Captain Hammertime and his broken friends

dkffiv

DAZ0273 said:

You guys do realise that the people with these already Champed Worthy Cap's and level 330+ Bishop's are not likely to actually be 4* players, right? The people causing you problems are clearly 5* players - your own peers! You can come crush my 1 cover Hammer Cap with Uber Apocalypse if you like though, lol!

That's kinda the whole point.  Apocalypse would be a "solution" to this 4*/5* problem (like Bishop / Hammer cap are a "solution" to Rocket and Groot).  Devs never consider the consequences to their decisions and that's what causes problems.

DAZ0273

dkffiv said:

DAZ0273 said:

You guys do realise that the people with these already Champed Worthy Cap's and level 330+ Bishop's are not likely to actually be 4* players, right? The people causing you problems are clearly 5* players - your own peers! You can come crush my 1 cover Hammer Cap with Uber Apocalypse if you like though, lol!

That's kinda the whole point.  Apocalypse would be a "solution" to this 4*/5* problem (like Bishop / Hammer cap are a "solution" to Rocket and Groot).  Devs never consider the consequences to their decisions and that's what causes problems.

So (and no snark at all is intended here) your solution to a 5* problem (4* players rarely have these characters champed in short order and certainly not at the levels that are causing issues) is to create a 5* that crushes the tier below? Isn't that what 5* do normally? Now...put that in the hands of the non 5* playerbase who presumably wont need too many covers to embark upon their crushing (otherwise what is the point of an easy quick fix for the 5* players? If it takes them too long to get enough covers for it to deal with Bishop/Worthy Cap it is no useful fix at all) and you have simply recreated Gritty in a new form to clog up SHIELD Sim and possibly every other PvP out there! If you want 5* only participation PvP then this is the way to go!

fight4thedream

DAZ0273 said:

dkffiv said:

DAZ0273 said:

You guys do realise that the people with these already Champed Worthy Cap's and level 330+ Bishop's are not likely to actually be 4* players, right? The people causing you problems are clearly 5* players - your own peers! You can come crush my 1 cover Hammer Cap with Uber Apocalypse if you like though, lol!

That's kinda the whole point.  Apocalypse would be a "solution" to this 4*/5* problem (like Bishop / Hammer cap are a "solution" to Rocket and Groot).  Devs never consider the consequences to their decisions and that's what causes problems.

So (and no snark at all is intended here) your solution to a 5* problem (4* players rarely have these characters champed in short order and certainly not at the levels that are causing issues) is to create a 5* that crushes the tier below? Isn't that what 5* do normally? Now...put that in the hands of the non 5* playerbase who presumably wont need too many covers to embark upon their crushing (otherwise what is the point of an easy quick fix for the 5* players? If it takes them too long to get enough covers for it to deal with Bishop/Worthy Cap it is no useful fix at all) and you have simply recreated Gritty in a new form to clog up SHIELD Sim and possibly every other PvP out there! If you want 5* only participation PvP then this is the way to go!

This actually touches on a question I have been mulling over:

Should low level 450s champed 5* characters automatically be considered stronger than high level champed 4* characters?

I understand why most would assume the answer is yes considering that the 5* tier has a big jump in match damage and overall health but what this gap ended up causing is the obsolescence of the lower tiers for players who had entered in the 5* realm. However, this isn't the case with the other tiers.

A maxed champ 3* Iron First is probably comparable to the majority of 270 4* barring those with exceptionally useful talents just as a 2* champed Ares is probably comparable to most 166 3* characters.

I think this new generation of 4*s is meant to bridge that gap. The Juggernaut is a tank that takes 90% less match damage, Worthy Cap also reduces match damage by 35%, Bishop stuns the character with the highest match damage.

The problem is that the majority of players in the 5* tier tend to be at the lower end of the 5* pool, especially those who make it a point to try to champ every 5* character or have just recently entered the 5* tier and don't spend heavily on the game.

It is this group of players that these 4* bridge characters tend to most negatively affect. A high level Bishop with a 490 JJ shouldn't be much trouble for a player running a 550 Silver Surfer and Thanos or Thor team(barring a cascade of doom, of course). The problem is there are only a handful of players who have Silver Surfer that high and the game doesn't offer ways to acquire him in a speedy fashion.

Obviously, the dev team that decided to create this "gap" between 5* tier and the other tiers bears responsibility for this situation.  I don't know how much the dev team has changed since then, but it does seem clear that they are trying to expand the meta but these changes are adversely affecting the play experience of those who assumed the "gap" between tiers was set in stone.

I personally believe this movement towards bridging that gap is a good thing but I understand why others may beg to differ. Just as I think @BoyWonder1914's experience is actually a good thing. I believe one team really shouldn't be able to beat on every team under the One-Above-All. A player should lose for going into a match mindlessly, with no consideration for strategy or whether the team they are running is appropriate for the match.

I am happy that the wash-rinse-repeat method of play is no longer the de facto method for those competing in PvP. I understand that it limits a certain segment of players in the 5* tier and that the situation is less than ideal. There are legitimate issues to the current meta that need to be addressed.

But I think my preferred cup of tea would be a meta filled with a mix of 4*/5* and 5*/5*combo teams than simply one 5* team that is the answer to everything.

jredd

fight4thedream said:

 Bishop stuns the character with the highest match damage. 

Bishop stuns your whole team whilst any 5* characters that are with him crush you while you sit there and stare at you screen able to do nothing. i suggest you give it a try. if your current roster doesn't have any characters that will set him off then borrow someone else's phone and give it a whirl.  

thedarkphoenix

There just needs to be more characters that do certain things for certain effects.

Life a character is stunned  x character does this

Or if there are x amount of strike or attack tiles this character does that.

That way people could at least effectively counter and choice to fight whatever " strong" team is being run

jp1

Worthy Cap is really becoming annoying. I definitely understand how the Bishop crew feels. I think Worthy Cap is actually much worse though, like Gambit levels of power. 

Give me someone who steals AP passively when enemy countdowns expire please.

Daredevil217

jp1 said:

Worthy Cap is really becoming annoying. I definitely understand how the Bishop crew feels. I think Worthy Cap is actually much worse though, like Gambit levels of power. 

Give me someone who steals AP passively when enemy countdowns expire please.

So..... nerf??

C’mon. Join the team. I have a jersey with your name and number on it.

JP

#1

Looks good. 

Vins2

fight4thedream said:

This actually touches on a question I have been mulling over: 

Should low level 450s champed 5* characters automatically be considered stronger than high level champed 4* characters?

I understand why most would assume the answer is yes considering that the 5* tier has a big jump in match damage and overall health but what this gap ended up causing is the obsolescence of the lower tiers for players who had entered in the 5* realm. However, this isn't the case with the other tiers.

The barrier for entry into covering a 450 5* should be reason enough to say yes.  It takes 6+ months of hoarding and you're still subject to RNG giving you the right distribution of colors on the right character.  

jp1

Daredevil217 said:

jp1 said:

Worthy Cap is really becoming annoying. I definitely understand how the Bishop crew feels. I think Worthy Cap is actually much worse though, like Gambit levels of power. 

Give me someone who steals AP passively when enemy countdowns expire please.

So..... nerf??

C’mon. Join the team. I have a jersey with your name and number on it.

JP

#1

Looks good. 

Lol, as tempting as it is...I just can’t. With that said, I’ll quietly watch this one play out.

krakenoon

I haven't seen this mentioned, but Worthy Cap is probably one of the easiest characters to build in the current game. Fed by 3* Cap, which is fed by 2* Cap, which can be picked up a little more commonly than other 2*s. At least everyone can eventually get him rostered.

I do think that ALL characters with a damage received mechanic should be balanced, it seems like whatever they do will take an interesting character and bury it in the fields of nerfdom.

Honestly, i just wish I could progress to actually using 4* characters (even just a few) but between shards and HP throttling, I'll be stuck here in limbo with everyone else I see in the first rounds of PvP.

Taganov

All of these characters with damage received mechanics are really only problems at the 5 star level, which is arguably the smallest fraction of players. And even then problem is in quotes. Strats are simple. I'm sure others have thought up way better already. Mirror is easiest. If you can't, then use some 4 star team with a good stun, since their damage is too low to trigger cap. If you're feeling terribly imaginative, bust out 3 star deadpool, scarlet witch, the appropriate boosts and whom ever.

Daredevil217

Taganov said:

All of these characters with damage received mechanics are really only problems at the 5 star level, which is arguably the smallest fraction of players. And even then problem is in quotes. Strats are simple. I'm sure others have thought up way better already. Mirror is easiest. If you can't, then use some 4 star team with a good stun, since their damage is too low to trigger cap. If you're feeling terribly imaginative, bust out 3 star deadpool, scarlet witch, the appropriate boosts and whom ever.

How deep into 5* land are you?

Mirror works for Cap most of the time (unless you get an “unlucky” cascade). But, I maintain that Cap isn’t actually broken. Even with Hawk, they are a super easy team to take down.  

Mirror doesn’t really work for Bishop though. Even if you avoid high-damage matches, their Bishop will trigger your Bishop resulting in dueling overclocks and your team being stunlocked. I really have not found a way around him.

Busting out 3* teams doesn’t work because match damage alone will kill you.

And I shouldn’t have to bench all my 5* just to deal with one problematic 4*.  Point blank. 

tiomono

Daredevil217 said:

Taganov said:

All of these characters with damage received mechanics are really only problems at the 5 star level, which is arguably the smallest fraction of players. And even then problem is in quotes. Strats are simple. I'm sure others have thought up way better already. Mirror is easiest. If you can't, then use some 4 star team with a good stun, since their damage is too low to trigger cap. If you're feeling terribly imaginative, bust out 3 star deadpool, scarlet witch, the appropriate boosts and whom ever.

How deep into 5* land are you?

Mirror works for Cap most of the time (unless you get an “unlucky” cascade). But, I maintain that Cap isn’t actually broken. Even with Hawk, they are a super easy team to take down.  

Mirror doesn’t really work for Bishop though. Even if you avoid high-damage matches, their Bishop will trigger your Bishop resulting in dueling overclocks and your team being stunlocked. I really have not found a way around him.

Busting out 3* teams doesn’t work because match damage alone will kill you.

And I shouldn’t have to bench all my 5* just to deal with one problematic 4*.  Point blank. 

I gave you a like because of the last paragraph. 

I often use bishop and 4* gamora to beat bishop teams. In pick 2 your first match will not trigger their bishop. If the enemy bishop is paired with a 5* they will likely trigger yours which will trigger theirs which triggers yours again. Then you just keep them stun locked with gamora while filling the board with purple specials. In a pick 3 adding kitty to bishop gamora is deadly. Imo much better than gritty bishop.

ThaRoadWarrior

Okoye + Profe$$or X + 2TU can get bishop done pretty regularly if there is a match-N in the first turn or two. I have a harder time with WCap for some reason; I need to come up with a good counter for that still.

tiomono

ThaRoadWarrior said:

Okoye + Profe$$or X + 2TU can get bishop done pretty regularly if there is a match-N in the first turn or two. I have a harder time with WCap for some reason; I need to come up with a good counter for that still.

Bishop and gamora can beat this team too. Even unbuffed I can take those two vs a 5* and either bishop or worthy cap. If gamora or bishop are buffed it's even easier. 

I still want a better counter for the busted jump in front mechanic. Stun them fast and forever doesnt really counter it specifically so much as it's very effective vs any enemy team.

pheregas

Vins2 said:

fight4thedream said:

This actually touches on a question I have been mulling over: 

Should low level 450s champed 5* characters automatically be considered stronger than high level champed 4* characters?

I understand why most would assume the answer is yes considering that the 5* tier has a big jump in match damage and overall health but what this gap ended up causing is the obsolescence of the lower tiers for players who had entered in the 5* realm. However, this isn't the case with the other tiers.

The barrier for entry into covering a 450 5* should be reason enough to say yes.  It takes 6+ months of hoarding and you're still subject to RNG giving you the right distribution of colors on the right character.  

Just brings me back to the pre-5 archaic days when 5*s were introduced and we were told that a single cover of a 5* character would make them viable.  How the times have changed...

DAZ0273

pheregas said:

Vins2 said:

fight4thedream said:

This actually touches on a question I have been mulling over: 

Should low level 450s champed 5* characters automatically be considered stronger than high level champed 4* characters?

I understand why most would assume the answer is yes considering that the 5* tier has a big jump in match damage and overall health but what this gap ended up causing is the obsolescence of the lower tiers for players who had entered in the 5* realm. However, this isn't the case with the other tiers.

The barrier for entry into covering a 450 5* should be reason enough to say yes.  It takes 6+ months of hoarding and you're still subject to RNG giving you the right distribution of colors on the right character.  

Just brings me back to the pre-5 archaic days when 5*s were introduced and we were told that a single cover of a 5* character would make them viable.  How the times have changed...

Well it was true for OML so they took care of that with a lovely rebalance. I guess arguably it is still true for Kitty (although 2 yellow is better)...at least half the players in Shield Sim seem to think so every season judging by the fact they will team her with almost anything that moves regardless of whether they have better options.

Anybody else worth having as a 1 cover 5*? Cable's green hits quite hard and can double as an aoe - possibly quite nice to have as a 3* player.

bluewolf

My habit for the last couple seasons has been running Worthy, CM, and Rocket in Simulator for the first 1700 points or so.

It bombs more this season than some earlier ones - maybe I'm out a little early.  I need to wait for the poor saps without meta 5's to try to grab some wins.

But I managed to take out a team today with 2 champed 5's and one high level 5 on my second turn, thanks to some lucky cascades.  3 turns are not unusual for my win with this team vs all champed 5s.

Still seems broken to me.

------

While shards have changed some of the calculus around hoarding for a group of 5's, the fact is that a newer player has no rea way to build up high level champ 4's like vets did.  This means your only real way into 5 land is hoarding and skipping/being selective with pulls.

That amount of effort involved in getting 5's, to me, is a strong argument that there is a problem with having 4*s that counter your 5s when you simply match 3.

I also have yet to run into (many, anyway) 4* players who are running these annoying characters and beating my team.  The vast majority of people I see are other 5* players.  Maybe that's the intent but it's not like I'm being impacted by 4* players punching up with them.

Vhailorx

DAZ0273 said:

pheregas said:

Vins2 said:

fight4thedream said:

This actually touches on a question I have been mulling over: 

Should low level 450s champed 5* characters automatically be considered stronger than high level champed 4* characters?

I understand why most would assume the answer is yes considering that the 5* tier has a big jump in match damage and overall health but what this gap ended up causing is the obsolescence of the lower tiers for players who had entered in the 5* realm. However, this isn't the case with the other tiers.

The barrier for entry into covering a 450 5* should be reason enough to say yes.  It takes 6+ months of hoarding and you're still subject to RNG giving you the right distribution of colors on the right character.  

Just brings me back to the pre-5 archaic days when 5*s were introduced and we were told that a single cover of a 5* character would make them viable.  How the times have changed...

Well it was true for OML so they took care of that with a lovely rebalance. I guess arguably it is still true for Kitty (although 2 yellow is better)...at least half the players in Shield Sim seem to think so every season judging by the fact they will team her with almost anything that moves regardless of whether they have better options.

Anybody else worth having as a 1 cover 5*? Cable's green hits quite hard and can double as an aoe - possibly quite nice to have as a 3* player.

There are a small number of 5*s that can have value with just 1 or 3 of the right covers.  It's mostly true healers and ap/tile buffing shenanigans.

Daredevil: any number of yellow covers is great

Kitty: any number of yellow covers is useful.

OML: still useful with at least 1 yellow, but definitely underpowered now

Thor: any number of green covers can be a great battery.

Okoye: useful with at least 1 black cover.  Very useful with at least 1 black and 1 yellow cover.

SS: moderately useful with at least 1 blue cover.

GED: useful with any number of blue covers.

DAZ0273

I suppose Archangel's anti-airbourne counter might be useful specifically against Vulture just to bring him down.