. So, this gave anyone lucky enough to pull his cards a huge advantage in the most reward-rich tournaments.

Outside of lightning rounds (and that mega-buff), Rags wasn't that bad or game-breaking.


'Old' Spidey doesn't have that problem. If anything he slowed the game down for people and invited more counter-attacks (due to his low HP and bad AI).

Unknown

Toxicadam do you like playing against 212 pre-nerf Spiderman every round? I just stopped playing, id rather do anything else. Just yesterday I was at 242 points in a lightning round and needed to do one match for a recruit token, skipped into iso loss looking for an non spider team, spoiler alert, I shut the game off rather than play a match.

Slow games make for boring games, boring games which can be very frustrating. I don't play those games.

DD-The-Mighty

gamar wrote:

DD-The-Mighty wrote:

Chimaera wrote:

I am going to give few perspectives here.

~SNIP

But tldr, the rags nerf was necessary for the game to progress, just as the spidey nerf is, has to happen. Stop complaining.

Oh as a ftp the cover slot system change probably would have made me quit the game at that point. I made it through not selling any three stars but you cant do that now. Its a clear paywall.

Cool story bro.
Who's asking for old Spidey back? EVERYONE (with sense) agrees that he could not stay as he was, he was single handlely screwing with the 3* metagame. Most of the posters here are commenting how now he is not working well as he is now. Functional, but he really could be ALOT better, befitting of his 3* status and pain in the butt aquisition.

but no, please tell us more borderline, off topic, long winded, stories that end in the tried and true "deal wit it bruh" response.

No, a huge number of people were and are insisting he didn't need a nerf at all and an even huger amount of people, in fact a majority of people in this thread, have taken a viewpoint that is basically "well ok i can see that a level 15 spidey shouldn't be able to easily stunlock the entire enemy team once he gets 2 AP but come on a level 15 Spidey should DEFINITELY be able to easily stunlock the entire enemy team forever once he gets 10 AP!!!" which is almost as stupid

I never claimed absolutely noone wanted the old SM back. The yellow has received the least amount of complaints as its the lesser of the nerfs. the primary issue has been increased need need of his blue in relation to the endresults and the now even more slightly lackluster purple passive. Compared to every other stunner in the game he is now complicated without any of the significant benefits other than his ability to break level 40, 50, and 85 respectively. In 2/3 moves he feels like he is under-performing as a 3 star.

I at no point thought a 2ap stun lock in the current meta game, is balanced. But keep implying that i am, if that will make your point stronger.

Chimaera wrote:

You want a short and to the point? You can balance something that gives you free hero points for 12 yellow and doesn't ruin the meta game? Sweet tell me how. The yellow seems fine, and you should be thankful thats what you get, because thats why he is worth running.

In most games I have played healing is either too good or garbage. D3 should have never allowed it to be in the game if they wanted to use a health pack system. Because it spits on their framework and its very hard to balance something that ruins the fundamentals of the game.

As for the issues with healers, that problem goes far deeper than spider man or black widow. that goes into the entire health pack system. and until they touch OBW's heal, the somewhatspider-man heal nerf is just that; an isolated nerf. Not a grandiose statement on the healing system in MPQ. His heal isn't great, but its not as weak as his blue and purple.

Unknown

DD-The-Mighty wrote:

I never claimed absolutely noone wanted the old SM back. The yellow has received the least amount of complaints as its the lesser of the nerfs. the primary issue has been increased need need of his blue in relation to the endresults and the now even more slightly lackluster purple passive. Compared to every other stunner in the game he is now complicated without any of the significant benefits other than his ability to break level 40, 50, and 85 respectively. In 2/3 moves he feels like he is under-performing as a 3 star.

I at no point thought a 2ap stun lock in the current meta game, is balanced. But keep implying that i am, if that will make your point stronger.

I wasn't implying anything about you. I was saying that there are a LOT of people saying Spidey didn't need to be nerfed, including like 1/4 of S.H.I.E.L.D in this old thread and some other threads (no comment on whether they have "sense"), so my buddy Chimera wasn't exactly constructing a strawman, contrary to your claim that NOBODY said Spidey was ok before

DD-The-Mighty

gamar wrote:

DD-The-Mighty wrote:

I never claimed absolutely noone wanted the old SM back. The yellow has received the least amount of complaints as its the lesser of the nerfs. the primary issue has been increased need need of his blue in relation to the endresults and the now even more slightly lackluster purple passive. Compared to every other stunner in the game he is now complicated without any of the significant benefits other than his ability to break level 40, 50, and 85 respectively. In 2/3 moves he feels like he is under-performing as a 3 star.

I at no point thought a 2ap stun lock in the current meta game, is balanced. But keep implying that i am, if that will make your point stronger.

I wasn't implying anything about you. I was saying that there are a LOT of people saying Spidey didn't need to be nerfed, including like 1/4 of S.H.I.E.L.D in this old thread and some other threads (no comment on whether they have "sense"), so my buddy Chimera wasn't exactly constructing a strawman, contrary to your claim that NOBODY said Spidey was ok before

True. that's why I semi self corrected with the "with sense" line. But i see how my statement could be taken that way.

My main point i wanted to get across is while i feel the nerf was necessary, I think it fell a bit too hard and that a good portion of the complaints are valid. Blanket dismissal is just as unfair and unneeded as claiming there was no need for the nerf in the 1st place.

mags1587

DD-The-Mighty wrote:

My main point i wanted to get across is while i feel the nerf was necessary, I think it fell a bit too hard and that a good portion of the complaints are valid. Blanket dismissal is just as unfair and unneeded as claiming there was no need for the nerf in the 1st place.

The complaints might be valid, yes. The key word there is 'might'. We can speculate all we like but until we actually have a chance to play with the new changes over a period of time, it's not fair to say that he's completely ruined and useless except for healing. My guess from looking at the specs is that they went a little too far, same as yours, but I'm not going to be sure of that until I live with the changes for awhile. The same thing that happened to Amazing Wolvie is happening here, I think. Wolvie was completely overpowered for a 2* and when the changes came through it was a huge difference. A lot of people just declared him useless and moved on but I've played with him and he's still really effective. So I'm going to use Spiderman for awhile and see if he'll still be effective.

Unknown

Chimaera wrote:

You want a short and to the point? You can balance something that gives you free hero points for 12 yellow and doesn't ruin the meta game? Sweet tell me how. The yellow seems fine, and you should be thankful thats what you get, because thats why he is worth running.

In most games I have played healing is either too good or garbage. D3 should have never allowed it to be in the game if they wanted to use a health pack system. Because it spits on their framework and its very hard to balance something that ruins the fundamentals of the game.

I've been saying for a while that healing literally makes no sense in a game where the goal is to get you killed so you can buy health packs. If healing works, then the business model does not, and it's hard to see any game concept trumping the business model.

Unknown

Toxicadam wrote:

People forget that the reason Rags was 'broken' was because he allowed people to win matches in 30 seconds (most of that time was just watching animations). He was a self-feeding, low AP, cascade machine with 10,000+ HPs (with buff). You didn't even need to use AP boosts.

Which was especially broken in lightning rounds (the 'elite' tournaments of that time) because of the mega-buff (200%) that villains got. So, this gave anyone lucky enough to pull his cards a huge advantage in the most reward-rich tournaments.

Outside of lightning rounds (and that mega-buff), Rags wasn't that bad or game-breaking.


'Old' Spidey doesn't have that problem. If anything he slowed the game down for people and invited more counter-attacks (due to his low HP and bad AI).

Spiderman is nerfed because his existence goes against the business model of the game (health pack requires you to actually die), and that you can't make a meaningful PvE encounter when the other side never gets a turn.

In terms of PvP his impact was never that high, other than making you waste a lot of time playing meaningless games. That said he's still pretty dangerous in PvP, because even the AI can play him well if he gets his 4th stun off (by then you'd be have team stun), though since Spiderman vs Spiderman = autowin for the human, you can always bring out your Spiderman if you're that worried.

Unknown

On the whole, I don't see this as being as bad a nerf as it appears. I believe that it's unfair to compare single skills to other single skills out there. It's the set of skills that make a character, not each individual one.

In this aspect, I see him more as a defensive punisher in that he may not be exceptional anymore in any one ability (happy happy dance time for me! Ahem!) , but with all three defensive skills he could be very good on defense. I also firmly believe that once some of the knee jerk reaction dies down that a place in the team can be found, even if that may mean he gets matched with other 3* characters not immediately available to a player.

On his own, his 2 ap stun was OP at worst, and downright infuriating at best dependant on which side of the court you were on. The fact that the (argueably) most potent ability in the game was available to him on demand essentially made defense moot. I cannot begin to tell you how many retals I encountered with my hulk/hawkeye/patch team that had a max level spidey in it (hint: every single one).

With this (awesome!) change I can actually look at another PvP team and not be instantly annoyed prior to entering the match. Now the stun will actually be worth it's "weight" in cost, which is now good both for the player and the game, as it will incur strategic use than spam using it for an instant lockdown.

I focus on the stun the most because this is perceived to be the most infuriating change, but overall, I love what they did to him. Morally, I can now use him and not feel **** about it.

Unknown

Skyedyne wrote:

On the whole, I don't see this as being as bad a nerf as it appears. I believe that it's unfair to compare single skills to other single skills out there. It's the set of skills that make a character, not each individual one.

In this aspect, I see him more as a defensive punisher in that he may not be exceptional anymore in any one ability (happy happy dance time for me! Ahem!) , but with all three defensive skills he could be very good on defense. I also firmly believe that once some of the knee jerk reaction dies down that a place in the team can be found, even if that may mean he gets matched with other 3* characters not immediately available to a player.

On his own, his 2 ap stun was OP at worst, and downright infuriating at best dependant on which side of the court you were on. The fact that the (argueably) most potent ability in the game was available to him on demand essentially made defense moot. I cannot begin to tell you how many retals I encountered with my hulk/hawkeye/patch team that had a max level spidey in it (hint: every single one).

With this (awesome!) change I can actually look at another PvP team and not be instantly annoyed prior to entering the match. Now the stun will actually be worth it's "weight" in cost, which is now good both for the player and the game, as it will incur strategic use than spam using it for an instant lockdown.

I focus on the stun the most because this is perceived to be the most infuriating change, but overall, I love what they did to him. Morally, I can now use him and not feel **** about it.

His defensive abilities are still solid, but the game is overwhelmingly in favor of offense as long as Magneto/The Hood/OBW are around. Defensive abilities simply cannot compete against offensive abilities with AP pump abilities. If you start with 30 blue AP for ATU that might let you put up a few 200 strength Spider-Sense web tiles which might shave 1-2K damage over the duration of the match. If you start with 30 green, the game likely won't get past the first turn if you have Thor. Since Spiderman is all defense he suffers most from the offense-defense imbalance. You cannot have preemptive defense/healing so it just gets wasted, while no such problem exists for offense.

Unknown

Chimaera wrote:

Toxicadam do you like playing against 212 pre-nerf Spiderman every round? I just stopped playing, id rather do anything else. Just yesterday I was at 242 points in a lightning round and needed to do one match for a recruit token, skipped into iso loss looking for an non spider team, spoiler alert, I shut the game off rather than play a match.

Slow games make for boring games, boring games which can be very frustrating. I don't play those games.

Spidey was only slow when you played him on offense. On defense he's just another block of 5000 HP's, you have to move through that occassionally would stun. Minor nuisance.

As far as you seeing him too much, that can happen when you top out in tournaments and hit an MMR bubble. My personal bane is the Punisher/OBW teams I have to fight constantly. Spidey's overuse was especially pronounced due to his impending nerf. I know I have used him a lot more in the past 3 days than I had in the past 2 weeks.

Unknown

Toxicadam wrote:

Chimaera wrote:

Toxicadam do you like playing against 212 pre-nerf Spiderman every round? I just stopped playing, id rather do anything else. Just yesterday I was at 242 points in a lightning round and needed to do one match for a recruit token, skipped into iso loss looking for an non spider team, spoiler alert, I shut the game off rather than play a match.

Slow games make for boring games, boring games which can be very frustrating. I don't play those games.

Spidey was only slow when you played him on offense. On defense he's just another block of 5000 HP's, you have to move through that occassionally would stun. Minor nuisance.

As far as you seeing him too much, that can happen when you top out in tournaments and hit an MMR bubble. My personal bane is the Punisher/OBW teams I have to fight constantly. Spidey's overuse was especially pronounced due to his impending nerf. I know I have used him a lot more in the past 3 days than I had in the past 2 weeks.

Spiderman's problem goes outside the game. It's not that he was ever hard to beat. It's that Spiderman you squashed for 30 points is always going to come back and collect 30 points later. He's by far the character most responsible for wasting everyone's time, because your wins with Spiderman really didn't give you an edge as you'll always lose to another human with Spiderman (Spiderman autowins against Spiderman), but it sure keeps you running in circles for a very long time. Consider how much people complain about burnouts, you'd think people would love not to get smacked for 45 points by a Spiderman/Magneto MN team that has literally no offensive power but can still can defeat the strongest team in the game.

trewiltrewil

IceIX wrote:

gamar wrote:

People buy slots when they need space for a new character. Getting a new hero already feels "impactful," and any slot that doesn't have a hero in it is just wasted spending.

I'm guessing your metrics showed a significant amount of players stopping at 11 or 14 roster slots? Come on, I understand that grouping roster slots is a change that will likely get d3p a little more revenue while having little to no negative impact on the majority of players but don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining.

Actually, we're expecting this change to have a minor *negative* affect on revenue. One of the major reasons we made this change is so that players don't get into the mindset that 1.99 purchases are the way to move forward in the game. It works, but it's not at all efficient. We get quite a lot of reports from players that we nickle and dime them early on in the game but feel forced to pay anyway and almost invariably, they are players that spent 20 bucks in 1.99 purchases when 15 in 5s and a bit of saving some HP in the same amount of playtime would have served that player *much* better. There's something psychological about getting into a rut in spending on the same pack over and over because it's familiar. We want to lessen that impact some. At the same time, eliminating the 1.99 purchase altogether not only sends the wrong message (lesser paying players need not apply) but also doesn't account for those users that *do* spend a tiny bit here and there.

I just wanted to say thank you, that was the most eloquent description I have ever read on this board. <Troll Hat> In times of fire raining from the sky </Troll Hat> I thought a good word may help

trewiltrewil

IceIX wrote:

gamar wrote:

People buy slots when they need space for a new character. Getting a new hero already feels "impactful," and any slot that doesn't have a hero in it is just wasted spending.

I'm guessing your metrics showed a significant amount of players stopping at 11 or 14 roster slots? Come on, I understand that grouping roster slots is a change that will likely get d3p a little more revenue while having little to no negative impact on the majority of players but don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining.

Actually, we're expecting this change to have a minor *negative* affect on revenue. One of the major reasons we made this change is so that players don't get into the mindset that 1.99 purchases are the way to move forward in the game. It works, but it's not at all efficient. We get quite a lot of reports from players that we nickle and dime them early on in the game but feel forced to pay anyway and almost invariably, they are players that spent 20 bucks in 1.99 purchases when 15 in 5s and a bit of saving some HP in the same amount of playtime would have served that player *much* better. There's something psychological about getting into a rut in spending on the same pack over and over because it's familiar. We want to lessen that impact some. At the same time, eliminating the 1.99 purchase altogether not only sends the wrong message (lesser paying players need not apply) but also doesn't account for those users that *do* spend a tiny bit here and there.

I just wanted to say thank you, that was the most eloquent description I have ever read on this board. <Troll Hat> In times of fire raining from the sky </Troll Hat> I thought a good word may help

Unknown

Phantron wrote:

Skyedyne wrote:

On the whole, I don't see this as being as bad a nerf as it appears. I believe that it's unfair to compare single skills to other single skills out there. It's the set of skills that make a character, not each individual one.

In this aspect, I see him more as a defensive punisher in that he may not be exceptional anymore in any one ability (happy happy dance time for me! Ahem!) , but with all three defensive skills he could be very good on defense. I also firmly believe that once some of the knee jerk reaction dies down that a place in the team can be found, even if that may mean he gets matched with other 3* characters not immediately available to a player.

On his own, his 2 ap stun was OP at worst, and downright infuriating at best dependant on which side of the court you were on. The fact that the (argueably) most potent ability in the game was available to him on demand essentially made defense moot. I cannot begin to tell you how many retals I encountered with my hulk/hawkeye/patch team that had a max level spidey in it (hint: every single one).

With this (awesome!) change I can actually look at another PvP team and not be instantly annoyed prior to entering the match. Now the stun will actually be worth it's "weight" in cost, which is now good both for the player and the game, as it will incur strategic use than spam using it for an instant lockdown.

I focus on the stun the most because this is perceived to be the most infuriating change, but overall, I love what they did to him. Morally, I can now use him and not feel **** about it.

His defensive abilities are still solid, but the game is overwhelmingly in favor of offense as long as Magneto/The Hood/OBW are around. Defensive abilities simply cannot compete against offensive abilities with AP pump abilities. If you start with 30 blue AP for ATU that might let you put up a few 200 strength Spider-Sense web tiles which might shave 1-2K damage over the duration of the match. If you start with 30 green, the game likely won't get past the first turn if you have Thor. Since Spiderman is all defense he suffers most from the offense-defense imbalance. You cannot have preemptive defense/healing so it just gets wasted, while no such problem exists for offense.

And this is the exact reason why this change was good. Because making the stun comparably as strong as it was prior to the change, I.e. making it cost 6 blue for an instant 3 turn stun, wouldn't have done anything except kept him an offensive monster.

As each of his skills is defensive in nature, there was absolutely no reason that he should have been equally as strong, if not more so, on offense. At least this change keeps him in line of the thought of him being a big deal on defense, while keeping him away from the "abuse" of using him as an offensive stunlock.

As the direction of the game gets more balanced out, I have seen defense begin to play a bigger and bigger part of PvP. Much like they intended it to be back in the baby days of the game. Granted, speed killed several months ago, but by drawing out battles (which spidey is exceptional at), it's beginning to give defense a more appropriate chance to do its end of the bargain.

I have seen a good portion of my points now officially coming from defensive wins with the aforementioned team, and with this change, I would expect to see more, or plenty of skips.

Given that you cannot start a match with full ap of one color, isn't that example taking it a bit to the extreme?

Let's say for 12 yellow (which is spidey heal) and 12 green (which can encompass plenty of green users).

A 2.1k heal (numbers right, iirc) completely negates any damage that patch, hulk, punisher deals (3 very liked characters atm) and negates the damage done to the two back characters and removes half the damage done to the front character for another green match for thor (4k to target, 2k to remaining targets rounded up).

Given that a human player has a certain predilection for going after certain colors, it becomes more likely that you damage and then the AI Spidey heals, not the other way around.

But, like I stated prior, it's not a single skill that makes a character, but their collection, and his skill set is making it so that defense becomes more of a problem, regardless of the offense/defense skew, because they are attempting to make it so that defense is actually meaningful, and doing a good job at it now.

This is why these changes are good, both for the player and the game. And I still stand by my initial statement.