New Feature in R191: Shards

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  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,278 Chairperson of the Boards
    Didn't Ice mention something about the possibility of starting duplicates with unused shards? Not sure whereabouts in 19 pages you will find that though and apologies if I am mis-quoting or it was somebody else who said this.
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,455 Chairperson of the Boards
    Daredevil217 said:
    Someone asked this earlier @IceIX, but what happens when we hit 500/500 shards. Do we have to apply them immediately or can they sit in the bank waiting to be converted. If the latter, how many shards can a person bank?

    If we can bank shards it REALLY allows for more flexibility. 

    I am concerned that you can't bank above a single cover, since all of the screenshots in the initial post have exactly one cover's worth of shards the user is about to spend, and you would expect earned shards to have a few loose above that number.
  • ElReyFelix
    ElReyFelix Posts: 104 Tile Toppler
    pheregas said:
    ElReyFelix said:
    HoundofShadow said:
    I'm expecting between 2800 HP to 3600 HP for 400 4* shards, and 25000 to 45000 HP for 400 5* shards, depending on whether it's latest or classic character.
    What was your reasoning behind these #s?
    I'm not 100% sure where Hound's math comes in.  But based on IceX's original post at the beginning of this thread.  The offered daily deal shows a 5* Iron Man with 10 shard points for 280 HP.  On a long enough timeline, that daily deal will repeat.  There are currently 38 5*s in the game.  So if we just average 10 shards purchasable by HP a month, it will take us 50 months to get a single cover through HP alone.  (Which just breaks my mind a little to contemplate.)

    50 daily deals times 280 HP = 14,000 HP.  So one 5* cover = 14,000 HP.
    The most recent update says that you can buy each deal up to 20 times, and each bundle is 20 shards (for 4* and 5*). It also says there is a "slight" increase after each purchase
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,455 Chairperson of the Boards
    I had a similar gut feeling to Hound's about pricing - a current 4* HFH cover costs 3600hp, comes with 10k iso, 3cp, and 8 elite tokens. 

    Depending on how high of a value they place on the flexibility of color-lessness compared to the other resources that used to come with an HFH deal, I would expect the total hp cost of a purchased-shard-cover to probably come out a little above the existing cost for a known color cover + other stuff.

    3600/20 = 180, so it's already not a straight conversion from the get-go.

    3* covers have not been directly purchasable for hp since I've been playing, so the value of those shards is not as easy to extrapolate. 

    5* Coves similarly have only recently (to my memory) become available in hp-buy situations via that early release store with 1:250 odds. I guess we could tabulate a ballpark value for a 5* cover from the prices of draws in that store, but in my mind that's not an apples to apples comparison to shards.
  • Xception81
    Xception81 Posts: 426 Mover and Shaker
    ThaRoadWarrior said:
    Daredevil217 said:
    Someone asked this earlier @IceIX, but what happens when we hit 500/500 shards. Do we have to apply them immediately or can they sit in the bank waiting to be converted. If the latter, how many shards can a person bank?

    If we can bank shards it REALLY allows for more flexibility. 

    I am concerned that you can't bank above a single cover, since all of the screenshots in the initial post have exactly one cover's worth of shards the user is about to spend, and you would expect earned shards to have a few loose above that number.
    I don’t see it that way. I think the shard “get a cover” image is showing similar to CP... you can increase a color/cover using that specific amount showing. In the individual shard area (progression/meter/whatever), I think it’ll be like saved covers where you can see you have 8/5 saved covers (for a 4* that’s not champed), or in this case it’ll probably show 520/500 shards. 
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,455 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited November 2019

    Check this picture out, and look at the 300/300 shard counter in the background. You can land on 300 exactly by only pulling heroics at the 3* tier, so it's not definitive, but it's also not showing us 306/300 to definitely showcase you can do it.
  • bluewolf
    bluewolf Posts: 5,821 Chairperson of the Boards
    ThaRoadWarrior said:

    Check this picture out, and look at the 300/300 shard counter in the background.
    Well, in your initial presentation of the system, making everything look nice and neat is to your benefit.  Plus it tries to steer clear of having to answer one question we have been discussing ad nauseum - what about when you go over?  It's obvious that you can go past 300/400/500 saved.

    One small thing I hit on.  If you don't have someone rostered, you can still collect shards and then you can leave them in the ether if you don't need/want to roster them yet.

    So in a way the shard system circumvents the vine for unrostered people, assuming you want to use it that way.  At least in terms of giving you the option of having a cover ready to roster without an expiration date being attached.
  • Dogface
    Dogface Posts: 999 Critical Contributor
    In the discussion on getting  the 13th 5* cover from an ordinary pull, it matters a whole deal if we're talking Latest or Classic. In Latest it's about 1 in 60 vs about 1 in 700 for Classic (and ever getting higher with more characters).

    BH for both Latest and Classic is the same at about 1 in 500. Ofcourse, these are chances. Might get it first try or in two years.
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    The rate for pulling 4* from Heroics is 1:16 , which will cost between 1600HP to 3200 HP. 

    Choice/control + Instant gratification = premium pricing. Therefore, I think it will cost around 3200 HP. The pricing for 4* HP store is 3600 HP. So, I used +/-400HP based on 3200HP.

    For 5*, I worked out that 1 CP = 100 HP via 5* Costume Bundles. So, 250CP = 25,000HP and 500CP = 50,000HP. This matched one of the rate for Prof X's HP store saga. The odds was 1:250 for single pull, which cost 200 HP. So, 250 pulls * 200 HP happens to be 50,000 HP. However, the rate for Prof X's saga 40x pull was lower at 1:166, which happens to be the number we have now: 500/3=166. I don't think it's a coincident. I can't remember the rate for that 40x pull so I'm basing it on 11,400 from Heroic Store. 166/40*11400= 47310 HP. Because it't not a full cover, it should be lesser.

    It should be good news if the final cost is much lower than what I'm expecting. If that's the case, I think they would be embarking on something new, like tiered VIP plan?




  • bluewolf
    bluewolf Posts: 5,821 Chairperson of the Boards
    I don't know if anyone has already posted this....SO MANY COMMENTS!

    But I was looking at the shard thing for 4's specifically.  Assuming you pick someone and you are worried about just getting that cover....

    Now, just from Legendary pulls you need 27 pulls to get one 4 (15 shards per legendary, need 400).  Heroics help fill in shards too, of course.  Your odds of getting that character AT ALL from those number of pulls is about 25% since you need over 100 to MAYBE get one cover given perfect distribution and all that (since we have 86 4's in tokens currently, and growing....Wolfsbane yet to enter, new character coming next week, etc).  So 75% of the time you would never be ending up with a partial cover before you filled it in, especially if you are opening Heroics as well.

    This is without any other systems coming into play.  I mean a 25% chance is kind of high, but you'd think that you will get pretty far into the 27 pulls before (on average) pulling that person and you'd therefore be pretty close to finishing the cover by that point.

    Anyway the "wasted shard" concern might be a bit much in terms of 4's.  We will see how it goes in practice.
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,455 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited November 2019
    There are hard upper limits to how many saved covers you can bank up per tier, if something like that exists here for shards it would be good to know (assuming you can exceed 1 cover's worth). Can you get into 4-digit amounts, or does it stop at 999?

    @HoundofShadow
    Regarding the Profe$$or and Carnage store pricing, I think the daily deal 1x pull was 200, but after that single pulls were actually 400hp?
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    I think they have the flexibility to work out a certain range of discount up to 50% off the origin value or maybe more, but it's all guesses based on the way HP store is setup.

    The rate for latest 5* cover in HP store is 166/40*11400(?)= ~47310. Classic would be roughly half of that: ~25000HP.

    I will be taken aback if they price 400 5* shards at 280*40= 11,200HP for classic characters or even Latest characters.

    Those who went hard for Prof X or even Carnage HP store will probably be fuming mad if they priced it this low.

    Again, let's hope they will price 400 5* Shards at not more than 11200HP.




  • RickOShay
    RickOShay Posts: 452 Mover and Shaker
    edited November 2019
    Cactus_Jack_87 said:
    If the numbers on that store are correct, with 10 sharts being available to buy towards a 5* cover for 280 HP, that means D3 values each 5* cover at 14,000 HP. I think they have finally jumped the shart with this one.

    All humor aside (and it's continuously good), if there was a Vault which contained a 5* cover and you had your choice of color, this would get bought out continuously.  
    It depends on price, and it would be bought by mostly those who save HP and those who spend real $ in the game of course. 

    Not sure what the content totals would need to be, but an 80 item vault with a 40x for 9800 would get repeated purchases.

    So, 2x 9800 to ensure the full vault contents = 19,600 HP.
    It depends on how you value the other 79 items here, but I assure you it would be purchased a lot, and probably quite comparable to your 14,000 mentioned above.
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,455 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited November 2019
    We know it will take 25 shard drop purchases to get a 5* cover this way, and we know the cheapest possible 20 shard slug costs 280, with an undisclosed incrementation model every purchase. It's probably something along the lines of the ISO-cost ramp it takes to level up a character (level 256 on a 5* costs WAY less than lvl 450). The absolute cheapest it could be is:

    280*25 = 7,000 hp

    We know it will increment by some amount, probably more and more each time, so I highly doubt you'll be able to get one anywhere near that cost. I'm definitely thinking up in that 12-14k range "feels" about like where it will land.

  • MoosePrime
    MoosePrime Posts: 969 Critical Contributor
    edited November 2019
    ThaRoadWarrior said:
    We know it will take 25 shard drop purchases to get a 5* cover this way, and we know the cheapest possible 20 shard slug costs 280, with an undisclosed incrementation model every purchase.
    Do we know the cheapest will be 280 HP for 20 shards?  The picture on page one, which notes "Shard costs are not final", shows 10 shards for 280 HP (so 28 HP/shard).  That means the minimum cost could be:
    28*500 = 14,000 hp
    I'm hoping they tell us how the costs scale, so we know how much it will cost to purchase a cover using the daily shard offer store.
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,455 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited November 2019
    MoosePrime said:
    ThaRoadWarrior said:
    We know it will take 25 shard drop purchases to get a 5* cover this way, and we know the cheapest possible 20 shard slug costs 280, with an undisclosed incrementation model every purchase.
    Do we know the cheapest will be 280 HP for 20 shards?  The picture on page one, which notes "Shard costs are not final", shows 10 shards for 280 HP (so 28 HP/shard).  That means the minimum cost could be:
    28*500 = 14,000 hp
    I'm hoping they tell us how the costs scale, so we know how much it will cost to purchase a cover using the daily shard offer store.

    I suppose we don't actually know that. The edit section says shards will be in 20x slugs for 4s and 5s, but not the starting cost:

    EDIT

    Update on the Shard Shop with some more final numbers:

    The shop will update twice a day, at 5AM and 5PM Eastern Time
    The slots will refresh as pictured above - 1 5-star, 3 4-stars, 2 3-stars each time
    Each slot will be purchaseable 20 times each reset at slightly increasing cost per reset (exact costs still being finalized)
    Shards given per purchase will be 20x per 4 or 5-star slot, 15x for each 3-star slot

    Since the slugs are 20x, and you can only buy it 20x times, you won't be able to directly purchase a 5* cover all in one go it would appear.

  • ZootSax
    ZootSax Posts: 1,819 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited November 2019
    ThaRoadWarrior said:
    3* covers have not been directly purchasable for hp since I've been playing, so the value of those shards is not as easy to extrapolate. 
    FWIW, prior to the advent of CP, 1* covers used to cost 125 hero points (!!!), 2* covers were 250 HP, 3* covers were 500 HP and 4* covers used to cost 2,500 HP.  If they held the 1:5 ratio between tiers 3->4->5 you'd end up with a 5* cover being $12,500 HP, which is in line with some logical speculations here.  

    That's all old data, though, so it's anybody's guess.
  • shardwick
    shardwick Posts: 2,121 Chairperson of the Boards
    IIAlonditeII said:
    HoundofShadow said:
    The reason why some are still confused why devs have to approach the game using a give and take approach is because those players are too absorbed in their world. It's the same thing when the devs revealed the majority of the players play game differently from the minority, they gets a shock and find it hard to accept the reality that the majority doesn't play game the same way they do.

    Look, the goals of players is to minimize the amount of time and money spent to get the resources as quickly as they want. 

    The goals of shareholders is to maximize their profits.

    The job of the developers is to balance these two extreme goals, to balance the games based on the metrics and conditions imposed on them.

    If the devs only add more good stuff for the players, this is not called balancing. This is called tilting the scale towards the players. 

    I don't get why this concept, after so many years, is still so difficult to understand. 
    If you understand this, then you must surely understand that to ensure the rope is not pulled too far away from us, the vocal complaints are a necessary part of the cycle.

    Do you think the shareholders ever come into a meeting and say "oh, you made X sum of money? Well, that's enough, boys. Don't worry about making any changes, just let the game float as it is. I'm quite pleased with that amount of money."

    The people who profit from these ventures always want even more return on investment, even if it's already quite good. Which means that end of the rope is always being pulled. You say the forums are being unfair and these users don't consider the constant pressure they feel from that side, but I want to point out that if that side is being constantly pressured and the player side drops its vocality in the interest of fairness, the rope will rapidly be pulled away from this side.
    Not to mention that if you're always doing things to benefit corporate suits at the expense of your players then you're not exactly building a lot of good will with the players. That leads to people becoming more and more disinterested with the game and opting to go play something else. 
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    I think they have done nice things for different groups of players. But humans tend to remember the negative experiences. For example, swapping cover via customer service was something done out of goodwill, and it went on for a few months or close to a years? Sure, it has stopped, but it didn't mean that what they have done should be disregarded. But it also doesn't mean that they have to always tilt things towards the players. I doubt they can come up with a solution that can makes all parties happy. Naturally, they strive to make majority of the players happy.

    Last year, they made changes to the cascades in PvEs because a lot of new players complained about the game "cheating". I think the responses were roughly split about them spending the effort to do this. They also made changes to 1* Spiderman's abilities to simplify the learning curves for new players. It's something that doesn't benefit the veterans, but you can't say they are always squeezing the players, or diaregarding their feedbacks.

    I think recently they also did some stealthy changes for casual players: putting the first cover as PvP progression reward of new released 4*. It has happened for the last two new releases and I hope it continues for future 4* release. Casual players, now have a 1/1/1 build, rather than a 0/1/2 build. This might look insignificant to you but I think it's a big deal to them.

    I don't think it's easy to juggle around different expectations. Did they miss the mark sometimes? Yes, they do. Did they try to change things as soon as possible? Sometimes, if it's within their limits. Can they always tilt things towards the players? No, they can't. What about doing it temporarily? Sometimes. Remember the wonderful compensations given out this year for PvE breakdown?  It was unexpected but it didn't last long. Cover swap? 

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