Nerf Bishop

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  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 9,683 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Why should 4* players have to give up their Gritty/5* defence without something in return?
  • BigSoftieFF
    BigSoftieFF Posts: 454 Mover and Shaker
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    DAZ0273 said:
    Why should 4* players have to give up their Gritty/5* defence without something in return?
    ?

    I have no issues with Gritty myself. I have no desire for them to lose that defense...I’ll hit it anyway.
  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 9,683 Chairperson of the Boards
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    BigSoftieFF said:
    DAZ0273 said:
    Why should 4* players have to give up their Gritty/5* defence without something in return?
    ?

    I have no issues with Gritty myself. I have no desire for them to lose that defense...I’ll hit it anyway.
    Bishop is the 4* defence.
  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 9,683 Chairperson of the Boards
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    But the rest of your post is informative and I agree that I don't need nerfs to characters who are no bother to me either which is why Bishop can stay as he is for all I care. 😉
  • peterdark
    peterdark Posts: 151 Tile Toppler
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    I love reading these nerf Bishop posts :)  

    Firstly, I'm not looking for an argument, just trying to put the view across from someone not at 5* level.

    I'm in 4* land so get my uses out of Bishop but I'm not totally against him being 'slightly' reworked, but let's face it, any rework will probably mean he gets hit with a nerf hammer. I'm also in the camp that if they do anything to Bishop then it would only be fair to do something to Kitty. 

    Yeah, you can argue that Kitty is conditional on other factors but when you're not facing gritty, you have kitty with 3* daken or blade. Then you have the whole host of 4*'s that create tiles straight from the off. Even at 1 cover kitty is able to to boost any special tile creators tiles to such a degree you should just avoid them.

    I have about 12 4* at max covers or champed, one of them being Bishop. I face teams with Kitty everytime I go to pvp, she may not be fully covered but she is in every other team when I'm at around 4-500. If I win a few more and get to around 550+ then she is on 80% of the teams I see, and this is never higher than 700pts. People have said about the other counters... yes they would be good but there's a big dilution problem where you can't get the covers quick enough. I was lucky that when he was released, Bishop covers were dropping everywhere.

    The only other counter I have to someone buffing special tiles is Prowler, in which case I will get one use out of him before I need to use a health pack or you can't match quick enough and kitty's repeater takes one of your team out. Everyone else requires AP which you can't get because chances are there's a special tile being buffed on the 2nd turn which will down at least 1 member of your team. 

    I'm not saying you can't win anything in pvp without Bishop, but when you have a shallow roster in 4* land and every other team has kitty on it helps. 
  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 9,683 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited August 2019
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    tiomono said:
    DAZ0273 said:
    Why should 4* players have to give up their Gritty/5* defence without something in return?
    I'm not sure what this post means.

    Imagine if they released a new 3* character that regardless of what 4* team you ran, he was going to out damage and out ap gain you until he was dead. And was going to stun your whole team while he did it. You worked hard to reach the 4* tier and now it feels like that progress to a stronger tier was for nothing. Because someone in the tier below you literally counters every 4* character in the game all on his own.

    Would that seem balanced?

    Would you want a character in your tier of play designed to counter him?

    Would you just be happy that your best solution is to skip?

    I have not said nerf bishop. I have said bishop is a problem for the whole 5* tier. I believe he needs a character designed to shut him down.

    I'm also trying to not be argumentative, but just express my viewpoint on bishop and how he affects the entire tier above him.
    This thread is called "Nerf Bishop". So please forgive me if the OP was being more ambiguous than that.


    How you feel about Bishop is how I feel about Kitty, Kitty that can be used with 1 yellow cover - I was attacked by 3 Kitty teams today which had the following Kitty builds - 2/0/0, 1/2/0, 1/2/1. These were not players on my level but could still beat my teams thanks to a low cover 5* interfering with normal play and throwing out the norm at my level of play. I looked at their rosters - they had a level 375 Thanos, a very well covered/levelled Strange and another had high level OML and a Phoenix, all 375+. Why are they using such poorly covered Kitty's? Presumably because even at that level she is the better option! I'm a deep 4* player with nigh on 4 years of experience in this game and players are attacking me with 2/0/0 Kitty teams, winning and that isn't broken?!?!?

    My solution is don't nerf anybody or nerf Bishop but also nerf Kitty who is a major problem at my level of play, especially in Shield Sim and increasingly everywhere. Bishop ruins your play experience but Kitty ruins mine so let's be fair about it, both have to go or neither do. Fair is fair, no?

    So far all I have been told is no, just nerf Bishop because Kitty doesn't bother 5* players. Well Bishop doesn't bother 4* players. Just as a 4* Bishop (who by the way is nowhere near an issue unless champed) shouldn't affect 5* play neither should a 1 to 3 cover 5* be able to be used with such devastating effect in 4* play and below.

    I'm just asking for equal treatment/fairness across the board. Is that not reasonable?




  • jp1
    jp1 Posts: 1,073 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Sign me up for the “No nerf” level of VIP please.
  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 9,683 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Sm0keyJ0e said:
    DAZ0273 said:

    <snip> I was attacked by 3 Kitty teams today which had the following Kitty builds - 2/0/0, 1/2/0, 1/2/1. These were not players on my level but could still beat my teams thanks to a low cover 5* interfering with normal play and throwing out the norm at my level of play. I looked at their rosters - they had a level 375 Thanos, a very well covered/levelled Strange and another had high level OML and a Phoenix, all 375+. I'm a deep 4* player with nigh on 4 years of experience in this game and players are attacking me with 2/0/0 Kitty teams, winning and that isn't broken?!?!? <snip>


    Can't speak for everyone, but my issues with Bishop have little to do with teams beating me with him. I have a well-developed 5* roster and I get hit by baby Thor/Okoye teams all the time. Big whoop. That's the name of the game--player vs. player.

    My issue with Bishop is game play mechanics, the high odds things will go poorly, and the simple un-fun feeling of having your whole team stunned with little to no strategy involved in the enemy doing so. There is no counter to Bishop.

    There are a million counters to various Kitty/Rocket teams in both the 4* and 5* tier.
    And my issue with Gritty is that unless you are fortunate with board placement, Gritty/Kitty teams kill you in next to no time, even if you have brought along the likes of  Sabretooth (who by the way needs Okoye to be effective, another 5*). And Kitty is EVERYWHERE! Bishop at least fights back no matter what. So you wanna take away my trusty counter measure and leaving me with my problem instead of us both getting rid of our respective problems together?

    Also - in the 5* tier there are 2 characters who are unstunnable, so that simply isn't true that no counter to Bishop exists that 5* players have no access to. Just because you don't wanna use them doesn't mean they aren't there.

    Don't get me wrong, I can sympathise with the 5* players issue with Bishop, seems however that this a one way street with Kitty in return. Why is that?
  • Sm0keyJ0e
    Sm0keyJ0e Posts: 730 Critical Contributor
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    jp1 said:
    Sign me up for the “No nerf” level of VIP please.
    I never understand this line of thinking. When is a toon so broken on release that it has to be re-balanced? If Bishop gained 10 blue ap instead of 5, would that be a problem? What about 20? What if he was released and only gained 3 blue ap? Would he have still felt viable?

    I'll reiterate, I'm generally against re-balances in MPQ because they don't know how to do them. But every other mobile RPG game in this vein does rebalances. EVERY ONE OF THEM. And there's a reason--once you have a wide breadth of cards/toons/characters/whatever, it's hard to predict the interactions with each other. The player base generally finds them and exploits them. And that's what's happening here.
  • tiomono
    tiomono Posts: 1,654 Chairperson of the Boards
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    DAZ0273 said:
    tiomono said:
    DAZ0273 said:
    Why should 4* players have to give up their Gritty/5* defence without something in return?
    I'm not sure what this post means.

    Imagine if they released a new 3* character that regardless of what 4* team you ran, he was going to out damage and out ap gain you until he was dead. And was going to stun your whole team while he did it. You worked hard to reach the 4* tier and now it feels like that progress to a stronger tier was for nothing. Because someone in the tier below you literally counters every 4* character in the game all on his own.

    Would that seem balanced?

    Would you want a character in your tier of play designed to counter him?

    Would you just be happy that your best solution is to skip?

    I have not said nerf bishop. I have said bishop is a problem for the whole 5* tier. I believe he needs a character designed to shut him down.

    I'm also trying to not be argumentative, but just express my viewpoint on bishop and how he affects the entire tier above him.
    This thread is called "Nerf Bishop". So please forgive me if the OP was being more ambiguous than that.


    How you feel about Bishop is how I feel about Kitty, Kitty that can be used with 1 yellow cover - I was attacked by 3 Kitty teams today which had the following Kitty builds - 2/0/0, 1/2/0, 1/2/1. These were not players on my level but could still beat my teams thanks to a low cover 5* interfering with normal play and throwing out the norm at my level of play. I looked at their rosters - they had a level 375 Thanos, a very well covered/levelled Strange and another had high level OML and a Phoenix, all 375+. Why are they using such poorly covered Kitty's? Presumably because even at that level she is the better option! I'm a deep 4* player with nigh on 4 years of experience in this game and players are attacking me with 2/0/0 Kitty teams, winning and that isn't broken?!?!?

    My solution is don't nerf anybody or nerf Bishop but also nerf Kitty who is a major problem at my level of play, especially in Shield Sim and increasingly everywhere. Bishop ruins your play experience but Kitty ruins mine so let's be fair about it, both have to go or neither do. Fair is fair, no?

    So far all I have been told is no, just nerf Bishop because Kitty doesn't bother 5* players. Well Bishop doesn't bother 4* players. Just as a 4* Bishop (who by the way is nowhere near an issue unless champed) shouldn't affect 5* play neither should a 1 to 3 cover 5* be able to be used with such devastating effect in 4* play and below.

    I'm just asking for equal treatment/fairness across the board. Is that not reasonable?




    So again if a 3* character came out that got to damage your 4* team for equal damage that you gave to him every turn passively during your turn, and gain more than double the ap that you do every turn, would you want something done about it?

    I have not said "no just nerf bishop". I am saying and will continue to say that the 5* tier needs a character made to shut down the absurdity that is bishop.

    I happen to also feel that the characters at the higher tiers of the game should be progressively better. Not to be struggling to defeat the tier below them.

    The whole model of the game pushes you to progress your roster to higher tiers. But why progress up a tier when the one you are in has a character that counters the tier above them?
  • ZootSax
    ZootSax Posts: 1,819 Chairperson of the Boards
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    DAZ0273 said:


    You say that yet I see her on many, many, many, many teams that are clearly "not good" whether they are poor Gritty's or other varieties and yet are apparently doing OK for that player as they are running that Kitty cover over other options they have in their roster who are levelled higher. Kitty + Daken? Check. Kitty + low cover OML? Check. Kitty + Carnage? Check. Kitty + Gamora w/out Rocket? Check. Goes on and on. So much Kitty, everywhere.

    Her yellow starts it's work as soon as there are enough specials with ANY applicable partner, I see it as an exact correlation with OML (and he should not have been Nerfed either). Unless you can do something about her straight away or just overpower her then she shuts down the 4* tier and below in the same way that Bishop shuts down the 5* tier as being nothing more than an iso skip because she rampsup from nothing to you are all dead in very little time. Just based on her Yellow passive.
    Your examples are still teams which deliberately play to Kitty's strengths by creating special tiles.  @tiomono 's point was that pre-nerf OML with a yellow cover was used at all tiers regardless of who he was paired with.   I was a 2-3* transitioner who had never pulled a 5* cover for much of the time prior to OML's nerf and EVERY player I found in my MMR who had one ran a 255-285 OML if they had a yellow cover, regardless of the weekly boost list or other comparable 5* options on their roster (with the sole exception being Patch's PVP, for obvious reasons).  If you're a 2* or 3* player today and you had a variety of minimally-covered 5*'s, you'd rarely be ahead running Kitty with fairly common teams like IM40/Strange, Stormnedo and the like which don't rely on special tile creation.  Pre-nerf OML was basically the default option for those same types of players, albeit at a different time in the game when there were a fraction of the current 5* options.

    All that said, your points on the nerf issue are fair ones.  Personally, I'd like to see Bishop's damage threshold brought more in line with similar abilities (4* Deadpool, 3* Hulk, 3* Carol, etc), but with the game's history of rebalancing I expect any change to utterly destroy the character.
  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 9,683 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited August 2019
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    tiomono said:
    DAZ0273 said:
    tiomono said:
    DAZ0273 said:
    Why should 4* players have to give up their Gritty/5* defence without something in return?
    I'm not sure what this post means.

    Imagine if they released a new 3* character that regardless of what 4* team you ran, he was going to out damage and out ap gain you until he was dead. And was going to stun your whole team while he did it. You worked hard to reach the 4* tier and now it feels like that progress to a stronger tier was for nothing. Because someone in the tier below you literally counters every 4* character in the game all on his own.

    Would that seem balanced?

    Would you want a character in your tier of play designed to counter him?

    Would you just be happy that your best solution is to skip?

    I have not said nerf bishop. I have said bishop is a problem for the whole 5* tier. I believe he needs a character designed to shut him down.

    I'm also trying to not be argumentative, but just express my viewpoint on bishop and how he affects the entire tier above him.
    This thread is called "Nerf Bishop". So please forgive me if the OP was being more ambiguous than that.


    How you feel about Bishop is how I feel about Kitty, Kitty that can be used with 1 yellow cover - I was attacked by 3 Kitty teams today which had the following Kitty builds - 2/0/0, 1/2/0, 1/2/1. These were not players on my level but could still beat my teams thanks to a low cover 5* interfering with normal play and throwing out the norm at my level of play. I looked at their rosters - they had a level 375 Thanos, a very well covered/levelled Strange and another had high level OML and a Phoenix, all 375+. Why are they using such poorly covered Kitty's? Presumably because even at that level she is the better option! I'm a deep 4* player with nigh on 4 years of experience in this game and players are attacking me with 2/0/0 Kitty teams, winning and that isn't broken?!?!?

    My solution is don't nerf anybody or nerf Bishop but also nerf Kitty who is a major problem at my level of play, especially in Shield Sim and increasingly everywhere. Bishop ruins your play experience but Kitty ruins mine so let's be fair about it, both have to go or neither do. Fair is fair, no?

    So far all I have been told is no, just nerf Bishop because Kitty doesn't bother 5* players. Well Bishop doesn't bother 4* players. Just as a 4* Bishop (who by the way is nowhere near an issue unless champed) shouldn't affect 5* play neither should a 1 to 3 cover 5* be able to be used with such devastating effect in 4* play and below.

    I'm just asking for equal treatment/fairness across the board. Is that not reasonable?




    So again if a 3* character came out that got to damage your 4* team for equal damage that you gave to him every turn passively during your turn, and gain more than double the ap that you do every turn, would you want something done about it?

    I have not said "no just nerf bishop". I am saying and will continue to say that the 5* tier needs a character made to shut down the absurdity that is bishop.

    I happen to also feel that the characters at the higher tiers of the game should be progressively better. Not to be struggling to defeat the tier below them.

    The whole model of the game pushes you to progress your roster to higher tiers. But why progress up a tier when the one you are in has a character that counters the tier above them?
    But I haven't said not to do anything about it!

    And I agree with you about higher tiers generally except to the point where ONE single cover on a 5* can interfere with all tiers below play! That is broken, just like our Overclocked friend! A 5* that can be a block to play when teamed with 4 & 3 star teams! Sm0key was complaining above without irony I think about "baby" Thorkoye teams... well, isn't that a 5* team? So wouldn't you expect to have 5* teams in 5*  MMR? I dunno. Kitty, Not broken at all for being able to use 3* to influence champed 4* MMR ...but I digress.

    So let's deal with Bishop, I have your back, he is a problem for you, let's make your game experience better FOR YOU. But hey, would you support me in doing something about the character who is seriously bothering my enjoyment of the game, blocking off progress beyond certain score points (we all wanna progress, right?) and generally making the game a bit of a misery? Oh what's that? Kitty is not a problem, there are plenty of counters to her, she doesn't bother 5* play, etc?

    Right. Fine. 

    So, back to your wall of Kitty yellow fueled "fun", 4* player and "try" to understand what it is like for a 5* player, won't you?

    Or...we could try and have both fixed (I.e -ruined by the Dev's as they can't balance for tiny Kitty but I digress). Or hope the game gives us something where I don't "need" Bishop and you don't need to worry about him.

    Until then, only you can tell me why it is somehow unreasonable to want a solution to Kitty if you get a solution to Bishop.

    Any way, I have spent was away more time on this than ever intended, I do truly hope you guys get some sort of fix for Bishop, just disappointing not a one of you have supported a fix for Kitty. *shrugs*
  • Sm0keyJ0e
    Sm0keyJ0e Posts: 730 Critical Contributor
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    I don't support a fix for Kitty because she isn't broken. I'm sorry, just being totally honest. She helps people punch above their weight, and that's great. She's useful for PVE. She's a very good 5*.

    Bishop is broken.
  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 9,683 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Sm0keyJ0e said:
    I don't support a fix for Kitty because she isn't broken. I'm sorry, just being totally honest. She helps people punch above their weight, and that's great. She's useful for PVE. She's a very good 5*.

    Bishop is broken.
    Fair enough.

    Kitty is broken for me.

    Bishop is broken for you.

    Bishop is useful for PVP,  he helps people punch above their weight and that is great. He is a very good 4*.
  • Sm0keyJ0e
    Sm0keyJ0e Posts: 730 Critical Contributor
    edited August 2019
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    You haven't described how Kitty is broken. It sounds like you just don't like to get hit in PVP? I mean you are welcome to start a "Nerf Kitty" thread and see what kind of traction/support that gets.

    We are well off topic now; let's get back to discussing how broken Bishop is. Bishop doesn't help people punch above their weight. He is used to float so people don't get hit because no one wants to fight a broken toon. I have seen it mentioned a million times, even in this thread--people throw him out on defense so they don't lose all their points. 
  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 9,683 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited August 2019
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    I have if you read my posts I described how I feel Kitty is broken from the single fact that a single yellow cover is all that is needed to start the buff train and she interferes with play at a few cover threshold. I would compare her to 3* Gambit 0/0/5 build before he got clattered. Ridiculously fast elevation to chaos based upon no need to have champed or even mildly well covered. And of course higher level Kitty's are deservedly 5* level but single cover ones are way too overpowered.

    And I don't want to nerf anyone, again a fact that is in plenty of my posts. Fully understand if you have just skimmed this thread, maybe you have just honed in on the Kitty element. If you care to read back and you might understand that this is not at all a "please please please nerf Kitty, OMG, nerf her!!!" thing at all.

    All I said is if Bishop gets nerfed, Kitty should be nerfed. It solves a problem for two sets of different players and seems fair to me. Seems like my logic doesn't line up with others. That's, OK.

    Obviously, YMMV.
  • AlexR
    AlexR Posts: 427 Mover and Shaker
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    Sm0keyJ0e said:

    Don't get me wrong, I can sympathise with the 5* players issue with Bishop, seems however that this a one way street with Kitty in return. Why is that?

    I guess my argument is you should have a problem with characters from a tier higher than your own.
    That's a reasonable argument if we're talking about a 4* player using 4* characters trying to compete against 5* players using 5* characters.
    It's a terrible argument when we're talking about a 5* character that has fully entered and utterly dominates the 4* meta. She's everywhere in 4* land.
    If that higher tier character is everywhere in the lower tier pvp meta, then you need some way to deal with it to compete in your own tier. Not to mention, you simply cannot reach 2k points in Sim as a 4* player against other 4* players, unless you can beat Kitty teams. Trying to fight Kitty teams as a 4* player is often a huuuge gamble, unless you run Bishop/Deadpool. Even teams that can deal with Kitty most of the time are still kinda board-luck dependent to win, and only ever one bad cascade away from a loss... except Bishop/Deadpool.

    So, "you should have problems" is pretty weak, because we're literally talking about 4* players not being able to properly compete in their own tier unless they have a way to deal with Kitty. One of the best ways currently is Bishop. This is counterplay at work. So yes, if you nerfed Bishop to oblivion, that would very much affect 4* land and to dismiss this with "well, you should have problems" does not cut it.

    I'm not saying that Bishop's interaction with 5* characters shouldn't be looked at -- a Bishop counter is certainly fair and maybe we could find a way to adjust Bishop in a way that removes his unintended interaction with 5* match damage, as Rod5 suggested. (Although we all know how likely the chance of "small adjustments" are...) But seriously, in 4* land Bishop is working as intended and is a needed counter against a 5* character that extremely dominating a lower tier and that is a valid concern for 4* players.

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