Captain Hammertime and his broken friends

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Comments

  • halirin
    halirin Posts: 327 Mover and Shaker
    edited September 2019
    I thought cap wouldn't trigger his 5 countdown tiles if you just target him. Is there a reason that doesn't work? It's like fighting valkyrie or xfdp.

    Edit: nvm, I see only the damage reduction works that way. 
  • ElReyFelix
    ElReyFelix Posts: 104 Tile Toppler
    Has anyone had success countering the new cap? 
  • jredd
    jredd Posts: 1,387 Chairperson of the Boards
    PiMacleod said:
    I see this as a breath of fresh air for now....

    How many topics about 'boring PvP climbs' are there? 

    Its all thorkoye...

    Or

    Its all gritty....

    Or

    Its all grittyshop...

    You get the point.

    If a new character made 5* Hawkeye relevant again, awesome.  If its a new problem to work around, even better.

    Besides, theres a mechanic ive been waiting for the devs to implement into a character.  A reactionary "When an enemy countdown reaches 0,..." sort of ability.  Maybe itll happen soon...
    problem is, the only 'work around' is the skip button. that's why folk are upset with bishop and now cap. there are no in-match work arounds, strategies or characters that provide an effective counter to their jump in front mechanics on a match 3. 

    i can see why people like using them. but it kinda boggles the mind when people don't understand why they are such a big problem right now.
  • jp1
    jp1 Posts: 1,081 Chairperson of the Boards
    I don’t have 5* Hawkeye even remotely close enough to be viable, so I’m mostly sad I’ll be missing the fun on this one.

    I think strong defensive teams are nice.

  • PiMacleod
    PiMacleod Posts: 1,786 Chairperson of the Boards
    Honestly, i think this is all on purpose.

    What do people like?  No, im not talking about the actual players that LIKE a puzzle.  Heh, what do you think this game is?!  ;)

    People like instant power and gratification.  Look no further than Thorkoye... The first passive team where you can sit and win.  Sure, you need 1/2 health Thor, but thats a small thing to ask.  And sure, it isnt a guaranteed win on defense.  But the point is, people loved the easy win (and still do).

    Many Okoye combos exist outside of that... But enter Gritty.  Another version of the same thing: easy power.  Sure, it plays different... If you can call it 'playing'.  The mechanic is different, but its the same idea: do nearly nothing and win (unless a bad board thwarts you).

    Bishop came along, and REALLY stirred up everything.  And supposedly its "working as intended".  Juggs is great.  And some other 4*s and 5*s are good or great... Some are not.  Not every dart can hit the bullseye.

    Point is, i think theyre releasing characters like this on purpose.  Easy to use and easy to abuse.  Defeatable when you figure it out, but not easily. 

    From a developers perspective, if this is what players like (see Thorkoye once again), why not double down, and create more of it?  Different flavors of the same thing... Easy power... At the cost of chasing resources via time or cash.

    Sure, maybe im wrong.  Maybe this is just wild speculation.  Im just taking my observations from games in the past.  Generally when players like to abuse power, and its within the developers expectations, the developers will continue with it.  My first examples that come to mind are Gears of War 2 and 3, and Overwatch.  In GoW, the shotgun (gnasher) was way overpowered and a starting weapon!  It was highly abused.  But when people complained about OTHER weapons doing too good, those got nerfed... Not the gnasher.

    In Overwatch, its characters like Genji and Hanzo... High damage and easy output powers, with multiple options for mobility.  Other characters with even smaller HP pools will get nerfed, and big tankier targets get nerfed down ... But do something about the characters that can one hit kill with certain skills, and have high mobility options?  Never.  People enjoy abusing them, and people even enjoy watching their highlights!  

    Sorry for the long post.  Didnt set out to put it like this... But i guess to make a long post short, this is normal to me.  Sure, id rather the developers do whats good for the game as a whole, but when you have an audience practically crying out for easy, big damage options, with practically no effort, in order to shorten the amount of play time required per event, what do you expect them to do?  Theyre gonna do what the majority wants, and make money while doing it.
  • dkffiv
    dkffiv Posts: 1,039 Chairperson of the Boards
    JRYUART said:
    IMO, the problems people are encountering aren’t with supposedly broken characters like Bishop or WCap.  It’s with people unwilling to accept the following ;

    1. It’s no longer a guaranteed win 99% of the time as it was when using Thorkoye or the team of their choice 

    2. The amount of time a player is “out” and unshielded is uncomfortable for those who play the bunny game and expect to have a clean 1-3+ hop before safely shielding. 

    3. See number #1 with the addition of people who are complaining , *hating* the fact that might have to use more healthpacks than they are used to. 

    There is literally a whole generation of players who think that the gist of this game isn’t about strategy, speed and matching .  Instead, they have been playing a different game more akin to “tag” where winning a match is a foregone conclusion and the goal is not to get hit on a hop.

    Now that the devs have smartly introduced new toolkits that are designed to counter some established metas (Saber/Okoye counters Gritty, random opponent dmg team counters Thorkoye , etc) instead of outright nerfing , those who are playing the tag game aren’t liking it.  

    Winning isn’t supposed to always happen.  God forbid that one might have to work harder and smarter to get rewards/placement.  

    Btw, I have a mature 5* roster, have used the 4cap/HE/JJ team and I still get reds, and not always from more powerful rosters.  Mainly from opponents I know who are confident enough to float for long periods of time who put the work in.  Respects to them.




    This is one of the dumbest posts I've ever read.   

    In the last 2 "Class of ..." PvPs there have been nothing but Grittyshop teams clogging queues.  Most are small (350s Kitty, 280s Bishop) and I was forced to clobber them over and over again for 5 points each.  Overall points in the event were low because people with comparable rosters couldn't hit them and every loss drains points from the shard.

    I guess I'm smarter than everyone else because my 5* can kill a tiny Bishop before he can do anything?

    Also, those people floating for long periods of time are suppressing the shard and intentionally removing points from the system.  They put the work in to make sure everyone else has a worse time.  
  • Warbringa
    Warbringa Posts: 1,299 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited September 2019
    shap328 said:
    I don’t get it. People have complained about Bishop forever and now there’s a legit counter and people complain about the counter?

    The top complaint is lack of variety in PVP and now all these characters are being released specifically designed to break some of the meta. It’s forcing people to take time to pick their teams or opponents instead of steam rolling with one team. 

    Operating as designed, IMO. 
    I believe the concern is that now we just have another BIshop-like character on our hands.  The mechanic of jumping in front and creating AP combos basically means you don't get to play a match game since the match is over in the first few rounds for many players without the combo or a valid way to combat it. 

    I have not yet seen the team myself but I can see where it is a very powerful combo.  Once again the concerning issue is much too quick of AP generation & damage for a defensive team, just like the complaints against Bishop & Gritty?

    I wonder if Bishop plus IW would be able to create enough blue to just lock all of those countdown tiles in place in force bubbles, in theory.  I would think someone like Kitty or OML would be a great third for that pair with all of the tiles and powers IW would be producing/firing from Bishop's blue.
  • grunth13
    grunth13 Posts: 608 Critical Contributor
    So,  someone said that worthy cap is the counter for bishop, but this was the problem that us veterans were saying about bringing a counter vs small nerf-- it will bring an even more broken character.   Bishop just needed 1 thing changed,  he doesn't accrue ap and damage doesn't apply to his passive if he's already in front.   That simple.  Instead we are now going down the rabbit hole of increasingly broken characters to counter previous broken characters.   Maybe this is the new way to monetize, but i feel it will be like @LLohm mentioned,  more hoarding,  less spending. 
  • grunth13
    grunth13 Posts: 608 Critical Contributor
    edited September 2019
    JRYUART said:
    Say what you want, every time a team comes around that interrupts the comfort zone of those *used* to winning, they get all huffy as if an absolute win is part of the equation.  

    Every time a disruptor like Kitty, Bishop, Juggs, WCap,etc come around, people lose their minds because if you go against these teams, it's no longer a guarantee that one will win *AND* win at the cadence that people have gotten accustomed to during the Thorkoye meta era. 

    How many times do people (somehwhat) jokingly give advice that the best way to beat Bishop teams is to "skip".  What's the consequence of trying an innovative new team to try and beat these new ability combinations?  You might lose 3 hpks?  Big deal, try again with another team in your roster.  

    Previous to 4Cap's release, the last time I used 5* Clint was....I don't even remember.  I personally welcome challenge and welcome the devs giving us more opportunities to explore the puzzle aspect of this game.  

    Ever think that the devs may WANT to democratize the game by offering characters with new power sets so that it will narrow the divide between those two roster tiers?  

    My post just calls out what most people that have gotten meta complacent don't want to admit - it's not that these new characters are flawed - maybe it's because they just want the grind to stay the same as long as they themselves have an easy time getting what they want from the game without adapting.  

    And shard suppression ftw, the tag game with grills and coordinated hops from early in the event all the way til end amongst large groups of players who AREN'T EVEN IN THE SAME ALLIANCE to inflate points so that the placement scores are waaaaaay above 1200 is silly.  Last I checked, PVP was a competition between players and alliances.  Not Cooking Mama featuring sharks and remoras.    


    Let's be honest,  the tag team play will be affected by this by exactly 0%.  I've scored 7k in 1 pvp event, and I've suppressed the highest scoring slice to 1.4k.  So i know a bit about both sides of the coin.   The bishop and worthy cap teams are not fast... period.   They will not be that great trying to suppress points since the guys playing tag team are hitting teams that have none or minimal defense.   That means the tag team play will win 3 to 4 matches in the time that a bishop and worthy cap teams wins 1 match.   The only thing these that these 2 characters do is make playing against them boring and random.  Yes they're a good amount of players who float with these teams,  but they aren't suppressing the slice; they are just just holding on to their points until they are ready to climb or clogging the mmr.  The tag teamers will maybe have to use 1 to 2 more shields to get above these guys so that they can start grilling and then we are off to the races.   As for the other point if your post-- the grind of this game, well,  no one grinds harder in this game then the tag teamers because they are on line and in this game constantly to q the highest point grills for their next hop.  They are constantly hopping so that they can have the highest score for the season (remember,  the stones are only available through placement in pvp season eventhough they can't be used in pvp).  They burn through more shields in a season then most players use in a year.   So it's not the grind that's annoying them,  it's the fact that it's an unsatisfactory match play that is random.   In a match 3 game,  you are being penalized to match 3 from a whole tier.
  • Tony_Foot
    Tony_Foot Posts: 1,814 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited September 2019
    Can we have old 3bit back too? Someone to help the 3* tier and what was so bad with him that he got nerfed yet today’s game these ones are fine?

    And can I have a HE vault please. HP/CPis waiting.
  • fight4thedream
    fight4thedream GLOBAL_MODERATORS Posts: 1,973 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited September 2019
    LLohm said:
    I agree wholeheartedly with what @JRYUART is saying. But I do think a flip could occur where people stop desiring the ultimate end goal of having maxed champed 5*. 5* acquisition in my opinion is a big revenue driver as it creates desire to own and the path to that is limited by randomness with no sure way to acquire, unlike 4* covers and below, whose covers can be earned in both progression and placement rewards.

    Since Worthy Cap and Bishop are allowing simple setups which can take down 550 5* with relative ease, does chasing 5* hard even make sense anymore or should people stop at just champed 5* status?

    This creates a muddying of goals in my opinion. The top tier is less desired. People will likely go into serious deep hoarding to wait for the unicorn which will give them a good ability to play their game with power.

    Hoarding definitely takes away a lot of desire to spend. Did the devs in their attempt to bridge the 4* and 5* tier destroy their own revenue by taking away their most prized and supposedly coveted tier? The periods of lackluster 5* releases does not help.

    i argue that devs should instead release far more awesome 5* designs to drive their revenue instead of reducing their best tier to trophy tier.
    I don't think I follow your train your of thought.

    The people that stand to benefit most from these changes are big spenders. A player with a big Thanos and Black Panther are going to have a field day with low champed level Cap and Bishop teams in regular PvP. Players with a high level Surfer will also get to dust off the Skyrider and have a reason to use him in PvP. A high level Dr. Strange might also prove to be a relevant threat. 

    And perhap most significantly, the people who will be able to champ and level these 4* characters the fastest are big spenders. I have already heard there are big league players looking forward to max champ Worthy Cap since he will be a good deterrent against people running Okoye/Thor.

    If anything, it should be even more enticing to use resources now instead of hoard since max champing a 4* is much easier to accomplish than to do with a 5*. This is especially true if a player lacks a proper counter character. 

    Furthermore, Bishop and Worthy Cap are not going to be able to take down a decent 5* team on their own (although I suppose a skilled player might be able to do it with the right 4* partner). They do need a decent offensive character to actually win and their best partners are in the 5* tier.  In fact, if there is any team that can be blamed for making having a maxed champ 5* irrelevant it's the Okoye/Thor, specifically the Deluxe version where Okoye tanks all her colors. 

    To put things in perspective, Post-Gambit we have gone from:

    Phase 1: Okoye/Thor meta
    Phase 2: Okoye/Thor  and  Kitty/4* Grocket meta  (with Black Suit Spidey counter)
    Phase 3: Okoye/Thor, Kitty/4* Grocket, JJ/Bishop and Hawkeye/Worthy Cap  (with Black Suit Spidey, Silver Surfer counters) 

    We are going from a meta where one team could beat all teams and many teams could beat that one team to a meta of diversification where no one team can beat all teams and counter characters play a more significant role. 

    I personally think in terms of game play and design this is a great move but I know there are players that will not enjoy this meta change. However, I fail to see how this would disincentivize a player who is a big spender as they will most likely have the roster and resources to thrive in this new meta enviornment. 

    Those that will benefit most from this meta change:

    1. Whales with a strong (500+) deep roster. They will be able to max champ 4* meta shifters faster than anyone else and will be able to handle 4* meta shifters better than anyone else because they will have high level counter characters. 

    2. Sharks with a decent level strength roster and who have access to counter characters and play competively so are able to get 4* meta shifter covers faster than most of the player base.

    3. 4* players who happen to have one or two 5* characters that partners well with a 4*. 

    Those that are at a disadvantage from this change:

    1. 5* players who do not have access to proper counter characters. They will find matches against specialized 5*/4* teams frustrating, if not outright unwinnable. 

    2. 5* players who preferred the simplicity of soft Okoye/Thor meta. They will find the inability to speed through matches annoying. 

    3. 5* players whose roster is comprised almost entirely of low level 5* champs.

    Those that this meta change will probably have little effect on either way:

    1. Players in battle chats and/or shield check rooms. They always find a way. 

    As for your concerns regarding hoarding, I don't think this will cause more people to hoard. People hoard to maximize their advantage but if the current meta includes a new 4* and such player has no means to deal with such a meta, they are putting themselves at a serious disadvantage hoarding. Obviously this is roster dependant. 

    Finally, if the devs are playing their cards right, they are cultivating a need in the 5* tier. While Silver Surfer is a legitimate counter to both Bishop and 4* Cap, many see him as lackluster due to power creep. I personally would prefer they buffed him but the more likely scenario is they release a character with a decent powerset that counters one or both. 

    I do agree that the 5* tier has been less-inspired in terms of character design and hope they do more interesting things with the tier sometime in the near future. 
  • fight4thedream
    fight4thedream GLOBAL_MODERATORS Posts: 1,973 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited September 2019
    OJSP said:
    fight4thedream said:
    If anything, it should be even more enticing to use resources now instead of hoard since max champing a 4* is much easier to accomplish than to do with a 5*. This is especially true if a player lacks a proper counter character. 

    -----
    I personally think in terms of game play and design this is a great move but I know there are players that will not enjoy this meta change. However, I fail to see how this would disincentivize a player who is a big spender as they will most likely have the roster and resources to thrive in this new meta environment. 

    -----
    As for your concerns regarding hoarding, I don't think this will cause more people to hoard. People hoard to maximize their advantage but if the current meta includes a new 4* and such player has no means to deal with such a meta, they are putting themselves at a serious disadvantage hoarding. Obviously this is roster dependent. 
    I agree with most of your post. But, if he gets nerfed in the future, people will be upset. On the other hand, if a lot of players  spend to get lvl 370 Cap ASAP, maybe he won't be nerfed. Catch-22.

    It's the previous history of nerfs that is a problem for spenders (arguably not the major ones, because they would probably spend nonetheless). Some people would probably decide to stay in 4* land and keep hoarding (and it's entirely their right to do so. Nothing says they can't do it).
    This is entirely an assumption on my part, but it seems the current dev team is not interested in nerfs. If they were, Okoye/Thor would have been hit with the nerf bat a long time ago. I think they are attempting to find ways to deal with Okoye/Thor without having to outright nerf them.  Considering their reported response on Bishop, I don't think we should expect a Worthy Cap nerf anytime in the near future. But you never know.

    Btw, thanks for your Dr. Strange tip (on page 1). It did prove effective against Hawkeye/JJ/Worthy Cap. I used Surfer (or maybe Bishop, possible I used both for different matches)/Thor/Strange. @OJSP


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