Patch Notes 5/21 Discussion (Inc Spider-Man)

IceIX

wathombe wrote:

Hey, Ice, while your posting, can you give us any indication of when Classic Daken will be added to the heroic tokens?

Generally in the past it's been 3-4 weeks between release and inclusion in various Tokens. Falcon was sped up due to some other internal reasons, so that was the exception rather than the rule. I would say that you can expect a couple weeks at the least, but there's a non-zero chance that we'll pop him out to Comic Packs early. I know that that's somewhat of a Magic 8-Ball answer, but it's the simple truth at this moment.

Unknown

IceIX wrote:

wathombe wrote:

Hey, Ice, while your posting, can you give us any indication of when Classic Daken will be added to the heroic tokens?

Generally in the past it's been 3-4 weeks between release and inclusion in various Tokens. Falcon was sped up due to some other internal reasons, so that was the exception rather than the rule. I would say that you can expect a couple weeks at the least, but there's a non-zero chance that we'll pop him out to Comic Packs early. I know that that's somewhat of a Magic 8-Ball answer, but it's the simple truth at this moment.

awwwww.

Unknown

IceIX wrote:

As for my absence, just been busy lately. As much as I'd like to pour more time into chatting/keeping up communication with you all, this is one of my many hats and I can't wear it all the time.

We all understand that you have other job duties outside of the forums.

However, that being said, considering that this is one of the most wildly popular games at the moment, and one of the upper grossing, would it be too much to ask that the company hire a liaison to connect with the user base, at the very least, part-time? The communication level of D3 with the consumers is one of the worst that I have ever seen. I have spent the last 20 years of my life managing different kinds of Customer Service industries. And as a consumer of your product, I expect better communication. By reading through the forums, the sentiment is very clear. YOU ARE NOT LOSING CUSTOMERS BECAUSE YOU NERFED SPIDEY. (Well, maybe a few) YOU ARE LOSING CUSTOMERS BECAUSE WE FEEL DISRESPECTED DUE TO THE LACK OF COMMUNICATION. (Not yelling, I promise. Using all caps to highlight my point.)

We expect nerfs. We expect changes in the game (we may not always agree, but we expect them). We all know that the game is still growing with content and needs changes to keep people interested and engaged. And we all acknowledge that your company has a right to make money off of the game. Most of us are willing to spend money, if we didn't feel that doing so would be in vain. But we feel like we don't matter. If you are really reading all the post here, you know all of this, and yet, you have made no gesture to calm and heal the feelings of disrespect and hurt that we are feeling in the community. Nor has anyone else from your company. We DO NOT want free tokens. We DO NOT want free HP or ISO. (Most of us) We DO want communication that we are not getting. And I truly don't understand that from a business side of things. We are your biggest fans and supporters. We take the time to come to the forums, make suggestions, help new players get into the game. We truly care about MPQ and the community here and want to see it succeed.

Unknown

aaronschmiz wrote:

IceIX wrote:

As for my absence, just been busy lately. As much as I'd like to pour more time into chatting/keeping up communication with you all, this is one of my many hats and I can't wear it all the time.

We all understand that you have other job duties outside of the forums.

However, that being said, considering that this is one of the most wildly popular games at the moment, and one of the upper grossing, would it be too much to ask that the company hire a liaison to connect with the user base, at the very least, part-time? The communication level of D3 with the consumers is one of the worst that I have ever seen. I have spent the last 20 years of my life managing different kinds of Customer Service industries. And as a consumer of your product, I expect better communication. By reading through the forums, the sentiment is very clear. YOU ARE NOT LOSING CUSTOMERS BECAUSE YOU NERFED SPIDEY. (Well, maybe a few) YOU ARE LOSING CUSTOMERS BECAUSE WE FEEL DISRESPECTED DUE TO THE LACK OF COMMUNICATION. (Not yelling, I promise. Using all caps to highlight my point.)

We expect nerfs. We expect changes in the game (we may not always agree, but we expect them). We all know that the game is still growing with content and needs changes to keep people interested and engaged. And we all acknowledge that your company has a right to make money off of the game. Most of us are willing to spend money, if we didn't feel that doing so would be in vain. But we feel like we don't matter. If you are really reading all the post here, you know all of this, and yet, you have made no gesture to calm and heal the feelings of disrespect and hurt that we are feeling in the community. Nor has anyone else from your company. We don't want free tokens. We don't want free HP or ISO. We mostly want communication that we are not getting. And I truly don't understand that from a business side of things. We are your biggest fans and supporters. We take the time to come to the forums, make suggestions, help new players get into the game. We truly care about MPQ and the community here and want to see it succeed.

I did try to rate this post positive, but seems to not accept that, so I will chime in in agreeance. Even if I do think the Spidey nerf makes him utterly useless in the role he had before the nerf.

Unknown

IceIX wrote:

wathombe wrote:

Hey, Ice, while your posting, can you give us any indication of when Classic Daken will be added to the heroic tokens?

Generally in the past it's been 3-4 weeks between release and inclusion in various Tokens. Falcon was sped up due to some other internal reasons, so that was the exception rather than the rule. I would say that you can expect a couple weeks at the least, but there's a non-zero chance that we'll pop him out to Comic Packs early. I know that that's somewhat of a Magic 8-Ball answer, but it's the simple truth at this moment.

Thanks very much for giving us a ballpark!

Unknown

MikeyMan wrote:

Clintman wrote:

I dont know if anyone checked Spideys Resale value:

141 Spiderman
86,381 ISO
1500 HP

Not worth it. He still ok...

Any comment about this, Ice? If I'm not mistaken, I could sell my thorverine for much more when they got nerfed before
Not that I'm gonna sell my Parker, but this is just unfair

Unknown

It's ironic that people now say that the Thorverine nerf was well done, but the spidey nerf is ****, because I remember what people were saying when the Thorverine nerfs hit. Then people played with the new Thor. Then they said he was pretty good.

I'm still waiting for people to play with the new Spiderman. Then hopefully the mania will die down a bit.

I'm starting to feel a bit like WalkYourPath (admittedly, I'd be the Ragnarok-nerfed version of WalkYourPath). I'm frustrated by the near-unceasing negativity being expressed by entitled forum-goers. Maybe these forums aren't fun anymore.

mohio

I don't have a usable spiderman, so this is purely from an opponent's perspective.

I just don't fear spiderman in the least. In a way he's like 2* daken, you can almost completely ignore him until the end because he cannot really kill you on his own. Sure you might want to make sure you're not feeding him too many yellows (or killing his mates fast enough so it doesn't matter) and you might eliminate a defense tile here or there if you can use purple or make a cascade, but for the most part, you can just leave him for last and he does next to nothing. Previously I would target spiderman before any other hero simply because his stun could get out of hand if he matches blue just twice (and god forbid any cascades - at least the AI is bad enough to let you have a turn usually) so this is a drastic turn-around (again, purely from an opponent's perspective).

Unknown

IceIX wrote:

kermitk50 wrote:

Finally Ice emerges!

My fear is that from all of this anger on the boards over the last week or two, what will be taken from it is "they are just complaining about the Spidey nerf, they will get used to it". I want to make sure it is known that the spidey nerf is possibly the least of the issues that are plaguing players right now.

I don't have any information to give on the other stuff at the moment. But I will definitely most assuredly say that we are by no means sitting here thinking that all the rage is over Spider-Man and nothing else.

As for my absence, just been busy lately. As much as I'd like to pour more time into chatting/keeping up communication with you all, this is one of my many hats and I can't wear it all the time.

I absolutely understand that this is not your job, just one of the things you do and it is not an anger at you where my frustration comes from. In fact, you are the ONLY means of communication we really have from the devs and your company as a whole which keeps you very soldly on the good side of most every single person here on these boards. I think that is the entire problem - should should not be the only person who interacts with the player base. BECAUSE you are the only person that interacts with us (and you arent even a dedicated community manager) is why we all love you so much here . You posting here shows that at least someone cares over there.

But like you said, you have other responsibilities. But doesnt everyone at your company? Why cant the other devs, PMs, leads, designers, etc make a point to pitch in and interact with the players. More people interacting with us makes us feel like we are being listened to - we KNOW you read a thread only when you respond in it. Other than that we dont know if we are just posting to no one or if we are being heard.

Having the other members of your company post is a simple way to spread the burden over multiple people if you cant get approval for the hiring of a community manager or two. Obviously dedicated community managers would be best, but is it really too much to ask a dev to hop on and interact with the customers of the product he is creating? Just 15 minutes a day is hardly noticeable from a work schedule and is plenty of time to post on a few threads, showing us your ideas and opinions on what we are saying. It would go a long way towards improving the general attitudes here on the boards.

DD-The-Mighty

dlaw008 wrote:

It's ironic that people now say that the Thorverine nerf was well done, but the spidey nerf is ****, because I remember what people were saying when the Thorverine nerfs hit. Then people played with the new Thor. Then they said he was pretty good.

I'm still waiting for people to play with the new Spiderman. Then hopefully the mania will die down a bit.

I'm starting to feel a bit like WalkYourPath (admittedly, I'd be the Ragnarok-nerfed version of WalkYourPath). I'm frustrated by the near-unceasing negativity being expressed by entitled forum-goers. Maybe these forums aren't fun anymore.

I like part where you left out everyone being right about 2* wolverine being a shallow imitation of himself. And most keen readers could see how well Thor was going to be when they all saw his whopping 9 green tile bump on yellow into his massively boosted Green damage. Thor was a re shift of power band; wolverine was a significant neutering to 2/3 of his best moves. But hey whatever makes for an stronger retort.

Maybe try reading a nice book, or going for a good long walk. Those work wonders for releasing pent up frustration. Also complaining about the complainers works too. Maybe these forums aren't fun anymore.

Unknown

UncleSam wrote:

IceIX wrote:

We don't comment on every thread, nor have we ever done so. That does not mean that we don't read feedback on these forums by any means. In this particular case, we read the feedback on the changes and determined that the best thing to do was to move forward with our proposed changes. Even *if* we were to take any one of the ideas fully on board, we have (and I'm sure you'll agree) waited for quite a while to get Spider-Man in a more manageable position. Taking on any other changes at this point would just delay things further. That's also assuming that those changes wouldn't *also* be disliked for reasons A/B/C.

Ice, I used to support you, but this is baloney. There was plenty of feedback on Spiderman even before it was announced he would be funbalanced. Here's a thought for your company. Why not publish those changes here to the community for feedback before ever scheduling the change. Many of us play your game way more than any of you guys do so we have a pretty good idea of how abilities will play out. We accepted Bagman because he's a joke character anyway, but you killed Spidey. If you turnaround and release a Gold Spidey in the next month or so with a superior skillset I will be very disappointed.

Quoting for posterity, in case this happens. Like Thor, Spidey is incredibly popular (#1 in all of comics). So just like Thor, Spidey getting the Lazy treatment would not be at all surprising.

Unknown

dlaw008 wrote:

It's ironic that people now say that the Thorverine nerf was well done, but the spidey nerf is ****, because I remember what people were saying when the Thorverine nerfs hit. Then people played with the new Thor. Then they said he was pretty good.

I'm still waiting for people to play with the new Spiderman. Then hopefully the mania will die down a bit.

I'm starting to feel a bit like WalkYourPath (admittedly, I'd be the Ragnarok-nerfed version of WalkYourPath). I'm frustrated by the near-unceasing negativity being expressed by entitled forum-goers. Maybe these forums aren't fun anymore.

I don't think this is true. A lot of people were against Wolvie from the start, but the general consensus as I remember it was that Thor was different and not worse. And, by the by, I don't have to play with 50% of Spiderman to know he sucks, because I've been playing the game since October, can read, and possess the power of abstract reasoning.

That being said, I did end up playing with him in a lightning round earlier before I knew he'd been nerfed. I almost got wiped out, because I thought my abilities were still abilities and didn't plan accordingly.

Unknown

kermitk50 wrote:

Finally Ice emerges!

My fear is that from all of this anger on the boards over the last week or two, what will be taken from it is "they are just complaining about the Spidey nerf, they will get used to it". I want to make sure it is known that the spidey nerf is possibly the least of the issues that are plaguing players right now. I dont mind the spidey nerf, sounds fine to me, and I think that people are going overboard about it. However the issues regarding a lack of communication during some recent complaints people have been having with bracketing, MMR, scaling, and the feeling of burnout among the players here has been disheartening. The more these issues go unresolved (or at least un-communicated), the more your player base here at the forums will turn negative. Give us a bone and let us REALLY know how things are happening, conversations happening over there, and how you guys are moving to fix the repetition and burnout and scaling. There have been numerous great ideas regarding how to fix these things, and no word about anything. In fact, even keeping the alterations done a secret, instead of (like many highly competitive games like WoW) releasing how the mechanics work so the top tier of players know how to compete without relying on figuring out a new system every single event.

Lack of communication has always been a serious issue. I was complaining about it back in December and nothing has changed. This is how I've come to rationalize this phenomenon: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=7483&p=142077#p142077

Twysta

After playing with Spidey a bit in LR's.
His yellow feels alright.
But his blue and purple feel horrible now.

Unknown

dlaw008 wrote:

It's ironic that people now say that the Thorverine nerf was well done, but the spidey nerf is ****, because I remember what people were saying when the Thorverine nerfs hit. Then people played with the new Thor. Then they said he was pretty good.

Guess your memory is filtered -- at the time a plenty of posts said the change is reasonable and the characters are useful -- especially thor; for wolvie there was uniform agreement only on yellow is useless. (and practice showed it really is not so, though could be way better.

For spidey many people said they like the nerf for a *single* reason they want to get rid of him -- while I recall not a single post stating he is actually useful for anything. Except the official statement from IceIX that is.

It is a substantial difference. Everyone agrees this spiderman is just bagman with extra star, only some like the fall.

dlaw008 wrote:

I'm still waiting for people to play with the new Spiderman. Then hopefully the mania will die down a bit.

You say we need playtest to see hi actually sucks as badly as looks? We DID playtest 2/2/x spiderman. That is way stronger than the current. We saw him suck and you hardly ever seen him used anywhere. The change is not now, not different in actual work, just simple numbers that is easy to evaluate in head, and easy to compare against existing stuff that was tested too.

The claim of players not having experience is pure bullocks and from devs is really insulting when it is so evident they not play a percent time of quite anyone here. And showed their ignorance on all too many ways.

dlaw008 wrote:

I'm starting to feel a bit like WalkYourPath (admittedly, I'd be the Ragnarok-nerfed version of WalkYourPath). I'm frustrated by the near-unceasing negativity being expressed by entitled forum-goers. Maybe these forums aren't fun anymore.

The negativity could have been avoided pretty easily on several paths. It wasn't. This is a **** sandwich, of course those who are to swallow it are not happy at all.

Unknown

I am going to give few perspectives here.

When I was a fledgling mpq player discovering lightning rounds and grinding them for iso with my 20 mbw 20 cstorm featured villan the second I encountered rags other than the default one I got absolutely mauled. While I was not the target audience for lightning rounds at that time I have a very competitive mindset and could see the level 25 rags was devastating and literally broken. And you cannot argue that his old skills were broken good, thats why they were changed. I applauded the dev's nerf when it hit, it opened doors not closed them. I know they made the skills a little too weak but I don't hate Godlike like most people seem to, I think its a very viable skill, maybe because it constantly cascades against me and rarely for me. The issue with him is not the nerf but the two mid level strengths on the tiles and a missing third skill but he had to be put in his place and mpq had to have gained players and momentum because of it regardless who got burned by the nerfs.

The Spidey nerf. Well from when the nerf list was posted I decided to not put in any viable amounts of iso into him and to this day he is still at 30 and my second lowest 3* (heyo DD). I had to use OBW for longer deep into three star territory but I moved into patch and cmags combo (a different issue). Playing against OBW can be devastating but the low hp keeps it in check. Playing against spidey was possibly one of the most frustrating things I had to do in this game. His skills are so cheap or free and he slows the game down so much, in an environment that requires speed this is an absolute killer. If he ever cascades and gets you in stunlock despite your best efforts (you know the games) you feel like shutting your phone off and giving up. I want to be in control of my characters and that was not fun.

Everyone can agree that he allowed players half your level in pvp to snipe your teams, teams who had to business beating you. Beat a spiderman team and just wait for the retal, because its coming. I found this incredibly wearing and avoided those teams just because of it. Now I am forced to play against them all the time due to MMR (another different issue). These changes needed to happen and whining about getting the old spidey back is insane and literally the wrong thing to want. I have only played a few random lightning round matches since the changes went live and while I am not the one to use spidey his blue is still easy to get its just not an I win next game button and it will never be. I actually did not hate my life when three purples got on the board and spidey matched a blue. And that is good for the game. Healing is the most powerful thing in the game because it gives you free hero points every activation.

Once they ruin cmags I will probably not be happy but it will need to be done. However this is the last vestige of recurring low risk repeatable damage left in the game. Which is going to expose the health pack system. That will literally need to be reworked and I hope D3 is looking at that. Spiderman was inflating the points out there in PvP and I suspect there is going to be a noticeable difference now. Most people will no longer be able to play constantly any longer and that is something D3 needs to be worried about.

I am going to leave the comment I have posted once before that that all damage should be healed automatically after each match and health packs revive downed characters, thats all. This may not be the place but this will need to change very soon. you cant expect 141 means to fight other 141 teams and use the same limiter that the low level fast healing teams do. The health regen rate could also change based on percentage, that is viable.

But tldr, the rags nerf was necessary for the game to progress, just as the spidey nerf is, has to happen. Stop complaining.

Oh as a ftp the cover slot system change probably would have made me quit the game at that point. I made it through not selling any three stars but you cant do that now. Its a clear paywall.

Unknown

Twysta wrote:

After playing with Spidey a bit in LR's.
His yellow feels alright.
But his blue and purple feel horrible now.

In LR he is pretty boosted.

Phantron wrote a plenty of rundowns -- in regular game healup is part of the victory roll so not that much important if skipped of leaves some wounds.

In prologue healing the difference is as drastic as predicted. just try to heal up a max hulk or LT from 500 and compare the time and effort with the current. I'm sure the major part of agenda was exactly this.

DD-The-Mighty

Chimaera wrote:

I am going to give few perspectives here.

~SNIP

But tldr, the rags nerf was necessary for the game to progress, just as the spidey nerf is, has to happen. Stop complaining.

Oh as a ftp the cover slot system change probably would have made me quit the game at that point. I made it through not selling any three stars but you cant do that now. Its a clear paywall.

Cool story bro.
Who's asking for old Spidey back? EVERYONE (with sense) agrees that he could not stay as he was, he was single handlely screwing with the 3* metagame. Most of the posters here are commenting how now he is not working well as he is now. Functional, but he really could be ALOT better, befitting of his 3* status and pain in the butt aquisition.

but no, please tell us more borderline, off topic, long winded, stories that end in the tried and true "deal wit it bruh" response.

Unknown

Twysta wrote:

After playing with Spidey a bit in LR's.
His yellow feels alright.
But his blue and purple feel horrible now.

This is my assessment after the day as well.

Unknown

DD-The-Mighty wrote:

Chimaera wrote:

I am going to give few perspectives here.

~SNIP

But tldr, the rags nerf was necessary for the game to progress, just as the spidey nerf is, has to happen. Stop complaining.

Oh as a ftp the cover slot system change probably would have made me quit the game at that point. I made it through not selling any three stars but you cant do that now. Its a clear paywall.

Cool story bro.
Who's asking for old Spidey back? EVERYONE (with sense) agrees that he could not stay as he was, he was single handlely screwing with the 3* metagame. Most of the posters here are commenting how now he is not working well as he is now. Functional, but he really could be ALOT better, befitting of his 3* status and pain in the butt aquisition.

but no, please tell us more borderline, off topic, long winded, stories that end in the tried and true "deal wit it bruh" response.

You want a short and to the point? You can balance something that gives you free hero points for 12 yellow and doesn't ruin the meta game? Sweet tell me how. The yellow seems fine, and you should be thankful thats what you get, because thats why he is worth running.

In most games I have played healing is either too good or garbage. D3 should have never allowed it to be in the game if they wanted to use a health pack system. Because it spits on their framework and its very hard to balance something that ruins the fundamentals of the game.