HoundofShadow said: I think this can be summarised as 5* players can't steamroll 4* players or lower in PvPs anymore because Bishop is like a road spike that punctured the wheels of their 5* vehicles, which slow them down or even derail them. Therefore, Bishop should be nerfed in such a way that 5* players can continue to mow down lower * players smoothly and continuously.However, Bishop is like an armoured car, especially for 4* players and below, that protects them from many kinds of attacks. Can these two differences be resolved? Or must it be made into a rule that whenever the devs design a new 4* release, they must made sure that 5* players can continue to steamroll all 4* characters and below, no matter how good they are?
TranscendGod said:You asked how Kitty is OP. I can explain how she's OP at lower levels compared to other 5* characters with similar levels and coverage. A Kitty in the 300s has a passive that increases special tiles at an incredibly quick rate compared to any other character (often 200-300+ per turn for up to 5 tiles). This is enough to take down an unboosted full health 4* in a few turns without using a single ability.
Sm0keyJ0e said: TranscendGod said:You asked how Kitty is OP. I can explain how she's OP at lower levels compared to other 5* characters with similar levels and coverage. A Kitty in the 300s has a passive that increases special tiles at an incredibly quick rate compared to any other character (often 200-300+ per turn for up to 5 tiles). This is enough to take down an unboosted full health 4* in a few turns without using a single ability. Is this primarily due to her interaction with Rocket? Are there other Kitty/[toon] teams that are difficult to fight? It seems that Rocket's mechanic of throwing out 7 strikes to start the match is the issue as she begins to buff immediately before you even make your next move. I'm just trying to figure out if the problem is Kitty or Rocket. Would as many people be running low level Kitty's if they had to build up a few turns to actually get specials to start buffing.
DAZ0273 said: Sm0keyJ0e said: TranscendGod said:You asked how Kitty is OP. I can explain how she's OP at lower levels compared to other 5* characters with similar levels and coverage. A Kitty in the 300s has a passive that increases special tiles at an incredibly quick rate compared to any other character (often 200-300+ per turn for up to 5 tiles). This is enough to take down an unboosted full health 4* in a few turns without using a single ability. Is this primarily due to her interaction with Rocket? Are there other Kitty/[toon] teams that are difficult to fight? It seems that Rocket's mechanic of throwing out 7 strikes to start the match is the issue as she begins to buff immediately before you even make your next move. I'm just trying to figure out if the problem is Kitty or Rocket. Would as many people be running low level Kitty's if they had to build up a few turns to actually get specials to start buffing. Kitty is the problem, Rocket just takes it into the stratosphere.
tiomono said: DAZ0273 said: Sm0keyJ0e said: TranscendGod said:You asked how Kitty is OP. I can explain how she's OP at lower levels compared to other 5* characters with similar levels and coverage. A Kitty in the 300s has a passive that increases special tiles at an incredibly quick rate compared to any other character (often 200-300+ per turn for up to 5 tiles). This is enough to take down an unboosted full health 4* in a few turns without using a single ability. Is this primarily due to her interaction with Rocket? Are there other Kitty/[toon] teams that are difficult to fight? It seems that Rocket's mechanic of throwing out 7 strikes to start the match is the issue as she begins to buff immediately before you even make your next move. I'm just trying to figure out if the problem is Kitty or Rocket. Would as many people be running low level Kitty's if they had to build up a few turns to actually get specials to start buffing. Kitty is the problem, Rocket just takes it into the stratosphere. So would a character that counters kitty's buffs do the trick for you? Or a character that can manipulate the board enough to match away and or destroy buffed tiles? Or maybe a character that can steal them and turn kitty's strength against her? Or a character that just gets to remove specials because they exist? Or a character that takes less damage from matches?Or a character that slaps back with double force and generates ap for his own team?These are all things that exist in the game that help with kitty. What things exist to help with Bishop? I see threads complaining about kitty and people present options and strategies. A thread comes up about frustration with Bishop and people just turn it into a kitty is OP topic. I have seen 3 suggestions in this discussion on how to deal with bishop. Only one was a specific team and another was 10 iso. I just want options that address his strengths just like we have for kitty. Fair is fair right?
ThaRoadWarrior said: Characters with cheap stuns help with Bishop (5* Iceman's stun is wild, y'all wait a month or so before his nerf calls start showing up. G4mora's stun is also very cheap, but if Juggernaut is in play that may bite you real hard as he suddenly tanks everything)Does Lumbercap and Archangel's AP denial, originally intended to combat Gambit, prevent Bishop's AP gain? I know Rogue's green doesn't prevent passive or incidental gain via match-4 line clears, but I haven't tried either of those 5* options. Rogue can be quite effective against Bishop, since you can siphon a color for very cheap, work on banking ap until she nukes him.A lot of the problems I personally have with bishop teams are the way MMR decides I should get fed up to teams with 340+ level rocket/bishop teams with 460+ Kittys attached, even though I only have a pair of 5* champs. So while i do have decent options, i have 0 options with the kind of level parity you need for them to work.
sambrookjm said: DAZ0273 said: Sm0keyJ0e said: TranscendGod said:You asked how Kitty is OP. I can explain how she's OP at lower levels compared to other 5* characters with similar levels and coverage. A Kitty in the 300s has a passive that increases special tiles at an incredibly quick rate compared to any other character (often 200-300+ per turn for up to 5 tiles). This is enough to take down an unboosted full health 4* in a few turns without using a single ability. Is this primarily due to her interaction with Rocket? Are there other Kitty/[toon] teams that are difficult to fight? It seems that Rocket's mechanic of throwing out 7 strikes to start the match is the issue as she begins to buff immediately before you even make your next move. I'm just trying to figure out if the problem is Kitty or Rocket. Would as many people be running low level Kitty's if they had to build up a few turns to actually get specials to start buffing. Kitty is the problem, Rocket just takes it into the stratosphere. Respectfully disagree here; Generally speaking, Grocket is the problem, and Kitty just takes it into the stratosphere. More specifically, his yellow passive is the problem. Pre-Gritty, you had Grockamora with Medusa running rampant. My Grocket is LVL 299. With his yellow at 5 covers, I get 7*330 = 2310 points of strike tile damage on turn 1, and that's unboosted.I'd like to make his ability tied to a repeater that can put out strike tiles every X turns, where X depends on the abilities. Make it fortified at LVL 5, if you're so inclined. But just throwing those strikes out there at the start of the match is obscenely overpowered. Sabretooth's a good start at trying to fix that metagame. My latest entry in the "Best MPQ Moment" thread was taking out six of the seven strikes on my first turn with Sabretooth against a Gritty team. It's far more frequent that I can't match one, and the damage just starts ramping up so quickly that it's impossible to win.My biggest worry is when we start seeing Kitty/Grocket/Juggernaut teams. Every time Juggy makes a match, your team is going to take a bunch of AoE thanks to those strikes. Juggy's probably going to tank Green/Blue over Rocket, and maybe black as well. My Juggernaut is 2/2/2, and any match he makes normally does 83 extra damage to the enemy team. Now add in the 2310 points *per match*, and suddenly the game ends very quickly.
DAZ0273 said: sambrookjm said: DAZ0273 said: Sm0keyJ0e said: TranscendGod said:You asked how Kitty is OP. I can explain how she's OP at lower levels compared to other 5* characters with similar levels and coverage. A Kitty in the 300s has a passive that increases special tiles at an incredibly quick rate compared to any other character (often 200-300+ per turn for up to 5 tiles). This is enough to take down an unboosted full health 4* in a few turns without using a single ability. Is this primarily due to her interaction with Rocket? Are there other Kitty/[toon] teams that are difficult to fight? It seems that Rocket's mechanic of throwing out 7 strikes to start the match is the issue as she begins to buff immediately before you even make your next move. I'm just trying to figure out if the problem is Kitty or Rocket. Would as many people be running low level Kitty's if they had to build up a few turns to actually get specials to start buffing. Kitty is the problem, Rocket just takes it into the stratosphere. Respectfully disagree here; Generally speaking, Grocket is the problem, and Kitty just takes it into the stratosphere. More specifically, his yellow passive is the problem. Pre-Gritty, you had Grockamora with Medusa running rampant. My Grocket is LVL 299. With his yellow at 5 covers, I get 7*330 = 2310 points of strike tile damage on turn 1, and that's unboosted.I'd like to make his ability tied to a repeater that can put out strike tiles every X turns, where X depends on the abilities. Make it fortified at LVL 5, if you're so inclined. But just throwing those strikes out there at the start of the match is obscenely overpowered. Sabretooth's a good start at trying to fix that metagame. My latest entry in the "Best MPQ Moment" thread was taking out six of the seven strikes on my first turn with Sabretooth against a Gritty team. It's far more frequent that I can't match one, and the damage just starts ramping up so quickly that it's impossible to win.My biggest worry is when we start seeing Kitty/Grocket/Juggernaut teams. Every time Juggy makes a match, your team is going to take a bunch of AoE thanks to those strikes. Juggy's probably going to tank Green/Blue over Rocket, and maybe black as well. My Juggernaut is 2/2/2, and any match he makes normally does 83 extra damage to the enemy team. Now add in the 2310 points *per match*, and suddenly the game ends very quickly. Fair enough. The reason I see it the other way is this: Rockets power is normally a diminishing return in so much that it can be matched away and thereafter he is barely a mediocre 4* once that happens. Nobody goes after Rocket, they go after his strikes. Run Rocket at 1 cover in yellow and see how much trouble he causes.Kitty is different - you have to try and take her below the trigger level for her power on the first turn she can activate it to stop her boosting what is already on the board (be it Rocket or other) but even if you do that, you are not safe because she can still return to her runaway boosting tricks at any time that further specials become available. And of course she also has powers that are able to take her back up to Phase & Conquer time again by addition of specials to the board. Run Kitty at one cover in Yellow and away you go.I will not try and argue that Rocket isn't overpowered - he was described on these boards as the first 4.5* and it is true. It's just that he provides that initial boost for Kitty to go nuts on but she is still capable of going nuts without him and even if you do manage to shut Phase & Conquer down after a turn or two you can be in very sorry shape.Anyway, as stated my preferred solution is that nobody loses their toys to play with and the 5* guys get something to help against Bishop.
tiomono said: DAZ0273 said: sambrookjm said: DAZ0273 said: Sm0keyJ0e said: TranscendGod said:You asked how Kitty is OP. I can explain how she's OP at lower levels compared to other 5* characters with similar levels and coverage. A Kitty in the 300s has a passive that increases special tiles at an incredibly quick rate compared to any other character (often 200-300+ per turn for up to 5 tiles). This is enough to take down an unboosted full health 4* in a few turns without using a single ability. Is this primarily due to her interaction with Rocket? Are there other Kitty/[toon] teams that are difficult to fight? It seems that Rocket's mechanic of throwing out 7 strikes to start the match is the issue as she begins to buff immediately before you even make your next move. I'm just trying to figure out if the problem is Kitty or Rocket. Would as many people be running low level Kitty's if they had to build up a few turns to actually get specials to start buffing. Kitty is the problem, Rocket just takes it into the stratosphere. Respectfully disagree here; Generally speaking, Grocket is the problem, and Kitty just takes it into the stratosphere. More specifically, his yellow passive is the problem. Pre-Gritty, you had Grockamora with Medusa running rampant. My Grocket is LVL 299. With his yellow at 5 covers, I get 7*330 = 2310 points of strike tile damage on turn 1, and that's unboosted.I'd like to make his ability tied to a repeater that can put out strike tiles every X turns, where X depends on the abilities. Make it fortified at LVL 5, if you're so inclined. But just throwing those strikes out there at the start of the match is obscenely overpowered. Sabretooth's a good start at trying to fix that metagame. My latest entry in the "Best MPQ Moment" thread was taking out six of the seven strikes on my first turn with Sabretooth against a Gritty team. It's far more frequent that I can't match one, and the damage just starts ramping up so quickly that it's impossible to win.My biggest worry is when we start seeing Kitty/Grocket/Juggernaut teams. Every time Juggy makes a match, your team is going to take a bunch of AoE thanks to those strikes. Juggy's probably going to tank Green/Blue over Rocket, and maybe black as well. My Juggernaut is 2/2/2, and any match he makes normally does 83 extra damage to the enemy team. Now add in the 2310 points *per match*, and suddenly the game ends very quickly. Fair enough. The reason I see it the other way is this: Rockets power is normally a diminishing return in so much that it can be matched away and thereafter he is barely a mediocre 4* once that happens. Nobody goes after Rocket, they go after his strikes. Run Rocket at 1 cover in yellow and see how much trouble he causes.Kitty is different - you have to try and take her below the trigger level for her power on the first turn she can activate it to stop her boosting what is already on the board (be it Rocket or other) but even if you do that, you are not safe because she can still return to her runaway boosting tricks at any time that further specials become available. And of course she also has powers that are able to take her back up to Phase & Conquer time again by addition of specials to the board. Run Kitty at one cover in Yellow and away you go.I will not try and argue that Rocket isn't overpowered - he was described on these boards as the first 4.5* and it is true. It's just that he provides that initial boost for Kitty to go nuts on but she is still capable of going nuts without him and even if you do manage to shut Phase & Conquer down after a turn or two you can be in very sorry shape.Anyway, as stated my preferred solution is that nobody loses their toys to play with and the 5* guys get something to help against Bishop. Another point on kitty though. If you lose your buffed strikes it's a very slow and easily loseable match. By the time kitty gains enough ap to get specials back on the board the enemy has enough ap to hit her with something. Attacks or protects do not have the same impact as strikes. Kitty cannot make strikes on her own. Kitty only goes to the stratosphere with allys that make strikes. Nico can do the same but does not have the 5 tile buff restriction. She just needs to keep more specials of a kind on the board than the enemy to buff. Nobody complains about her at all. A 5 yellow kitty at 270 will boost up to 5 tiles by 164 every turn. Nico boosts all tiles by 72 at level 283. That difference in buff strength seems appropriate to me when jumping up a tier and limiting how many specials it can buff in one turn. It puts those "low level terror kittys" in a comparable place to a character that has the same mechanic in the tier below them. So maybe kitty is OP, but maybe Nico is horribly overlooked as very being very strong.