New Feature in R191: Shards

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  • ZootSax
    ZootSax Posts: 1,819 Chairperson of the Boards
    tiomono said:
    HoundofShadow said:
    Based on what the devs said, a ton of players are actually doing things differently from you guys. They will leave the BH with those characters that they've chosen. I think that's the difference between completionist ans/or players focused on maximising resources and casual players.

    I doubt they are going to roll back targeted shards. Their new monetization plan will be rolled out. The best case scenario for you guys is trading your shards for other shards at a discount or you pay a premium for wildcard shards. Instead of 500, you might need 600 to 800 shards for 5* instead. Are you guys fine with it?

    Some of you have been playing for years and I'm sure you can read their minds better than I do. If wildcard shard is going to be created for this group of players, prepare for tradeoff lIke those mentioned above. I think it would be better to deal with this type of reality, rather than expecting the devs to remove targeted shards totally or give you 1 to 1 shards exchange. After all, it took them 3 - 4 years to implement "colourless" cover.
    I just want to say I appreciate your input hound. You often try to look at things from the standpoint of the game creators and rationalize the game from that perspective.

    Even if I dont always agree with your views I value them. I just wish more people could agree with you and not treat it like some bad karma to say they agree with you. Which seems to be popular on the forums for whatever reason. I have rarely seen such ill will toward a person that is just expressing their viewpoint, and you remain very rational and rarely insult back that I have seen. 

    Keep on keeping on.
    Yeah, this is very true.  I admit I've taken my shots at Hound in other threads, but his/her comments in advice threads are usually on-point and particularly in announcement threads someone does need to carry the banner for waiting until the actual implementation before burning the world down. :)
  • Godzillafan67
    Godzillafan67 Posts: 580 Critical Contributor
    I believe that the subjective objection to this new mechanic is the scenario of an opportunity cost leading to opportunity loss. Let's examine the two scenarios. 

    Setup
    Both Kitty and Wasp need one more cover to champ, but I decide to champ Wasp because I have heard some good things on this forum about CALL THE SWARM, and I can only currently Call the Swarm in proper case. So, i bonus/target Wasp and no other heroes and set about cracking open my classic legendaries.

    Bonus Heroes
    After 90 cracks with no bonus heroes (worst case scenario), lo and behold that exact Wasp cover I needed! I now unbonus Wasp and bonus Kitty in her stead.

    Target Heroes
    After 90 cracks, lo and behold that exact Wasp cover I needed! I now untarget Wasp and target Kitty in her stead.

    My Reaction
    Should I be happy or sad? I think that everyone agrees that under the BH system I'm happy; it's the TH system where some believe that I should feel sad because I've wasted the opportunity for accumulating shards for Kitty since I ended up getting that Wasp cover.

    Notice, however, that in both scenarios I've gained the thing I was trying for, except that in TH I've also accumulated Wasp shards -- no use for me now but maybe somewhere down the line. In fact, in my new pursuit of that Kitty cover, I'm back to equal opportunity in BH vs TH.

    The Objective Objection
    As the math shows, this shard system will net you fewer covers compared to the expected return from BH. We've been told that alternate means of non-HP shard accumulation will exist, but that may only come Soon(tm).
  • Dogface
    Dogface Posts: 986 Critical Contributor


    Bonus Heroes
    After 90 cracks with no bonus heroes (worst case scenario), lo and behold that exact Wasp cover I needed! I now unbonus Wasp and bonus Kitty in her stead.


    Or lo and behold you get just the cover you didn't need, which is twice as likely btw. 
  • MrEd95
    MrEd95 Posts: 280 Mover and Shaker
    I suppose the argument could be made that if you are only pulling from latest, and you have your TH hero set to a classic, such as wasp, who you have on a 5/5/2 for example, the odds are still better than BH, as the colour you need is guaranteed, and you have no chance of pulling her from a regular latest token

    In contrast, if you were pulling from classics instead, trying to get the same wasp cover, there is always the chance that you pull it normally, meaning that you are ‘wasting’ those shards, which may have been better set to anyone else.

    Similarly, and to a greater scale, if you only pulled latest, and had Prof X set as your TH, you could just as easily max cover him normally without using shards.

    It all depends on what your goal is really, as to whether the idea is better or worse. I would suggest it is easier to finish of a classic 5* by pulling latest tokens, as you guarantee pulling the cover you need, rather than a 1 in 3 chance of it
  • PiMacleod
    PiMacleod Posts: 1,763 Chairperson of the Boards
    Hmm, i hope you didnt take my sarcasm as a 'dig', Hound.  I literally made my statement to point out how ridiculous it gets sometimes.  Im glad to see others respect those opinions too.  
  • jackstar0
    jackstar0 Posts: 1,280 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited November 2019
    This system is good for new players. How many new players are there? Are they spending? Will this push them?
    Who knows. Best case for new players is they can either target meta characters and get into the deeper game sooner, or they target their favorites and enjoy them sooner. Either way, nice for them.
    This ain't for old timers though.
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    Thanks for the love and kind words, but it's better to stay in the shadow. It's safer in there  >:)

    The reason(s) for "wasted shard" should be quite apparent now and only one scenario is used to support why the new system is not as good as BH system.

    I think it also comes down to goals. I think for the players on the "wasted shards" camp, their goal is to champ that character or hit the 10th cover and move on to the next character. 

    If your character is 5/5/2 and you end up with another 5 saved covers due to BH, isn't that considered a waste as well if the above is your goal since you don't really care about the extra rewards? 

    Using the above example, under the new system, your "waste" has been cut down by 3. And these 3 extra covers from BH could be "redirected" to the next one or two characters instead. IMO, this system actually helps you to reach your goals even faster.

    Between now and the implementation of the new system, your luck in getting the cover that you need via BH for 5/5/X characters will not be 100%. The probability is still 33.33%.

    I think the best news for most of the 4* and below players is that dilution has been effectively capped at 27 pulls from CP Stores. This new system is future proof in that even if there are more than 100 4* charactes next year, those players will find comfort knowing that the worst case scenario is still 27 pulls. I think it should be good news for the elder players because it means it will be easier for players to transition to 4* land.
  • Bryan Lambert
    Bryan Lambert Posts: 234 Tile Toppler


    If your character is 5/5/2 and you end up with another 5 saved covers due to BH, isn't that considered a waste as well if the above is your goal since you don't really care about the extra rewards? 

    Using the above example, under the new system, your "waste" has been cut down by 3. And these 3 extra covers from BH could be "redirected" to the next one or two characters instead. IMO, this system actually helps you to reach your goals even faster.


    I’m not following this at all. Not preferring the extra rewards but getting them anyway (saved BH covers) is not the same as having to choose between not getting any extra rewards at all OR diverting resources that could be used for more preferable rewards (other shards) as additional pulls to finish the champ level.

    Would I rather have a 12th and 13th cover in colors I need to complete a character than the LT and ISO I’d get from the first two champ levels? Absolutely. Would I rather have the LT and ISO than a L450 5-star with 375 shards? Also absolutely.

    But yeah, so much of it depends on where you are and what your goals are. There are a couple circumstances where this system is clearly preferable to BH (pulling Latests, targeting Classics), some where it’s clearly worse (pulling latests to target 5* latests), and a bunch of middle cases where out of the box it’s probably slightly worse but could shift based on how generous they are with the shard rewards (ha) and how predatory they are with the shard purchasing (also ha).
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited November 2019
    My scenario above applies to only 
    players under the following circumstances:

    1) whose goal is to champ the character or hit 10th cover for Shield Training, then move on to the next character.

    AND

    2) they don't care about the rewards gained from saved covers.

    If they cared about the rewards, shard wastage doesn't make sense unless that character is 1 cover away from being max champed and they have no desire to build a dupe.

    There are 50 scenarios in building a character from 0 to 12 covers. If we were to apply the concept of "shards wastage" to these 50 scenarios, it fails. There is zero wastage because you can control the distribution of your characters. I believe most would be working towards a 4/4/4 build. Because of this one scenario, of 5/5/3+ X shards, this system is automatically worse than BH system. I think it's unfair to put down this system because of one specific scenario.
  • Dogface
    Dogface Posts: 986 Critical Contributor
    The biggest problem in this discussion imo is that we're comparing two systems that are fundamentally different.
    One is based on chance, the other on guaranteed return. It's like stocks vs  savings. 
  • crackninja
    crackninja Posts: 444 Mover and Shaker
    Dogface said:
    The biggest problem in this discussion imo is that we're comparing two systems that are fundamentally different.
    One is based on chance, the other on guaranteed return. It's like stocks vs  savings. 
    The biggest problem is that we have no way of knowing how readily shards will be available outside of token pulls.  This could range wildly, from doing insanely bad things like replacing a 4* cover in every vault with a specific single 5* shard, to adding 50 5* shards to the progression ladders in scl9, etc. which would be awesome.
    My expectation is that availability outside of spending will be underwhelming and therefore the system will not be a viable solution for me, but it's a system with great potential.
  • AWorthyChap
    AWorthyChap Posts: 12 Just Dropped In
    Dogface said:
    The biggest problem in this discussion imo is that we're comparing two systems that are fundamentally different.
    One is based on chance, the other on guaranteed return. It's like stocks vs  savings. 
    Great analogy.....the only flaw is that if you are planning on investing for a long time you'd be a fool to pick savings over stocks.  In the long run the rise and fall and uncertainty of stocks will balance out to be unquestionably better than savings.

    The only complaint anyone ever had with Bonus Heroes was that the drop rate was too low.  And so they scrapped it......and replaced it with something that has an even lower drop rate.

    Thanks, I hate it!
  • Akroma
    Akroma Posts: 77 Match Maker
    Hi guys what do you think about this:

    under the bh system, if you want to open your hoard to get the latest 3 champed, it will require around 380ish pulls on average, and thats about 3 bh procs on average

    what about shards being non targeted,like a generic a pool per rarity, but for the latest 3 (or only the last hero coming maybe) you get up to 3 shard relocations, which is what you would get if you open the hoard on the bh system (around 380 pulls) and then after that, you trigger some kind of crippling cooldown or something, or maybe just max 3 targeted covers swaps on the latest ones per rotation (introduction of a new hero)

    that way, even with lower procs vs bh (which we could argue can be a trade off of getting a specific color cover), you can still use shards the way it was on the bh system, but it cannot be abused on the latest 3 (or last 1, the newest hero) 

    also: if d3 will really give a good amount of shards on in game rewards, maybe 2 separate pools? like this: you target some heroes, shards from lt and cp go to a "generic pool" of shards per rarity, but reward shards go to the specific heroes? (i think i like the 1st option more) 

    @IceIX
  • Chameleon
    Chameleon Posts: 183 Tile Toppler
    tiomono said:
    Chameleon said:
    IceIX said:

    DeNappa said:
    All those fancy calculations here, but those still don't address the issue that essentially your shards are wasted once you pull the 13nd cover for a character. Yes, once you fill up the shards bar for the character they can still be used for a champion level, but I don't think anybody is going to leave their 'finished' characters set as bonus hero unless they have finished them all. Making them essentially going to waste.

    I liked the idea that somebody mentioned in this thread (sorry cba to look for the specific post): shards should go into a general pool so you can spend them on any character of that tier, but limit the application of Shard rank ups by 1 or 2 per week.

    @IceIX any feedback on wasted shards in the new system?
    The idea of some kind of Wildcard Shard isn't a bad one. As pointed out in the thread elsewhere though, it also comes with some balancing downsides, some of which could be alleviated with usage restrictions, sure. It's something to keep in mind, and an 
    @IceIX
    I am astonished by this.  No, that doesn't mean that I think you are lying.  I am just seriously surprised that a "*ton*" of players choose to use Bonus Heroes for increasing champ levels.  What I wonder is if these players are doing it for the champ rewards, rather than to just max out the character.

    I'd much prefer that shards be allocated to tiers rather than characters.  I appreciate the attempt to remove the concern over getting a colour you can't immediately use.  I just dread regretting who I choose to apply these shards to because of the likelihood of drawing that cover organically in the time it takes to get those shards.  If I could choose to move the shards to another character (even colour-specific) upon pulling the cover I have marked then I'd be much happier!!  It would remove the sudden depression of "wasting" those shards.  Currently there is delight upon pulling a bonus hero.  To implement a new system which can cause the opposite feels wrong.
    The exact problem you are describing is still there with bonus heros. But with bonus heros you even getting one was a big old question mark. This system trades the question mark for guaranteed visual progress toward exactly what you want.
    @tiomono

    By "exact same problem" do you mean pulling the character I have designated as a Bonus Hero then immediately getting the Bonus Hero?  As I've said earlier in this forum, the likelihood of this is extremely low.  The likelihood with shards that I will pull the character before the shards fill up is far more astronomical.  Then they just sit there while I go start collecting shards for another character.
  • Chameleon
    Chameleon Posts: 183 Tile Toppler
    halirin said:
    Chameleon said:
    HoundofShadow said:
    And now players are talking as if they will get that perfect cover with every BH pull...

    If your character is 5/2/5, and you get a bonus hero, you have a 1/3 chance of champing that character. But chances are, you are going to get another unusable cover that won't allow you to champ that character.

    With this system, it's a guarantee that you will be able to champ your character.

    What if it will take you the third bonus hero cover before you can champ your character?  This happens so often and one of the biggest things that players dislike. 

    The reason why BH isn't colourless is probably due to this causing their sales to drop potentially. I hope it's not shocking.
    I'm not.  In fact, I've said otherwise above.

    I'll repeat it here:
    If you have 2 5* characters at 5/2/5 and you choose to save up shards for the first of the two then organically draw that first of the two will you not regret not saving shards towards the other character?
    Just wanted to chime in that I won't be particularly bothered by it. In this case, the shards will turn into a champ level, and I've long since learned to make piece with somewhat sub optimal 5* draws. Sure our prefer to champ two characters right now instead of 1. But any champ level on a character I like is better than yet another ock or wasp cover. Even those I try not to mind, because bad luck is just part of the game, and makes the good luck feel good. If I couldn't handle that, I'd find something else to play. 

    If someone chooses to be mad in that situation, I'm not sure how they handle the millions of other rng ironies and indignities in the game. (And life?)
    @halirin

    Fair enough.  As I've posted previously here, though, we play these games to be entertained and to feel joy, not regret and disappointment (like some people often feel in life).  I'm perfectly able to handle real-life ****.  Paying real money for a game which can now bring far more disappointment doesn't feel right.  With saved covers I wasn't as disappointed if I pulled a colour which was already at 5.  I *will* be disappointed to draw the cover I want and leave behind those shards to start over with another character.  Sure, I could leave that character designated for shards but by then another character I want will have come along.  So, I'd feel dragged down to have to keep that character collecting shards instead of applying them to the new shiny character I'd rather be collecting towards.
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    The reason why some are still confused why devs have to approach the game using a give and take approach is because those players are too absorbed in their world. It's the same thing when the devs revealed the majority of the players play game differently from the minority, they gets a shock and find it hard to accept the reality that the majority doesn't play game the same way they do.

    Look, the goals of players is to minimize the amount of time and money spent to get the resources as quickly as they want. 

    The goals of shareholders is to maximize their profits.

    The job of the developers is to balance these two extreme goals, to balance the games based on the metrics and conditions imposed on them.

    If the devs only add more good stuff for the players, this is not called balancing. This is called tilting the scale towards the players. 

    I don't get why this concept, after so many years, is still so difficult to understand. 
  • Chameleon
    Chameleon Posts: 183 Tile Toppler
    JHawkInc said:
    Chameleon said:

    I respect your position.  I wonder, though, how you wouldn't be disappointed at drawing the one you wanted when it's at 5/2/5 and you have a lot of shards saved up for that one.  You wouldn't regret not putting those shards towards one of the other 2?
    You're missing the point.

    Yes, I would regret that scenario.

    But multiple years of play leads me to believe that scenario is never going to happen, because it will be rare, and because it is directly preventable by my own actions.

    I'm not saying there are no drawbacks. I'm saying that the drawbacks are not as big as everyone is making them out to be, and that they will be manageable, like many other situations in this game (such as pulling a new character when you don't have the HP to roster them).
     Does this mean that you'll stop yourself from pulling from one these 5* stores with 3 5*s in them when the character(s) you want badly are in them?  Just to not risk pulling the one(s) you have shards targeted towards?  That seems overly restrictive.  Will you continue to not pull from classics so long as you haven't acquired the one you are saving shards for?  How does that solve the problem of dilution?  If the one you want is the newest entry in Latest Legends does that mean that you will wait as long as it takes to get that cover, even at the risk of not getting the other 2 Latest characters covered?  What about when a new meta character comes along and you don't care about the one you were aiming for anymore?  If they nuke the character you're saving towards how will that feel?

    It's not "counterproductive." It's literally the opposite. It's a deliberate choice to be more efficient to be MORE productive. I don't see it as over restrictive because it's not even something that's likely to happen to a large number of people in the first place. It's no different than how we had to manage our pulls before Saved covers became a thing. You do what fits your personal situation.

    All of your hypothetical situations can be mitigated by careful play. If it bothers you, you can prevent it from happening. I'm not going to waste space answering them, because the point is all the same, these are things that are manageable.

    We conceivably go from.. 'Woohooo.. Pulled a bonus hero!  YAY!" to "I've been saving shards for this one last cover I need and, now that I have more than half the shards needed, I pull that exact cover and now those shards will just sit there while I start over and send future shards off to this other character.  I wonder how many times this will happen again.. Great". 

    You're framing this with bias that fits your narrative.

    We also conceivably go from "Yay, pulled another bonus hero, but it's a waste because it's not the color cover I need" to "I don't need to pull from that store to chase the character I want because I'm guaranteed to get the exact color cover I need via shards!"

    We lose the excitement of a lucky bonus hero, sure, but we kill the disappointment of an unlucky bonus hero. Having experienced both, I'll gladly make the trade.

    And again, your downside scenario isn't likely to happen at all because I can plan what I do to prevent it. No amount of planning changes the fact that bonus heroes for a 5/5/X character have a better chance of being disappointing than they do of being the cover you want.

    The downsides are real, but they're not going to be near as common as people fear, and they're manageable. 

    @JHawkInc

    "But multiple years of play leads me to believe that scenario is never going to happen, because it will be rare, and because it is directly preventable by my own actions."  Maybe I'm missing something here but how will one manage to prevent pulling the cover they want while saving shards for that character?

    Me: "Also, it seems counterproductive to completely stop pulling from classics just because you want to make sure those shards get applied."
    You: "It's not "counterproductive." It's literally the opposite. It's a deliberate choice to be more efficient to be MORE productive."

    I'll clarify this one.  For newer players to the game (many of which I continually mentor so I know where they are coming from), not pulling from Classics when they are ready to jump to 5* land is very counterproductive.  They would be restricting themselves from gaining any of those characters (other than to pull from the stores which pop up with 3 5 stars).  All to make sure that the shards get applied to a specific character and they don't draw them in the meantime?  Obviously if they are just jumping in they have a long way to go and the shards won't be wasted but I have heard many times that they want just one cover of a 5 star to be able to go to CL7 in PvE.  This means that, to them, it will feel wasted and be a disappointment when they want to move on to select another (previously known as Bonus Hero) shard collector.  How many times are they likely to get the one cover they want before they have enough shards saved up and want to move on to the next one?  I am hearing from a lot of them on LINE that they will miss the opportunity to choose a bonus hero based on the upcoming essential in PvE.  Some have even said that they won't bother pulling for them and will stay below CL7 under this new system.  How does that help them grow their rosters and gain more badly needed resources?  We must remember that with the amount of players retiring each season (many of them Whales who spend a lot on MPQ), we need the new players to invest in this game to keep it going.

    "You're framing this with bias that fits your narrative."  Aren't we all?  These are our own personal opinions.

    None of these comments are meant to be inflammatory.  Again, they are my views.  I am intrigued by all points of views here on this topic.

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