***** Carnage (Prophet of Knull) *****

wymtime

@IceIX I would love to hear about your experience play testing carnage.  Most of the comments from this thread are down on carnage.  When you play tested him how did you feel he worked well in he 5* tier.

also in general are the devs going to go back to some older 5* that are under performing and look to buff some of their stats.  I say this because from a 1st impression of Carnage if if each of his powers were just a little stronger he would be a really solid to good 5*. I personally like his mechanics and concepts and feel with a slight buff he would find more use in the game.

any additional insight would be greatly appreciated.

Daredevil217

We should hopefully get one of those “character insight” blog posts. I think this will be the first we’ve gotten for a 5* if so. 

BriMan2222

Polares said:

BriMan2222 said:

Man, I was hoping to break open my hoard (almost 400 pulls currently) when the latest legends pack is Prof X, carnage, whoever comes after carnage but it looks like I'm gonna have to keep hoarding and hope the 3 after carnage are worth pulling for.

Man, you have enough pulls to get the 3 x-men now, still have some CPs afterwards, start hoarding again, ignore Carnage and then get the 3 after him :P

Storm and Iceman don't really wow me from what I've seen and Daredevil's breakdown on them didn't make me want to crack my hoard on them. Prof X seems fun but I don't have a well covered Black Bolt or Gambit to go with Storm and Iceman seems kind of Meh.  I was waiting for a 5 star that is either new meta and/or a character that I really love.  

JDFiend

So, his black will give you two matches against per turn against a Gritty? Doesn't that mean it'll be possible to fire his red off every turn, even when discounting four matches and cascades?

I know it's not a given the auto match will be red, but... Still seems pretty good every other turn given Kitty's health. 

Think it'd be interesting with Chavez.

Might even be very interesting with Doc Oc's Green. Self healing tank with team damage, and team healer countdown with a team damage potential. Both for six ap, which could be collected in a single turn. 

Kind of interesting. 

Polares

BriMan2222 said:

Polares said:

BriMan2222 said:

Man, I was hoping to break open my hoard (almost 400 pulls currently) when the latest legends pack is Prof X, carnage, whoever comes after carnage but it looks like I'm gonna have to keep hoarding and hope the 3 after carnage are worth pulling for.

Man, you have enough pulls to get the 3 x-men now, still have some CPs afterwards, start hoarding again, ignore Carnage and then get the 3 after him :P

Storm and Iceman don't really wow me from what I've seen and Daredevil's breakdown on them didn't make me want to crack my hoard on them. Prof X seems fun but I don't have a well covered Black Bolt or Gambit to go with Storm and Iceman seems kind of Meh.  I was waiting for a 5 star that is either new meta and/or a character that I really love.  

Sure, I am not saying they are great (well, ProfX I think it is), but you have so many pulls right now, that you can get those 3s, you will probably end up with like 100 to 150 pulls left, start hoarding again, and by the time we get three new 5s after Carnage you will probably have around 250 or more pulls again, ready for when some great 5s are in Latest again. I mean at this point hording is just hurting you. You dont get more 4s and you have enough to get these three 5s and the next ones after Carnage.

How many CPs do you get in a week? I guess if you get very few you might not have enough time, but if you get the masx progression from PvE and then ones from the nodes you should have more than enough time.



Now, regarding Carnage... I guess he is okeish, probably worse than Storm, and definitely worse than Iceman. If his green would do a bit more, and his red a bit more damage he would be decent. Another 5 I will get that I will probably use just when he is featured

BriMan2222

Polares said:

BriMan2222 said:

Polares said:

BriMan2222 said:

Man, I was hoping to break open my hoard (almost 400 pulls currently) when the latest legends pack is Prof X, carnage, whoever comes after carnage but it looks like I'm gonna have to keep hoarding and hope the 3 after carnage are worth pulling for.

Man, you have enough pulls to get the 3 x-men now, still have some CPs afterwards, start hoarding again, ignore Carnage and then get the 3 after him :P

Storm and Iceman don't really wow me from what I've seen and Daredevil's breakdown on them didn't make me want to crack my hoard on them. Prof X seems fun but I don't have a well covered Black Bolt or Gambit to go with Storm and Iceman seems kind of Meh.  I was waiting for a 5 star that is either new meta and/or a character that I really love.  

Sure, I am not saying they are great (well, ProfX I think it is), but you have so many pulls right now, that you can get those 3s, you will probably end up with like 100 to 150 pulls left, start hoarding again, and by the time we get three new 5s after Carnage you will probably have around 250 or more pulls again, ready for when some great 5s are in Latest again. I mean at this point hording is just hurting you. You dont get more 4s and you have enough to get these three 5s and the next ones after Carnage.

How many CPs do you get in a week? I guess if you get very few you might not have enough time, but if you get the masx progression from PvE and then ones from the nodes you should have more than enough time.



Now, regarding Carnage... I guess he is okeish, probably worse than Storm, and definitely worse than Iceman. If his green would do a bit more, and his red a bit more damage he would be decent. Another 5 I will get that I will probably use just when he is featured

I hit 900 pretty much every pvp event and I usually do pve to progression. I don't really need any 4 star covers though is the thing.  I've been playing since day one basically and most of my 4"s are near max champed and I have all 4's champed except the  newest ones.  4 star covers would just give me champ levels and more cp, more LL tokens, and more iso to add to my hoard of resources.

I have serveral 5's champed.  The only reason I started hoarding is because when Dr Doom came out I really wanted him.  He would have fit my team well, usually I use Panthos, with his colors covering what panthos doesn't have and I like him as a character.  I got really unlucky and only got one cover for him the entire time he was in latest.  I started hoarding so that the next time a character comes around that I love I can guarantee I won't be that unlucky again.

Vhailorx

wymtime said:

@IceIX I would love to hear about your experience play testing carnage.  Most of the comments from this thread are down on carnage.  When you play tested him how did you feel he worked well in he 5* tier.

also in general are the devs going to go back to some older 5* that are under performing and look to buff some of their stats.  I say this because from a 1st impression of Carnage if if each of his powers were just a little stronger he would be a really solid to good 5*. I personally like his mechanics and concepts and feel with a slight buff he would find more use in the game.

any additional insight would be greatly appreciated.

I don't want to speak for anyone, and i would like any available insight too, but i think we have to recognize that this request puts IceIX in a difficult position. 

Carnage's value on mpq rosters has a fairly direct link to Demi/d3's financial bottom line.  So offering any personal opinion whatsoever is subject to at least an appearance of conflict.  (If ice save Carnage is great, can we trust that as anything but marketing hype?  And if ice thinks Carnage is wasp-level bad, doesn't saying as much publicly put him in an uncomfortable position, especially before the character is even released?  Trash talking your own product before release is not generally the best business strategy).

Daredevil217

BriMan2222 said:

Polares said:

BriMan2222 said:

Polares said:

BriMan2222 said:

Man, I was hoping to break open my hoard (almost 400 pulls currently) when the latest legends pack is Prof X, carnage, whoever comes after carnage but it looks like I'm gonna have to keep hoarding and hope the 3 after carnage are worth pulling for.

Man, you have enough pulls to get the 3 x-men now, still have some CPs afterwards, start hoarding again, ignore Carnage and then get the 3 after him :P

Storm and Iceman don't really wow me from what I've seen and Daredevil's breakdown on them didn't make me want to crack my hoard on them. Prof X seems fun but I don't have a well covered Black Bolt or Gambit to go with Storm and Iceman seems kind of Meh.  I was waiting for a 5 star that is either new meta and/or a character that I really love.  

Sure, I am not saying they are great (well, ProfX I think it is), but you have so many pulls right now, that you can get those 3s, you will probably end up with like 100 to 150 pulls left, start hoarding again, and by the time we get three new 5s after Carnage you will probably have around 250 or more pulls again, ready for when some great 5s are in Latest again. I mean at this point hording is just hurting you. You dont get more 4s and you have enough to get these three 5s and the next ones after Carnage.

How many CPs do you get in a week? I guess if you get very few you might not have enough time, but if you get the masx progression from PvE and then ones from the nodes you should have more than enough time.



Now, regarding Carnage... I guess he is okeish, probably worse than Storm, and definitely worse than Iceman. If his green would do a bit more, and his red a bit more damage he would be decent. Another 5 I will get that I will probably use just when he is featured

I hit 900 pretty much every pvp event and I usually do pve to progression. I don't really need any 4 star covers though is the thing.  I've been playing since day one basically and most of my 4"s are near max champed and I have all 4's champed except the  newest ones.  4 star covers would just give me champ levels and more cp, more LL tokens, and more iso to add to my hoard of resources.

I have serveral 5's champed.  The only reason I started hoarding is because when Dr Doom came out I really wanted him.  He would have fit my team well, usually I use Panthos, with his colors covering what panthos doesn't have and I like him as a character.  I got really unlucky and only got one cover for him the entire time he was in latest.  I started hoarding so that the next time a character comes around that I love I can guarantee I won't be that unlucky again.

Who are your other 5*?

BriMan2222

Daredevil217 said:

Who are your other 5*?

I have Thanos, Panther, Dr Strange, Star Lord, Hawkeye, Robbie Reyes Ghost Rider all champed and I have Dare Devil Champable just haven't champed him yet.  I also have OML at 5/2/5 and lvl 430

In Pvp I usually use Panther and Thanos against Gritty teams and Ghost Rider/Thanos for most other teams. Pve Thanos/panther/dr strange is usually my go to team.

RickOShay

Taking a PvP look at Carnage vs a Thorkoye (non-Gritty) team, where the 3* essential does not spam special tiles: 

Turn 1: Make any match, while prioritizing red

Turn 2: No enemy special tiles are out, so Carnage creates 2x 195 enemy attack tiles
(assume you can't match them away, and you probably don't want to yet. Black and Red are at cover level 5)

Turn 3: Beginning of turn, there's only 2 enemy attack tiles (eAT) are out, so create 2x 195 attacks again (assume you still cannot / don't want to match them yet)

Turn 4: If all 4 of these eAT's are present, you now earn a free random match and then create a 322 Strike tile. Now make your own match, but do you want to avoid matching eAT's away? You might, since the Strike tile and a free match may be more valuable than an additional friendly attack tile (fAT).
(keep in mind that if the enemy matches away their own attack tiles you will be kept waiting for more to earn the Strike and free match)

Turn 5a:
Carnage makes another free match if you kept 4x eAT on the board. Did that free match take away an eAT? Or, can you? Yay, Create 1x 168 fAT to compliment the additional Strike tile you now have.
Turn 5b: 
Perhaps you still managed to avoid matching away all eAT's. You will then only have 2x 322 Strikes now.
(green must be at cover level 3 if red and black are at level 5)

Turn 6:  By now you've certainly gotten 6 red AP, right? Well that's fine but you still don't want to fire Blood Fued since you only have 2 or 3 special tiles.
The enemy has 3 or 4 attack tiles at the beginning of this turn. So Carnage either creates 2 additional for them for 5 total - or - you earn a free match and a Strike tile. Try to match one away buddy! Even weak attack tiles carry Strike tile damage with them.

Turn 7:  Did you match one away? Whether you did or not, Carnage is probably earning a free turn here. But, even with the added Strike tiles you may Still have just 3 special tiles out, since things can easily get matched away.. and you are playing with a / 5* Carnage! \ on your team. 
Now, match that purple attack tile away, that should help a lot!!

Turn 8: By now you're learning that it's quite difficult for your 5* Carnage to get 4x friendly specials on the board to fire his cheap red ability to full effect. Did you bring Thor along? That's only 2 active damage abilities unless you run amazingly well on 21 yellow.


*Important note: You need to understand the importance of the eAT and fAT acronyms, and that this was written during my lunch break. 

Daredevil217

Vhailorx said:

wymtime said:

@IceIX I would love to hear about your experience play testing carnage.  Most of the comments from this thread are down on carnage.  When you play tested him how did you feel he worked well in he 5* tier.

also in general are the devs going to go back to some older 5* that are under performing and look to buff some of their stats.  I say this because from a 1st impression of Carnage if if each of his powers were just a little stronger he would be a really solid to good 5*. I personally like his mechanics and concepts and feel with a slight buff he would find more use in the game.

any additional insight would be greatly appreciated.

I don't want to speak for anyone, and i would like any available insight too, but i think we have to recognize that this request puts IceIX in a difficult position. 

Carnage's value on mpq rosters has a fairly direct link to Demi/d3's financial bottom line.  So offering any personal opinion whatsoever is subject to at least an appearance of conflict.  (If ice save Carnage is great, can we trust that as anything but marketing hype?  And if ice thinks Carnage is wasp-level bad, doesn't saying as much publicly put him in an uncomfortable position, especially before the character is even released?  Trash talking your own product before release is not generally the best business strategy).

I don’t think “he’s awesome!” or “he’s trash!” is what people are looking for. Whether a true opinion or not, it doesn’t provide much insight. 

My thought process is that they did extensive testing on the character and obviously think he’s good. If not, I’m sure they would have buffed him. So if they think he’s good and we all think he’s trash, maybe there are some synergies, ways to play him, or opponents he works well against that we’re not seeing. Yes, we have numbers, but they had the opportunity to play him a bunch, and so by virtue of that have a much different experience of the character. I’m not looking for “good” or “bad” feedback. Just honest. What were you going for and do you feel you hit the mark. 

Vhailorx

Daredevil217 said:

My thought process is that they did extensive testing on the character and obviously think he’s good. If not, I’m sure they would have buffed him. So if they think he’s good and we all think he’s trash, maybe there are some synergies, ways to play him, or opponents he works well against that we’re not seeing. Yes, we have numbers, but they had the opportunity to play him a bunch, and so by virtue of that have a much different experience of the character. I’m not looking for “good” or “bad” feedback. Just honest. What were you going for and do you feel you hit the mark. 

Well, I don't know that I agree with your assessment about Demi's dev cycle (I'm sure they do target "good" for every character in development, but their release schedule is such that I bet they rarely make late-in-cycle changes to characters unless they have real fears of a true outlier (up or down).  And do we really think the anyone at Demi/d3 plays new characters/events *a bunch* before they release?  I don't mean to snarky or mean, but they did release boss rush having never play tested it with 5* rosters. . And don't we always complain that many new elements strongly suggest that Demi doesn't really understand the elder game very well? There is just not too much evidence for extensive pre-release play testing in mpq.

Finally, I would re-emphasize that pre-release commentary from Demi/d3 comms staff basically has to be positive (unless they are announcing a pre-release rework).  Anything else is likely to get them in trouble with management.  Post-release I think we can expect a far more transparent assessment of character strength relative to dev goals.

(And to be clear: I would suggest that we players ask Demi/d3 for accurate, timely communication of facts pre-release, and then shift to asking for more editorial/opinion-based information post-release.)

jp1

So....

Who tested Wa5p?

JDFiend

RickOShay said:

Taking a PvP look at Carnage vs a Thorkoye (non-Gritty) team, where the 3* essential does not spam special tiles: 

Turn 1: Make any match, while prioritizing red

Turn 2: No enemy special tiles are out, so Carnage creates 2x 195 enemy attack tiles
(assume you can't match them away, and you probably don't want to yet. Black and Red are at cover level 5)

Turn 3: Beginning of turn, there's only 2 enemy attack tiles (eAT) are out, so create 2x 195 attacks again (assume you still cannot / don't want to match them yet)

Turn 4: If all 4 of these eAT's are present, you now earn a free random match and then create a 322 Strike tile. Now make your own match, but do you want to avoid matching eAT's away? You might, since the Strike tile and a free match may be more valuable than an additional friendly attack tile (fAT).
(keep in mind that if the enemy matches away their own attack tiles you will be kept waiting for more to earn the Strike and free match)

Turn 5a:
Carnage makes another free match if you kept 4x eAT on the board. Did that free match take away an eAT? Or, can you? Yay, Create 1x 168 fAT to compliment the additional Strike tile you now have.
Turn 5b: 
Perhaps you still managed to avoid matching away all eAT's. You will then only have 2x 322 Strikes now.
(green must be at cover level 3 if red and black are at level 5)

Turn 6:  By now you've certainly gotten 6 red AP, right? Well that's fine but you still don't want to fire Blood Fued since you only have 2 or 3 special tiles.
The enemy has 3 or 4 attack tiles at the beginning of this turn. So Carnage either creates 2 additional for them for 5 total - or - you earn a free match and a Strike tile. Try to match one away buddy! Even weak attack tiles carry Strike tile damage with them.

Turn 7:  Did you match one away? Whether you did or not, Carnage is probably earning a free turn here. But, even with the added Strike tiles you may Still have just 3 special tiles out, since things can easily get matched away.. and you are playing with a / 5* Carnage! \ on your team. 
Now, match that purple attack tile away, that should help a lot!!

Turn 8: By now you're learning that it's quite difficult for your 5* Carnage to get 4x friendly specials on the board to fire his cheap red ability to full effect. Did you bring Thor along? That's only 2 active damage abilities unless you run amazingly well on 21 yellow.


*Important note: You need to understand the importance of the eAT and fAT acronyms, and that this was written during my lunch break. 

Depends who he is paired with. Eddie Brock would give the other team useless protect tiles every match. 

wymtime

Daredevil217 said:

Vhailorx said:

wymtime said:

@IceIX I would love to hear about your experience play testing carnage.  Most of the comments from this thread are down on carnage.  When you play tested him how did you feel he worked well in he 5* tier.

also in general are the devs going to go back to some older 5* that are under performing and look to buff some of their stats.  I say this because from a 1st impression of Carnage if if each of his powers were just a little stronger he would be a really solid to good 5*. I personally like his mechanics and concepts and feel with a slight buff he would find more use in the game.

any additional insight would be greatly appreciated.

I don't want to speak for anyone, and i would like any available insight too, but i think we have to recognize that this request puts IceIX in a difficult position. 

Carnage's value on mpq rosters has a fairly direct link to Demi/d3's financial bottom line.  So offering any personal opinion whatsoever is subject to at least an appearance of conflict.  (If ice save Carnage is great, can we trust that as anything but marketing hype?  And if ice thinks Carnage is wasp-level bad, doesn't saying as much publicly put him in an uncomfortable position, especially before the character is even released?  Trash talking your own product before release is not generally the best business strategy).

I don’t think “he’s awesome!” or “he’s trash!” is what people are looking for. Whether a true opinion or not, it doesn’t provide much insight. 

My thought process is that they did extensive testing on the character and obviously think he’s good. If not, I’m sure they would have buffed him. So if they think he’s good and we all think he’s trash, maybe there are some synergies, ways to play him, or opponents he works well against that we’re not seeing. Yes, we have numbers, but they had the opportunity to play him a bunch, and so by virtue of that have a much different experience of the character. I’m not looking for “good” or “bad” feedback. Just honest. What were you going for and do you feel you hit the mark. 

@Vhailorx I think what Daredevil articulated is more of what I was looking for.  I agree with you it might put ice in a tight spot, but I also think when a new character comes out and the initial impression of the character is poor an explanation from a developer on at they were looking to accomplish and how they feel they accomplished it with synergy examples can be good.  Even if they came back and said we tried X and it was super OP so we went with Y and gave an explanation would be good communication fro the Dev’s.

jp1

There is no way they are going to quantify the value of a newly released 5*. 

That spells trouble for them no matter how you cut it. Even if they had permission to do so, it would inevitably cause backlash on the forums and elsewhere from those who don’t agree. It’s lose/lose.

wymtime

RickOShay said:

Taking a PvP look at Carnage vs a Thorkoye (non-Gritty) team, where the 3* essential does not spam special tiles: 

Turn 1: Make any match, while prioritizing red

Turn 2: No enemy special tiles are out, so Carnage creates 2x 195 enemy attack tiles
(assume you can't match them away, and you probably don't want to yet. Black and Red are at cover level 5)

Turn 3: Beginning of turn, there's only 2 enemy attack tiles (eAT) are out, so create 2x 195 attacks again (assume you still cannot / don't want to match them yet)

Turn 4: If all 4 of these eAT's are present, you now earn a free random match and then create a 322 Strike tile. Now make your own match, but do you want to avoid matching eAT's away? You might, since the Strike tile and a free match may be more valuable than an additional friendly attack tile (fAT).
(keep in mind that if the enemy matches away their own attack tiles you will be kept waiting for more to earn the Strike and free match)

Turn 5a:
Carnage makes another free match if you kept 4x eAT on the board. Did that free match take away an eAT? Or, can you? Yay, Create 1x 168 fAT to compliment the additional Strike tile you now have.
Turn 5b: 
Perhaps you still managed to avoid matching away all eAT's. You will then only have 2x 322 Strikes now.
(green must be at cover level 3 if red and black are at level 5)

Turn 6:  By now you've certainly gotten 6 red AP, right? Well that's fine but you still don't want to fire Blood Fued since you only have 2 or 3 special tiles.
The enemy has 3 or 4 attack tiles at the beginning of this turn. So Carnage either creates 2 additional for them for 5 total - or - you earn a free match and a Strike tile. Try to match one away buddy! Even weak attack tiles carry Strike tile damage with them.

Turn 7:  Did you match one away? Whether you did or not, Carnage is probably earning a free turn here. But, even with the added Strike tiles you may Still have just 3 special tiles out, since things can easily get matched away.. and you are playing with a / 5* Carnage! \ on your team. 
Now, match that purple attack tile away, that should help a lot!!

Turn 8: By now you're learning that it's quite difficult for your 5* Carnage to get 4x friendly specials on the board to fire his cheap red ability to full effect. Did you bring Thor along? That's only 2 active damage abilities unless you run amazingly well on 21 yellow.


*Important note: You need to understand the importance of the eAT and fAT acronyms, and that this was written during my lunch break. 

A different piece to look at is if you bring 1/2 health DD as your partner.

turn 2 get a DD strike tile and match 2 attack tile.

turn 3 get 2nd DD strike and match an attack tile.  Now 2 friendly and 2 enemy attack tiles.  Player gets bonus 2000 damage roughly per turn.

turn 4+ only match an enemy special tile if you have 6 red.  The reason why is you will drop to 3 enemy attack tiles and that will force Carnage to produce 2 enemy attack tiles letting you fire red for AOE damage.

finally you goal should be to build up enough purple to stun Thor, but have enough strike and attack tiles on the board to kill him in 4 matches.  Remember you will get extra strike tiles from the enemy attack k tiles and DD passive damage will count on matches and on the attack tiles.  Carnage’s red should also allow DD to go back below 50% health to produce more strike tiles but should heal quickly.

this is my ideal partner but I really do wish his strike tiles and attack tiles were bigger as DD is really the primary damage dealer on this team with his strike tiles at around 800.

Vhailorx

jp1 said:

There is no way they are going to quantify the value of a newly released 5*. 

That spells trouble for them no matter how you cut it. Even if they had permission to do so, it would inevitably cause backlash on the forums and elsewhere from those who don’t agree. It’s lose/lose.

This is a more concise statement of what I was trying to express. 

Asking this question puts Demi/d3 in a bad position and gets the players basically 0 useful feedback.  So IMO it's better to focus on seeking other feedback from Demi/d3 in the pre-/new release phase that doesn't require them to play this sort of lose/lose game.

Khanwulf

Polares said:

BriMan2222 said:

Man, I was hoping to break open my hoard (almost 400 pulls currently) when the latest legends pack is Prof X, carnage, whoever comes after carnage but it looks like I'm gonna have to keep hoarding and hope the 3 after carnage are worth pulling for.

Man, you have enough pulls to get the 3 x-men now, still have some CPs afterwards, start hoarding again, ignore Carnage and then get the 3 after him :P

This is my new plan: pull until I get PX purple. Then stop until Carnag5 leaves LL.

Hi Devs. Thou hast failed.

--Khanwulf

BuzzedLightbeer

Khanwulf said:

Polares said:

BriMan2222 said:

Man, I was hoping to break open my hoard (almost 400 pulls currently) when the latest legends pack is Prof X, carnage, whoever comes after carnage but it looks like I'm gonna have to keep hoarding and hope the 3 after carnage are worth pulling for.

Man, you have enough pulls to get the 3 x-men now, still have some CPs afterwards, start hoarding again, ignore Carnage and then get the 3 after him :P

This is my new plan: pull until I get PX purple. Then stop until Carnag5 leaves LL.

Hi Devs. Thou hast failed.

--Khanwulf

I documented my 300+ pull results in a separate thread, but after receiving 46 of these latest legends, I had a fully covered Storm, a level 454 Iceman...and a 7/0/9 Prof X.  That purple is awfully elusive...