Patch Notes 5/21 Discussion (Inc Spider-Man)

IceIX

With Season One of Versus having ended and Season Two having begun, today is the day for Spider-Man (Classic) to get his long awaited changes. As previously listed here, his abilities are being modified to better bring the character into line with the power levels of other characters in the game. The changes are the same as in that post, but are reposted here for ease of viewing.

Gameplay

- Randomized available Environments on pins for Versus Events as opposed to previous static Environments for each pin. - Comic Slots have been reworked from Slots 8-24. Costs are unchanged, but these Slots have been grouped together for group purchases. The intent is to allow users to save for these Comic Slots while making the purchase of these bundles feel more impactful instead of piecemeal. The way this works is that if a user is about to push into one of these bundles, they will see a bundle instead of an individual purchase at that point. So a user at 8 slots will see a bundle for purchase when they want to go from 10 to 11 slots, but since they are already in the 8 slot bracket, they will buy individually until then. New groupings:

5th slot: 50 HP 6: 50 7: 100 8+9+10 slots purchased as a group: 400 HP 11+12+13: 500 14+15+16: 600 17+18: 500 19+20: 500 21+22: 600 23+24: 600 25 and beyond: as before

Characters

Spider-Man (Classic) Old Ability:

Web Bandages - Yellow 13 AP
Spider-Man makes make-shift slings of webbing for his friends. Removes all Web tiles, and all allies heal 118 health for every Web tile removed (minimum 118, maximum 1892).
Level Upgrades

Level 2: Costs 1 AP less. Level 3: Costs 1 AP less. Level 4: Costs 1 AP less. Level 5: Costs 1 AP less.

Max Level: Heals 741HP per web tile (up to 11864HP)

Updated Ability:

Web Bandages - Yellow 12 AP
Spider-Man webs makeshift slings, healing his team for 142. If 3 or more Web tiles exist he converts them to bandages, healing his team for an additional 149.
Level Upgrades

Level 2: Increases base healing to 199. Level 3: Increases base healing to 256. Level 4: Increases base healing to 312. Level 5: Increases base healing to 369. Max level 141 5/5: Heals for 2314 with an additional 934 with 3 Web tiles.[/u] Level 85 5/5: 1534 base healing + 619 with Web tiles = 2153 max healing Compare to Black Widow (Original) max level - 1228 healing

This ability went through the most changes in design. It went from a numbers tweaked version of its old self, which was either underpowered or overpowered solely based on how well it worked with All Tied Up. To remedy this, it went to an easier to balance self heal that threw out group heals if enough Web tiles on the board. This worked better but didn't feel very Spider-Man-like. In order for it to feel good enough to use, it had to be so powerful in the heal that Spider-Man felt more like Phoenix, rising from the ashes. Eventually, it morphed into the current form.

In this form, the ability is still somewhat of a high cost, so it's not a simple matter to throw out healing. This enables players to go into an AP denial mode against an opponent using Spider-Man and prevent them from easily healing the team. At the same time, it benefits from using All Tied Up without full on requiring the ability to be used multiple times in order to be useful. This allows players to feel like the ability is useful on its own without completely tying it to another ability that with its own changes makes it not a 100% relied upon source of power.

Older Ability:

All Tied Up - Blue 6 AP
Spider-Man wraps up the target in webbing, adding a new Yellow Web tile to the board and then stunning the enemy for 1 turn for each Web tile on the board (to a maximum of 5 turns).
Level Upgrades

Level 2: Costs 1 AP less. Level 3: Costs 1 AP less. Level 4: Costs 1 AP less. Level 5: Costs 1 AP less.

Updated Ability:

All Tied Up - Blue 5 AP
Spider-Man slings webs, stunning the enemy for 1 turn. He then adds a Yellow Web tile to the board.
Level Upgrades

Level 2: +1 turn of stun if 3 Web tiles exist Level 3: +1 turn of stun if 2 Web tiles exist Level 4: +1 turn of stun if 1 Web tile exists Level 5: +1 or +2 turns of stun when 1 or 2 Web tiles exist

This change is less extreme than the one to Web Bandages, but still serves to bring this ability into line with the other Stuns in the game. The ability remains low cost and able to quickly ramp up in effectiveness given the increasing number of Web tiles on the board. This encourages players to constantly use the power instead of hoarding it for a burst as it is often used at current. Each level of the ability now greatly adds to its utility, making Level 5 highly valuable in increasing the effectiveness of the ability. At that level, a three turn Stun and the low cost enables Spider-Man to keep up a perma-stun on the opponent with enough matches available, someone feeding Blue AP, or a cache of available Blue AP. So it's still a possibly powerful ability in the hands of a player/team that is geared to take advantage of it. However, unlike previously it does not allow Spider-Man to lock down an enemy for each and every Blue match that is made, often deciding the battle's course with a single Blue match.

Older Ability:

Spider-Sense - Purple Passive
(PASSIVE) Spider-Man's senses tingle and he moves to protect his team. If there aren't any friendly Purple Protect tiles, he creates one when his team matches Purple tiles. New Protect tile Strength is based on the number of Web tiles in play.
Level Upgrades

Level 2: Creates up to 2 Purple Protect tiles. Level 3: Increases base Protect Strength by 25% Level 4: Creates up to 3 Purple Protect tiles. Level 5: Increases base Protect Strength by 25%

Max Level: Damage reduced by 66 per Protect tile with 0 Web tiles on board (up to 446 per Protect tile with 5 Web tiles on board).

Updated Ability:

Spider-Sense - Purple Passive
(PASSIVE) Spider-Man's senses tingle and he moves to protect his team. If there aren't any friendly Purple Protect tiles, he creates one when his team matches Purple tiles. New Protect tile Strength is based on the number of Web tiles in play.
Level Upgrades

Level 2: Creates up to 2 Purple Protect tiles. Level 3: Increases base Protect Strength by 25% Level 4: Creates up to 3 Purple Protect tiles. Level 5: Increases base Protect Strength by 25%

Max Level 141 5/5: 20/54/115/210 Protect tiles depending on Web tiles on board.

This ability was untouched in form but the numbers were rebalanced a bit. The max number of Web tiles needed for this skill was reduced from 5 to 3 with the lower end of the Protect tile strengths being brought down as well. This makes the ability one that you want to start triggering Web tiles for immediately instead of just working with what you get, as the higher end Protect tiles can make a real difference. However, the top end for the old ability was a bit too high, allowing Spider-Man to make Protect tiles that rivaled the highest cost Protect oriented abilities, much less a Passive.

Unknown

Oh whoopy.

Unknown

Did anyone else see the brand new thread and have a glimmer of hope that they reworked the changes?

NorthernPolarity

Well... at least they nerfed him at a time that was fitting for a nerf? That's a big improvement from before at least.

Unknown

You can blame this one on me, guys. My Spider-Man was up to 5/3/2 and getting dangerously close to being usable.

Unknown

I don't like how the Dev's and staff pop in and do a David Copperfield lol

We just wanna talk...honestly


with pitchforks and hatred

Unknown

IceIX wrote:

- Comic Slots have been reworked from Slots 8-24. Costs are unchanged, but these Slots have been grouped together for group purchases. The intent is to allow users to save for these Comic Slots while making the purchase of these bundles feel more impactful instead of piecemeal.

People buy slots when they need space for a new character. Getting a new hero already feels "impactful," and any slot that doesn't have a hero in it is just wasted spending.

I'm guessing your metrics showed a significant amount of players stopping at 11 or 14 roster slots? Come on, I understand that grouping roster slots is a change that will likely get d3p a little more revenue while having little to no negative impact on the majority of players but don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining.

Nonce Equitaur 2

19 pages of thoughtful discussion and commentary are at Upcoming Character Change: Spider-Man (Classic).

Unknown

Comic Slots have been reworked from Slots 8-24. Costs are unchanged, but these Slots have been grouped together for group purchases. The intent is to allow users to save for these Comic Slots while making the purchase of these bundles feel more impactful instead of piecemeal.

More microtransactions and undermining f2p, yay!
Let me translate what this means: this change hits players right in that stage where new 3* and 2* covers are coming in quickly. Not unusual to have one or two or more pending, with time running out. However, good news - when buying individual slots you might be able to save up for one of them at least.150 HP is doable. Now... you'll either purchase hero Points or you'll give up all pending covers, because you won't make it to 400. Great. Thank you. I'm relieved I'm at slot 29 myself. I'm sorry for all my alliance mates who have not yet hit 25 and will now lose those covers for which they worked so hard (unless they pay up. Considering how annoyed the five of us have grown with the game lately - not happening.)

Unknown

Comic Slots have been reworked from Slots 8-24. Costs are unchanged, but these Slots have been grouped together for group purchases.

Wait, can slots still be bought individually from 8-24, or only bundled? Because if it's the latter, that represents a 200% increase in price.

Especially gross considering how paltry the HP rewards are in this game and how much pressure a new user faces in keeping one of the 20 3 star characters they have no use for, but are pressured into saving.

Eyris6

Carthl wrote:

Comic Slots have been reworked from Slots 8-24. Costs are unchanged, but these Slots have been grouped together for group purchases. The intent is to allow users to save for these Comic Slots while making the purchase of these bundles feel more impactful instead of piecemeal.

More microtransactions and undermining f2p, yay!
Let me translate what this means: this change hits players right in that stage where new 3* and 2* covers are coming in quickly. Not unusual to have one or two or more pending, with time running out. However, good news - when buying individual slots you might be able to save up for one of them at least.150 HP is doable. Now... you'll either purchase hero Points or you'll give up all pending covers, because you won't make it to 400. Great. Thank you. I'm relieved I'm at slot 29 myself. I'm sorry for all my alliance mates who have not yet hit 25 and will now lose those covers for which they worked so hard (unless they pay up. Considering how annoyed the five of us have grown with the game lately - not happening.)

Exactly. Getting a new 3* cover can already feel a bit like a punishment when you see how much HP you'll need to add it to your roster. This just makes it worse.

_RiO_

Carthl wrote:

Comic Slots have been reworked from Slots 8-24. Costs are unchanged, but these Slots have been grouped together for group purchases. The intent is to allow users to save for these Comic Slots while making the purchase of these bundles feel more impactful instead of piecemeal.

More microtransactions and undermining f2p, yay!
Let me translate what this means: this change hits players right in that stage where new 3* and 2* covers are coming in quickly. Not unusual to have one or two or more pending, with time running out. However, good news - when buying individual slots you might be able to save up for one of them at least.150 HP is doable. Now... you'll either purchase hero Points or you'll give up all pending covers, because you won't make it to 400. Great. Thank you. I'm relieved I'm at slot 29 myself. I'm sorry for all my alliance mates who have not yet hit 25 and will now lose those covers for which they worked so hard (unless they pay up. Considering how annoyed the five of us have grown with the game lately - not happening.)

QFT.

This change is the next in a long line of sickening changes to the game that are clearly put in for the sole reason of milking profits and rising to that oh so desired mythical 1$ ARPDAU.
The developer and publisher should atleast have the common decency to be honest about this, instead of continuing to put on such a downright disgusting spiel that it's all for the good of the game. Bah!

Unknown

Step 1 - randomize environments
Step 2 - fix **** environments such as city and Latveria (or whatever their called)

At least we are 1/2 way there on this 1. Wonder how far down the "back burners" step 2 is.

Unknown

Psykopathic wrote:

Step 1 - randomize environments
Step 2 - fix **** environments such as city and Latveria (or whatever their called)

At least we are 1/2 way there on this 1. Wonder how far down the "back burners" step 2 is.

I wonder how the randomizing will work. Is the environment locked in until you fight on it? Or will people be skipping battles until they get a desert node?

Unknown

Psykopathic wrote:

Step 1 - randomize environments
Step 2 - fix **** environments such as city and Latveria (or whatever their called)

At least we are 1/2 way there on this 1. Wonder how far down the "back burners" step 2 is.

You read my mind on that one.

It's only been an issue for 6 months now. No need to rush into it when there are more important things like making the Game Store have bigger, brighter picture with more lens flare.

Unknown

Psykopathic wrote:

Step 1 - randomize environments
Step 2 - fix **** environments such as city and Latveria (or whatever their called)

At least we are 1/2 way there on this 1. Wonder how far down the "back burners" step 2 is.

This at least solves the problem of 'always/never play on desert/forest' depending on who you're running. It's pretty much always if you have GSBW, Punisher, Magneto, BP, or The Hood, and never if you're not using those characters.

IceIX

Nonce Equitaur 2 wrote:

19 pages of thoughtful discussion and commentary are at Upcoming Character Change: Spider-Man (Classic).

Well, not *all* the posts there are thoughtful, but understand what you're saying. We've gone through that whole thread and are moving ahead as planned. That doesn't mean that further comments and suggestions aren't discussed, or that further changes may not be made.

Unknown

Phantron wrote:

Psykopathic wrote:

Step 1 - randomize environments
Step 2 - fix **** environments such as city and Latveria (or whatever their called)

At least we are 1/2 way there on this 1. Wonder how far down the "back burners" step 2 is.

This at least solves the problem of 'always/never play on desert/forest' depending on who you're running. It's pretty much always if you have GSBW, Punisher, Magneto, BP, or The Hood, and never if you're not using those characters.

Or, y'know, Thor.

In fact, always play on desert if any of your characters has a green ability or is Daken. Always play on jungle otherwise

IceIX

gamar wrote:

People buy slots when they need space for a new character. Getting a new hero already feels "impactful," and any slot that doesn't have a hero in it is just wasted spending.

I'm guessing your metrics showed a significant amount of players stopping at 11 or 14 roster slots? Come on, I understand that grouping roster slots is a change that will likely get d3p a little more revenue while having little to no negative impact on the majority of players but don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining.

Actually, we're expecting this change to have a minor *negative* affect on revenue. One of the major reasons we made this change is so that players don't get into the mindset that 1.99 purchases are the way to move forward in the game. It works, but it's not at all efficient. We get quite a lot of reports from players that we nickle and dime them early on in the game but feel forced to pay anyway and almost invariably, they are players that spent 20 bucks in 1.99 purchases when 15 in 5s and a bit of saving some HP in the same amount of playtime would have served that player *much* better. There's something psychological about getting into a rut in spending on the same pack over and over because it's familiar. We want to lessen that impact some. At the same time, eliminating the 1.99 purchase altogether not only sends the wrong message (lesser paying players need not apply) but also doesn't account for those users that *do* spend a tiny bit here and there.

Unknown

gamar wrote:

Phantron wrote:

Psykopathic wrote:

Step 1 - randomize environments
Step 2 - fix **** environments such as city and Latveria (or whatever their called)

At least we are 1/2 way there on this 1. Wonder how far down the "back burners" step 2 is.

This at least solves the problem of 'always/never play on desert/forest' depending on who you're running. It's pretty much always if you have GSBW, Punisher, Magneto, BP, or The Hood, and never if you're not using those characters.

Or, y'know, Thor.

In fact, always play on desert if any of your characters has a green ability or is Daken. Always play on jungle otherwise

Thor is only 3 environmental damage so even though he benefits immensely from desert, it'd not be adviseable to play on that environment if your other two characters are not one of the aforementioned characters. Magneto creates crit tiles. GSBW/Punisher are 4 environmental damage and 4X crit mod (highest combo in game). BP is second highest (4/3.5X), and The Hood is third at (3/4.5X). If your entire team is 3/3X and they have say, Punisher, you're actually playing at a very significant disadvantage. Spiderman is 4/3X, but is likely no longer a top tier character after today's Patch.

NorthernPolarity

IceIX wrote:

Nonce Equitaur 2 wrote:

19 pages of thoughtful discussion and commentary are at Upcoming Character Change: Spider-Man (Classic).

Well, not *all* the posts there are thoughtful, but understand what you're saying. We've gone through that whole thread and are moving ahead as planned. That doesn't mean that further comments and suggestions aren't discussed, or that further changes may not be made.

Random thought: Ragnarok was nerfed a while back, and I'm guessing that its safe to say that his nerfs were overdone. I'm curious about the usage statistics of the character post-nerf: has his usage plummeted post nerfs (with the exception of tournaments that feature him),and are you guys going to take this into account when considering future balancing decisions? I would hope that this data clearly indicates how relevant each character remains in the current metagame and whether or not further balancing changes need to be considered. If you see players all of the sudden never using Spidey, are you going to consider rebuffing him to a more reasonable power level? I am of course asking if you're going to do this within a reasonable timeframe: 4 months was a bit much for fixing an absurdly overpowered character like Spidey.