New Feature in R191: Shards

shardwick

skittledaddy said:

ThaRoadWarrior said:

There are hard upper limits to how many saved covers you can bank up per tier, if something like that exists here for shards it would be good to know (assuming you can exceed 1 cover's worth). Can you get into 4-digit amounts, or does it stop at 999?

@HoundofShadow
Regarding the Profe$$or and Carnage store pricing, I think the daily deal 1x pull was 200, but after that single pulls were actually 400hp?

IceIX just confirmed on the R191 thread that you can, in fact, have more than one cover's worth in the bank.
400/300 shards was his cited example.

Edit:
IceIX also confirmed a cap of 9,999 shards per character.

Still not enough. That's roughly 25 covers and I want to build an army of Taloses.

Jormagund

Couldn't you just build an army of Mystiques and shapeshift them all to Talos at least then they'd be useful?

sambrookjm

Jormagund said:

Couldn't you just build an army of Mystiques and shapeshift them all to Talos at least then they'd be useful?

How about an army of Taloses, and shapeshift them all into Mystiques?

shardwick

I'm going to shapeshift my army of Taloses into Bishops. We will be unstoppable!

KGB

Godzillafan67 said:

I offer "hanging shards" to refer to shards that are on a non-targeted character. "Wasted" is closer to the scenario where the character is max champed and you will not be building a dupe. If we can obtain shards on characters that were never targeted, then it's highly likely that there'll be plenty of hanging shards.

Hanging Shards (are you from Florida, LOL), dangling shards or wasted shards is all really just another way of saying your BH draw rate is lower than expected.

Currently you expect to get a 5* BH roughly every 133 draws.

Under the Shard system it's every 166 draws.

But if you average a hang/waste/dangle rate of say 25 shards over time (trying to complete many 5*) you really have an effective rate of 525/3 = 175 draws which is significantly worse than 133 under the current system.

This is why a non-waste solution is desperately needed because a waste rate of 25 shards isn't unreasonable for those of us trying to fully cover our older 5* characters.

KGB

Bugeyed

I have mixed feelings over this. With only three 4* and five 5* to be champed to complete champing the current entire roster, shards will work for me as I have limited spread. Where this system will be most painful is the guys and gals just arriving in champed 4* land. The dilution at that level means they can’t just pick one 4* to target, as they need so many, and bh allowed them to target a whole bundle, immediately getting a cover each time they got a bh in a draw. Yes, it meant having to use the saved feature (probably the best thing you introduced in a long time) but those covers would get used when champed anyway. Targeting using shards means it will be bit by bit they get an extra cover, so will need to pick one and stick to it. The problem comes with shield training. Some recent shield training has required the newest characters and with bh you had a chance to get the 9 or 10 covers needed to get them to 209 in time with some lucky draws. The rate that shards will give those covers means that many more people will fall short of that and miss out on the new character from shield training. If they aren’t in an alliance that will get them a placement cover, they will have to wait for the following event to get the new character from progression rewards. This will put them even further behind. 

All you had had to do was ask the community here before you introduced such a radical feature. We would have pointed out the flaw. These shards should have been introduced similar to a currency, banked to use wherever you want. 3* 4* and 5* shards. You could have then monetised them even more to your advantage, but they would have worked better for the bigger majority.

Kept alongside bh, they would have made the game on more even keel for newer players, but also allowing your long term players to have a reason to actually like the feature. With the rate of new characters being introduced, the number of players who will have 100-200 shards on a new character, just as the next one is launched, means they will need to choose to ignore the newer one to chase the last one, or give up on the last one, which is what people are talking about when they refer to wasted shards, because they will be in a loop of new characters, replacing the targeted or favourited last new character. This is why dilution and shards is such a problem for people. People will end up with thousands of unused shards spread across multiple characters and this will have a negative impact on the longevity of the game as few will ever try to complete the shards on a character they stop collecting for because they will forever be chasing the next newest.

The community here has often gone all doom or gloom over a new feature killing the game, but this one is the most realistic one to achieve that. 

Please look at how many players are telling you this is a good idea generally, but that you’ve got the implementation wrong. The spread is even with new and old players telling you the same thing. Make shards non character specific, bankable alongside command points, keeping the bonus hero system and you’ve come up with the best future for the game, with a feature that will increase your revenue, helping fund the games future, rather than the current plan which the replies to this thread have generally shown to be killing it. Shards will help dilution if implemented thus.

Melac

I often favourite a 4* because I want to get them to 10 covers (level 209 for the free cover of new 4* releases).
So if I get as a Pull the 10th cover, but I'm, say, 350 shards in... Those are pretty much worthless to me.

crackninja

I know this idea has been brought up a bunch, but real world example:
So I'm looking at my 0-5-1 Iceman.  I'm sure someone has a great simulator for this, but I figure it'll take about 180 pulls to get him covered, so that's right around what it'll take to get a cover through the shard system.
He's a great candidate for targeting due to that colorless cover, whereas I would not have bonus heroed him.  Yet I'm already dreading this...what if I get lucky and cover him faster than expected, like 120 pulls which wouldnt be outrageous.
Through the BH system I would have at least known when to switch to someone else, no harm, no foul.  Instead, I would either have to leave it on Bobby to get the champ level, which is not a good investment costing me 1/4th of a 5* cover worth of shards to net me 15% of a 5* cover in the LT champ reward (and really it's less than that but since 15% is less than 25%, I won't derail things by going there), or I can do the sensible thing and abandon 3/4th of a 5* cover.
And if I get unlucky in covering him, I've not gained anything by targeting him vs the classics I someday hope to cover, because soon enough he'll be among them.

Dogface

crackninja said:

I know this idea has been brought up a bunch, but real world example:
So I'm looking at my 0-5-1 Iceman.  I'm sure someone has a great simulator for this, but I figure it'll take about 180 pulls to get him covered, so that's right around what it'll take to get a cover through the shard system.
He's a great candidate for targeting due to that colorless cover, whereas I would not have bonus heroed him.  Yet I'm already dreading this...what if I get lucky and cover him faster than expected, like 120 pulls which wouldnt be outrageous.
Through the BH system I would have at least known when to switch to someone else, no harm, no foul.  Instead, I would either have to leave it on Bobby to get the champ level, which is not a good investment costing me 1/4th of a 5* cover worth of shards to net me 15% of a 5* cover in the LT champ reward (and really it's less than that but since 15% is less than 25%, I won't derail things by going there), or I can do the sensible thing and abandon 3/4th of a 5* cover.
And if I get unlucky in covering him, I've not gained anything by targeting him vs the classics I someday hope to cover, because soon enough he'll be among them.

It depends on how many pulls you've got while he's still in Latest. As soon as Iceman is out of Latest, and your 0/5/1 hasn't changed dramatically, then he's a good candidate for targeted heroes.

Don't know about your math though. Assuming you don't want a saved cover, but the other 2 are welcome, I come to something like 1 in 30 (1/7 * 1/3 * 2/3). 180 pulls would ideally give you 6 covers and perhaps a BH. Not enough to champ...

ThaRoadWarrior

crackninja said:

[...]
And if I get unlucky in covering him, I've not gained anything by targeting him vs the classics I someday hope to cover, because soon enough he'll be among them.

I'm thinking at the 5* level it really makes the most sense to split your shards towards the pool you aren't pulling from so this doesn't happen. Just use your shards on a classic and pull from latest, then if you don't organically land Iceman, but are significantly closer and want to finish him, move your favorite over to him there. 

I really hope that the Feeder Talk in this announcement wasn't a smoke show, and we start getting a more regular pace of those. 4* targeted growth seems like it's MUCH more predictable now than it was before, particularly for unfed 4s that feed decent or good 5s (valkyrie, shuri, chavez, vulture, g4mora, kate bishop), so I'd like to start feeling out how much easier it will or won't be to use that system to more effectively target older 5s. Or I guess the New Normal being what it is, to just grow up ridiculous Bishops and WCaps for their own sake...

ElReyFelix

@IceIX

Any final word yet on the cost for daily shard offers? And what the "slight" price increase will be after each purchase?

VAHarleygirl

As someone who's been playing this for almost its entire 6 years, i have my entire 3* roster champed, and several maxed or close to it.  I have many 4* that have saved covers yet not in the color I want.  

Character shards is a great idea, & I think once implemented for most of us be better.   But i think either non specific shards,  or even color - specific shards,  would be better.  Because there have been characters in my roster that don't really shine until another character covers up to a more complementary ability (color) level. 

The rockett

@IceIX

since there is no way to earn or get a Master Support Token, is Demi/D3 looking to expand shards into Supports since this feature is basically  being ignored.  Thoughts on supports? 

Bugeyed

The rockett said:

@IceIX

since there is no way to earn or get a Master Support Token, is Demi/D3 looking to expand shards into Supports since this feature is basically  being ignored.  Thoughts on supports? 

Or will shards become the next item they introduce and then forget

PiMacleod

I just wanna mention that im with the majority here when it comes to the wish/demand that shards could be moved, or kept in a central pool.  

I like the ideas that the community is coming up with.  

While i personally find it hard to get bothered over much in a game (you can probably surmise that in my posts), i do see everyone's collective point.  I, too, will find it ever so slightly annoying to earn X23 shards or anyone else's shards im not working on... Knowing full well that i couldve instead enjoyed a chance at a bonus heart.

Any overage past the target number, if im not going for another cover, is considered wasted by many, but digressions aside, its the OCD and timesink of this game that drives someone crazy, when they see what equates to as any amount of time they couldve thrown into another character.

Just wanted to say that i understand the idea and the struggle.  Im just very laid back when it comes to games...  Sure, i play hard, but i usually shrug off negative issues, looking for a silver lining or a devil's advocate.  

Here's to hoping the developers hear/read the collective complaints to the system not-in-place yet.

DeNappa

crackninja said:

I know this idea has been brought up a bunch, but real world example:
So I'm looking at my 0-5-1 Iceman.  I'm sure someone has a great simulator for this, but I figure it'll take about 180 pulls to get him covered, so that's right around what it'll take to get a cover through the shard system.
He's a great candidate for targeting due to that colorless cover, whereas I would not have bonus heroed him.  Yet I'm already dreading this...what if I get lucky and cover him faster than expected, like 120 pulls which wouldnt be outrageous.
Through the BH system I would have at least known when to switch to someone else, no harm, no foul.  Instead, I would either have to leave it on Bobby to get the champ level, which is not a good investment costing me 1/4th of a 5* cover worth of shards to net me 15% of a 5* cover in the LT champ reward (and really it's less than that but since 15% is less than 25%, I won't derail things by going there), or I can do the sensible thing and abandon 3/4th of a 5* cover.
And if I get unlucky in covering him, I've not gained anything by targeting him vs the classics I someday hope to cover, because soon enough he'll be among them.

Exactly the issue I meant in my post earlier. I like the basic idea of the TH mechanics, but it's the non-discrete aspect of the sharding system what I'm most sceptical about.

I didn't post my 'real world example' yet as I would be partially repeating myself, but I still had this in a saved draft to illustrate my view:


In my eyes the bonus or target reward system should help in completing characters directly.

With respect to that goal, the bonus hero system is 'flawed' in the sense that you can receive a "useless" cover (ie, a color you already have 5 covers for). But at the same time, once you DO finish the character, the "useless" reward will still be useful as an immediate extra champ level. The target hero system improves upon that flaw by being "colorless", but at the same time takes a step back by being "partial".


Example:
Let's say your Okoye is 5/2/5 and you want to use the new TH system to take her to 13 covers. So you set Okoye as the only 5* TH. Let's also say you're not swimming in CP/tokens, for example, you can average 20 legendary pulls per month. Then, over 6 months you can make 120 legendary pulls, taking you 360 shards towards the 500 shards required for a finished Okoye.

Now say that after those 6 months you finally get a lucky pull from the classic vault (or who knows, maybe there is a new 5* release store that also features her). Yay, you finally completed Okoye!

But..... the TH system hasn't given you anything concrete yet. As @froggerjohn put it elegantly earlier, the Okoye shards have not 'matured into fruition'. So now you must EITHER keep Okoye as TH for 47 more pulls to finally 'harvest' the rewards for sharding her. OR you choose a new TH and by doing so abandon 6 months worth of sharding until you do decide to switch back later.

------

Now I still hope this scenario won't happen too much in the real world, so let's just wait and see. I guess we won't have much of a choice anyway. 

Possible idea to remedy this situation though: at the moment when you make a character a champion, offer the user to transfer the 'remaining' shards to another character. And maybe to prevent abuse, allow only a max of 499 shards to be transferred this way (for 5*s; should be 299 and 399 for 3*s and 4*s respectively).

Warbringa

I hate to break it to the people wanting characterless shards, but the devs probably won't move on it, just like with many issues brought forth in the forums.  The reason, as brought up many times before, is that we forums players are a small portion of the player base.  While perhaps having more experience, knowledge and interest in the game than the average player, they are going to make changes based on the surveys from the entire game, not just input here from the forums.  From a tactical standpoint, is shards a regression for some players given their style of play, certainly it is. Those players will be an even smaller portion of the player base, as you can see that there are forum players who are ambivalent or looking forward to the new system. My educated guess is that most players (not necessarily forum players) will like shards for a variety of reasons.  This is not a slight on the average player as the average player probably enjoys the game far more than we forum dwellers in many ways. 

If there is an easy way to modify this through the UI then maybe they can eventually put in a shard switching mechanic however I bet it is not an easy process to add and since it was not accounted for to begin with, it may be some time, if ever, that we see that change.  

I will offer my general solution to the devs that I feel is probably the most reasonable without overhauling the system as colorless shards would do.  Allow partial shards already earned on characters to be converted to HP.  Not sure what the conversion ratio would be but since we can now "buy" shards with HP, allow those shards that have been accumulated but now not wanted for a character to go back the player in HP so they can then buy shards for a different character when available in the store.  Is it perfect? No. Is is easier to implement than revamping the entire shard process/UI yes. Will you get 1:1 value on this, probably not but even if you can recoup a decent amount of the shard value, it would help against the complaints by some of the new system.  You still are dependent on waiting for that character to appear in the store but with daily stores, the wait shouldn't be terribly long, unlike the wait for HfH or special stores etc.  I apologize if this has already been suggested but I may have missed it in the past 21 pages 

Dogface

Again an example of a 12 cover situation. Just don't TH a character in that situation then if you 'fear' getting the 13th cover before the shards are complete.

And the chance to pull said 13th cover is extremely small. Most people would sooner complete the shards than get that cover just from a lucky pull.

crackninja

Warbringa said:

I hate to break it to the people wanting colorless shards, but the devs probably won't move on it, just like with many issues brought forth in the forums.  The reason, as brought up many times before, is that we forums players are a small portion of the player base.  While perhaps having more experience, knowledge and interest in the game than the average player, they are going to make changes based on the surveys from the entire game, not just input here from the forums.  From a tactical standpoint, is shards a regression for some players given their style of play, certainly it is. Those players will be an even smaller portion of the player base, as you can see that there are forum players who are ambivalent or looking forward to the new system. My educated guess is that most players (not necessarily forum players) will like shards for a variety of reasons.  This is not a slight on the average player as the average player probably enjoys the game far more than we forum dwellers in many ways. 

If there is an easy way to modify this through the UI then maybe they can eventually put in a shard switching mechanic however I bet it is not an easy process to add and since it was not accounted for to begin with, it may be some time, if ever, that we see that change.  

I will offer my general solution to the devs that I feel is probably the most reasonable without overhauling the system as colorless shards would do.  Allow partial shards already earned on characters to be converted to HP.  Not sure what the conversion ratio would be but since we can now "buy" shards with HP, allow those shards that have been accumulated but now not wanted for a character to go back the player in HP so they can then buy shards for a different character when available in the store.  Is it perfect? No. Is is easier to implement than revamping the entire shard process/UI yes. Will you get 1:1 value on this, probably not but even if you can recoup a decent amount of the shard value, it would help against the complaints by some of the new system.  You still are dependent on waiting for that character to appear in the store but with daily stores, the wait shouldn't be terribly long, unlike the wait for HfH or special stores etc.  I apologize if this has already been suggested but I may have missed it in the past 21 pages 

I think you are meaning shards set to the tier and not a specific character, not colorless, which is what shards are.
Assuming so, if anything I am better prepared to get over the disappointment in these scenarios because I get a solid number of pulls.  The casual player that waits 2-3 months even to get a four star TH only to find out they ultimately don't need it seems more likely to be upset and go from casual to disgruntled and done with the game.
Somebody may have already suggested it, but even just letting me transfer shards from one character to another at a 10% tax could work.  I could see them implementing it with a 25% tax which while obviously more painful, is still better than the current "sorry, not sorry".

Warbringa

crackninja said:

Warbringa said:

I hate to break it to the people wanting colorless shards, but the devs probably won't move on it, just like with many issues brought forth in the forums.  The reason, as brought up many times before, is that we forums players are a small portion of the player base.  While perhaps having more experience, knowledge and interest in the game than the average player, they are going to make changes based on the surveys from the entire game, not just input here from the forums.  From a tactical standpoint, is shards a regression for some players given their style of play, certainly it is. Those players will be an even smaller portion of the player base, as you can see that there are forum players who are ambivalent or looking forward to the new system. My educated guess is that most players (not necessarily forum players) will like shards for a variety of reasons.  This is not a slight on the average player as the average player probably enjoys the game far more than we forum dwellers in many ways. 

If there is an easy way to modify this through the UI then maybe they can eventually put in a shard switching mechanic however I bet it is not an easy process to add and since it was not accounted for to begin with, it may be some time, if ever, that we see that change.  

I will offer my general solution to the devs that I feel is probably the most reasonable without overhauling the system as colorless shards would do.  Allow partial shards already earned on characters to be converted to HP.  Not sure what the conversion ratio would be but since we can now "buy" shards with HP, allow those shards that have been accumulated but now not wanted for a character to go back the player in HP so they can then buy shards for a different character when available in the store.  Is it perfect? No. Is is easier to implement than revamping the entire shard process/UI yes. Will you get 1:1 value on this, probably not but even if you can recoup a decent amount of the shard value, it would help against the complaints by some of the new system.  You still are dependent on waiting for that character to appear in the store but with daily stores, the wait shouldn't be terribly long, unlike the wait for HfH or special stores etc.  I apologize if this has already been suggested but I may have missed it in the past 21 pages 

I think you are meaning shards set to the tier and not a specific character, not colorless, which is what shards are.
Assuming so, if anything I am better prepared to get over the disappointment in these scenarios because I get a solid number of pulls.  The casual player that waits 2-3 months even to get a four star TH only to find out they ultimately don't need it seems more likely to be upset and go from casual to disgruntled and done with the game.
Somebody may have already suggested it, but even just letting me transfer shards from one character to another at a 10% tax could work.  I could see them implementing it with a 25% tax which while obviously more painful, is still better than the current "sorry, not sorry".

You are right, should have actually said characterless shards....my bad!