Captain Hammertime and his broken friends

Xair

the problem is that mmr is determined by champion levels, and when u introduce low level meta chars, u cause the players to have to deal with meta teams from lower rankings then you would otherwise.

CharlieCroker

HoundofShadow said:

I don't think there are players playing PvP 24/7. What you are suggesting is the worst case scenario. Most people here knows that there are timings in PvP: timing where very few players climb at the same time as you, which means you don't get attack often.

I hit 1000 often in PvPs and I don't get 2 losses for every win I get even though I put out unboosted champed 4*. 

After going through both Bishop and Cap Worthy threads calling for nerfs, there are a few common themes or rules that some certain group of players created for themselves and sort of expect the devs to follow those rules when creating new 4*/5* characters. Here are the rules "created":

1) 4* characters should be easily bulldozed by 5* characters and not create much interference to their 5* team, or 4* + 5* team should be taken out easily.

2) If there are meta teams, the counter team shouldn't consist of 5* characters belonging to the non-meta tier. For example, Silver Surfer is an automatic solution to Bishop due to his immunity to stun. However, we get 101 reasons why Silver Surfer is not a counter. The core reason (apart from dilution) is always: if we put up this team to counter that meta team, our defensive team will be weak and we will get attack often. Therefore, this is not a counter team.

3) X teams used in PvP should end a match within Y turns or within Z minutes. If not, that character or team is weak or considered non-meta.

4) If there is new meta team, the obvious counter team(s) should be made available immediately instead of having to wait X months or weeks to champ them.

5) Healthpack usages should be kept to the minimum.

On the other hand,

A) They are worried about how 4* players can transition to 5* plays with dilution in the game but see point 1 above.

2) They are always feedbacking about how classic characters are difficult to champ but see point 2&3 above. It's as if they will use them more frequently than meta team once they champ them all. 

The point is, these people are in the minority and expect the devs to abide by their rules and anytime you find the above rules broken, expect displeasure.

Unfortunately I have to work today so don't have time to dissect your post challenging your assertions about a "certain group of players".

Instead I'd suggest you re-read these threads and pay attention to the genuine reasoned concerns some players have raised that do not fit your agenda that anything veteran players say can be discounted and ignored don't because they are an evil minority who just want to steamroll all lower tiers.

I've said this multiple times in several threads - for me it comes down to 2 things.  The mechanics of Worthy and Bishop are broken whereby a simple match 3 from a 5* and occasionally a boosted 4* will trigger their passives.  And more importantly they just suck the fun out of a game.

bluewolf

@Dhaunas

Your approach to PVP (climbing at the end to 900 ish) kind of negates some of your points about running teams made up of counters.

Of course you can hit lots of random people at the end with a non-meta team. You are benefiting from all the players who have been playing and building points in the shard for 2 1/2 days, and climbing in the middle of the free for all zombie horde who are chasing (mostly) 900.  You are far too low, point wise, for the top placement players who are shielded to bother with.

You could run just about any team with 5's in it you like and be mostly ignored at that point in the event until you get 700+ and even then most players are desperately looking for higher points than you will offer.

In a way this is a matter of style, but if you are going to play the way the devs would like (I think) you are supposed to be joining the event early and playing throughout.  If you joined even 12 hours before the end you would see that your counter-teams would be eaten alive and you'd see your points evaporate if you left them out unshielded.

The players most upset about these weird Make a Match and Suffer teams are those who try to gradually climb, or are hopping, and are building the points in the shard that you are taking massive advantage of as a late climber.  Which is your right but your true argument as "everything is fine since I can use a bunch of counter teams at the end of the slice to climb to 900".

Dhaunas

BigSoftieFF said:

Dhaunas said:

As far as being "fine" for PvE, let's be honest... PvE generally doesn't require as much thought / strategy as pvp does.

Please tell me this is sarcasm?

It's not, but let me clarify.

In PvE, most of the time, I'm able to run a specific team, built for speed, all the way through the normal nodes w/o use of health packs. The essential nodes most often allow the same thing: the essential plus 2 of your preferred speed clearers. The 5* essential, if it uses one of the preferred characters you are already using, allows you to put another strong speed character in.

Rarely, events will require strategy for one specific node. And while there is a strategy for trying to attain max points in a PvE event, it's relatively easy to achieve -- the differences between those who are clearing optimally exist mainly due to clear speed of those above you being more efficient.


PvP requires more thought / strategy, even when not facing Bishop / Worthy teams, because you have to not only think about the current match you are facing, but also about other players targeting you -- which you have no control over. You don't have to strategize to minimize point loss due to other players in PvE. Also, as mentioned before, particularly with the advent of Bishop / Worthy, you are forced to change up your teams often, depending on who you are challenging -- all the while keeping your ability to defend while doing so in mind.

Warbringa

Flawed character design is the issue. This takes into account actual cover powers and potential combinations with other characters.  Just as in other "collectible" card game etc, cards (in MPQ, covers) are designed and then found out to be flawed after release.  In card games those cards (or combinations resulting from said card) are banned if they impact the game too much.  In this case, the devs made 4* characters to counter other 4* characters and didn't anticipate the impact those characters would have throughout other major parts of the game.  They refuse to address their mistake for either monetary reasons or pride. It will eventually kill the PvP side of the game, which is already struggling based on low point slices across most of the board. The idea of counter characters are ok but the way the devs made them create an unreasonable amount of AP at the start of matches is the problem.  Flawed character design.  

dkffiv

As a thought experiment I came up with a 3/4* character that creates a special tile at the start of the game, much like Gwenpool's green/gun tile.  When matched or destroyed, it would immediatly cast mega Whales, winning the match.

I have a feeling that the people defending Bishop/Hammer Cap would claim this is a bold and innovative new character and that its perfectly fine to lose on turn 0 or 1 occassionally because the devs intended it to be that way and it gives 2* players a chance to beat a team of 550s.

AXP_isme

dkffiv said:

As a thought experiment I came up with a 3/4* character that creates a special tile at the start of the game, much like Gwenpool's green/gun tile.  When matched or destroyed, it would immediatly cast mega Whales, winning the match.

I have a feeling that the people defending Bishop/Hammer Cap would claim this is a bold and innovative new character and that its perfectly fine to lose on turn 0 or 1 occassionally because the devs intended it to be that way and it gives 2* players a chance to beat a team of 550s.

Why stop there? Reductio ad absurdum could easily carry that to a 1*. 

fight4thedream

AXP_isme said:

dkffiv said:

As a thought experiment I came up with a 3/4* character that creates a special tile at the start of the game, much like Gwenpool's green/gun tile.  When matched or destroyed, it would immediatly cast mega Whales, winning the match.

I have a feeling that the people defending Bishop/Hammer Cap would claim this is a bold and innovative new character and that its perfectly fine to lose on turn 0 or 1 occassionally because the devs intended it to be that way and it gives 2* players a chance to beat a team of 550s.

Why stop there? Reductio ad absurdum could easily carry that to a 1*. 

For the record, I am still miffed that they nerfed 1* Venom's Devour ability when they released Miles.  Some of the most fun I had playing the game was getting that ability to go off against 5* characters and Galactus, too, using two 1* characters, Venom and Spidey, usually with Silver Surfer to tank. It was a lot trickier back then to keep 6 web tiles on the board while trying to gather black AP but it was good times!  Just goes to show different people have different tastes when it comes to PvP and what they want from the game in general.

Foot note: 1* Venom's Devour ability has been changed a few times over the course of the game. Initially it was possible to devour a whole enemy team, although it was quite difficult to pull off. Then it was reduced to insta-killing a single target. The conditions to pull of this feat required 6 web tiles to be on the board and 12 black AP.  

dkffiv

AXP_isme said:

dkffiv said:

As a thought experiment I came up with a 3/4* character that creates a special tile at the start of the game, much like Gwenpool's green/gun tile.  When matched or destroyed, it would immediatly cast mega Whales, winning the match.

I have a feeling that the people defending Bishop/Hammer Cap would claim this is a bold and innovative new character and that its perfectly fine to lose on turn 0 or 1 occassionally because the devs intended it to be that way and it gives 2* players a chance to beat a team of 550s.

Why stop there? Reductio ad absurdum could easily carry that to a 1*. 

A 1*/2* could die turn 1 and the ability wouldn't work.  3* is borderline, would need to be beefy.

If we want absurdity in the opposite direction, you could have a 5* Apocalypse.  One of his abilities can be "Only the Strong Survive" - deal an additional 1000% damage for every tier higher he is (10x to 4*, 20x to 3*, 30x to 2*, 40x to 1*).  Would make crushing Juggernaut in PvE a ton of fun.  Give him Rescue level damage (~1k-3k nuke before tier difference multiplication) which would make him pretty **** against other 5*s but devastating against 4*s.  Could also make him take less from lower tiers as well.

ammenell

you just want to see the world burn... 

DAZ0273

You guys do realise that the people with these already Champed Worthy Cap's and level 330+ Bishop's are not likely to actually be 4* players, right? The people causing you problems are clearly 5* players - your own peers! You can come crush my 1 cover Hammer Cap with Uber Apocalypse if you like though, lol!

AXP_isme

Cap hammertime is another one of those characters with unintuitive scaling on his mechanics. It always bugged me that as levels went up the thresholds for triggering event went up too. 

Thing is a good example. He’s only worth using for damage when boosted, his damage to AP ratio was left behind by newer 4*s looooooong ago. However when he’s boosted it’s much more difficult to get him to create protect tiles because the amount of damage that needs to be dealt to trigger his passive goes up and up and up. 

For these types if defensive mechanic might it not make more sense to have the trigger at some absolute value rather than at some function of character level. That applies to all of them from 3* hulk and cap marvel through to Valkyrie, thing, bishop, hammertime...

Surely keeping under-leveled versions of these characters is not the idea and yet if you could protect your Valkyrie by not having her tank anything you would be better off never pumping iso into her. 

Seems this turned into a bigger post than I expected. TL;DR - trigger on damage passives scaling with level could be implemented in a more intuitive way. 

AXP_isme

Yeah. It’s not a new complaint. But then neither is moaning about bishop or hammertime 😉

bluewolf

The good news is that you can pretty easily avoid leveling the JIF (Jump in Front) people by not bonusing them!  Dilution is a feature, not a bug.

bluewolf

Today I took on a Hammercap/HE team in Taskmaster's PVP.  Used a mirror team, thought I had it worked out.  Was planning to chase green/yellow/black and not set off Broken.

BUT:  I stupidly used my "boost all damage" boost and even matching off colors (not HE) triggered Cap.

So dumb!

And yes, this means that using boosts is a bad strategy vs Mr. Oversensitive.

BoyWonder1914

I've been away from the game for a minute (again lol) so pardon my ignorance, but is Captain Hammertime Juggs or Worthy Cap? 
 
Because BRUH. 

I jumped into a Watch & Learn match against Clint/Worthy Cap without reading Cap's powers, and I lie to you not, the match was over after I made literally ONE move. There was a HFH deal I think a month ago now that featured 3 Shuri covers for $19.99, and needing precisely that to finish Okoye, I dropped that $20 like it was hot. The anniversary double iso finally allowed me to champ her, so I go into this PVP a freshly champed Taskmaster and brand-spanking new Thorkoye, thinking I'm all that and a bag of chips with my choices of dips and a soda. 

I select Cap and bring him to the front, thinking it's best to deal with the unknowns first. I make a match, and the board suddenly has 1-turn CDs popping up. They begin to resolve on the AIs turn, and I watch dumbfounded as Clint/Cap ability banners pop up on the screen one after another, and the red/blue ap reserves of the enemy team go up to ungodly levels. Realizing this isn't going to go well for me, I attempt to retreat. The button doesn't respond. I go, "Hmm, that's weird.....the game only doesn't let me do that when my entire team is about to die". My soul leaves my body as I watch my 50K health Thor just get pounded to oblivion, and I rage quit the app before I have to watch the rest of my team suffer the same fate. A great lesson in humility was learned this day. 

Kolence

@BoyWonder1914
Broken Cap notwithstanding... you can still minimize the app in the middle of (a long) AI turn even if doesn't respond to tapping the back button. Once you return to it, the game is paused anyway and you can retreat. 

Chrynos1989

BoyWonder1914 said:

I've been away from the game for a minute (again lol) so pardon my ignorance, but is Captain Hammertime Juggs or Worthy Cap? 
 
Because BRUH. 

I jumped into a Watch & Learn match against Clint/Worthy Cap without reading Cap's powers, and I lie to you not, the match was over after I made literally ONE move. There was a HFH deal I think a month ago now that featured 3 Shuri covers for $19.99, and needing precisely that to finish Okoye, I dropped that $20 like it was hot. The anniversary double iso finally allowed me to champ her, so I go into this PVP a freshly champed Taskmaster and brand-spanking new Thorkoye, thinking I'm all that and a bag of chips with my choices of dips and a soda. 

I select Cap and bring him to the front, thinking it's best to deal with the unknowns first. I make a match, and the board suddenly has 1-turn CDs popping up. They begin to resolve on the AIs turn, and I watch dumbfounded as Clint/Cap ability banners pop up on the screen one after another, and the red/blue ap reserves of the enemy team go up to ungodly levels. Realizing this isn't going to go well for me, I attempt to retreat. The button doesn't respond. I go, "Hmm, that's weird.....the game only doesn't let me do that when my entire team is about to die". My soul leaves my body as I watch my 50K health Thor just get pounded to oblivion, and I rage quit the app before I have to watch the rest of my team suffer the same fate. A great lesson in humility was learned this day. 

Refers to Worthy Cap, if a certain amount of damage is done he jumps in front and creates 5 1 turn CD. In worst case, Barton ends up with 30 blue 30 red on his first turn and you are annihilated 

KGB

Chrynos1989 said:

Refers to Worthy Cap, if a certain amount of damage is done he jumps in front and creates 5 1 turn CD. In worst case, Barton ends up with 30 blue 30 red on his first turn and you are annihilated 

I'm not in 5* MMR so I can't say for sure if it will work, but with Grocket/Gamora both boosted to L390 for me, I ran my freshly champed 4* Juggs (L275) as my 3rd (middle character).

Thanks to the huge boost in strike tiles and Juggs passive, I was doing 10K damage to the front character from a single match (and Juggs tanks all but Black/Yellow even with the Guardian duo boosted) and 5K to the back characters. I was wiping out fully champed boosted 4* teams in the 380 range with 40K of health on turns 2 to 4 (depending on double matches/cascades).

If you get a double match 3 on turn 1 you might wipe out Hammercap before the CD's even resolve. Even if they do, you have may still win before any of Hawkeye's CD's go off (assuming the AI uses the AP on his powers).

KGB

Polares

This actually show that Devs learned NOTHING from Bishop (or they learnt the wrong lessons).

After all the problems with Bishop, they just released ANOTHER character with a jump in front mechanic that AGAIN breaks the game. At this point, I just think they don't care about the health of this game anymore and they just one the fast money coming from these characters.

Pretty sad, and pretty lame.