Nerf Bishop

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  • Zeofar
    Zeofar Posts: 45 Just Dropped In
    Sm0keyJ0e said:
    Zeofar said:
    So, people keep brainstorming targeted designs for Bishop counters but seem to be ignoring the fact that the literal latest 5 star character has the fastest stun in the game. Getting hit by an early stun is a pretty effective counter for a character whose entire shtick is generating value every turn.

    It takes a very specific board for this to work. One, you have to match blue straightaway with no cascades (enemy has gained 5 blue). Next turn, you have to hope there is a blue match with Bobby's CD's on them. If that works, great you may have stunned him for a turn or two. If not, enemy now has 10 blue.

    Edit: and it's not the fastest stun in the game, that title goes to enemy Bishop. Literally 0 moves to start a stun train.
    If the design you're looking for means that Bishop is guaranteed to do fully nothing in the match based on character selection, then I think you're bound for disappointment when it comes to counters. Bishop getting one use of a power sometimes isn't the end of the world. And, sure, enemy Bishop can be faster but that isn't a particularly useful quality for team building as you cannot include enemy Bishop on your own team.
  • jp1
    jp1 Posts: 1,081 Chairperson of the Boards
    So if SS jumped to the front whenever a stun is fired, would that be an acceptable counter to those who think Bishop is needing a nerf? 
  • Sm0keyJ0e
    Sm0keyJ0e Posts: 730 Critical Contributor
    jp1 said:
    So if SS jumped to the front whenever a stun is fired, would that be an acceptable counter to those who think Bishop is needing a nerf? 
    No. As someone pointed out, Bishop is a 4*, is frequently in rewards and is easily achieved via bonus heroes. He's everywhere and it's only going to get worse.

    Silver Surfer is a 4-year-old toon relegated to classics with an abysmal chance for anyone in the last few years to ever have champed or even reasonably covered. If he was as easily obtainable as Bishop is then sure, I like your idea. Jumps to the front, enemy Bishop wastes 10 blue, and no one is stunned. Love it.
  • tiomono
    tiomono Posts: 1,654 Chairperson of the Boards
    Zeofar said:
    Sm0keyJ0e said:
    Zeofar said:
    So, people keep brainstorming targeted designs for Bishop counters but seem to be ignoring the fact that the literal latest 5 star character has the fastest stun in the game. Getting hit by an early stun is a pretty effective counter for a character whose entire shtick is generating value every turn.

    It takes a very specific board for this to work. One, you have to match blue straightaway with no cascades (enemy has gained 5 blue). Next turn, you have to hope there is a blue match with Bobby's CD's on them. If that works, great you may have stunned him for a turn or two. If not, enemy now has 10 blue.

    Edit: and it's not the fastest stun in the game, that title goes to enemy Bishop. Literally 0 moves to start a stun train.
    If the design you're looking for means that Bishop is guaranteed to do fully nothing in the match based on character selection, then I think you're bound for disappointment when it comes to counters. Bishop getting one use of a power sometimes isn't the end of the world. And, sure, enemy Bishop can be faster but that isn't a particularly useful quality for team building as you cannot include enemy Bishop on your own team.
    If an opponent gains 4 or more ap during your turn stun them or send them airborne. Let him do his damage and gain his 5 blue. But he gets either stunned or sent airborne for it. He stays the same but gets punished somehow for doing what he does.

    This would also affect medusa if you happen to match away 2 of your own specials during your own turn. I cannot think of any other characters that can easily gain 4 or more ap during the opponents turn.
  • ZootSax
    ZootSax Posts: 1,819 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited August 2019
    tiomono said:

    This would also affect medusa if you happen to match away 2 of your own specials during your own turn. I cannot think of any other characters that can easily gain 4 or more ap during the opponents turn.
    2* Ares can do it, too, if he's on your team.  ...which would make for an interesting alternate stun/airborne in your scenario, as I believe Ares' Green can be a team-up.  Hardly game-breaking, though (except, possibly in the Colossus Black sort of way).
  • sambrookjm
    sambrookjm Posts: 2,163 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited August 2019
    tiomono said:

    This would also affect medusa if you happen to match away 2 of your own specials during your own turn. I cannot think of any other characters that can easily gain 4 or more ap during the opponents turn.
    4-star Carol's passive with 5 covers can also do the trick.
    3-star Black Panther's Rage of the Panther gives the enemy team 5 AP.

    I think there's another ability that gives the enemy team 1 black AP? - Edit.  Yes, Namor's Mercy, but it costs 11, so you'd need some pretty weird events to occur to fire that off four times in a turn.
  • tiomono
    tiomono Posts: 1,654 Chairperson of the Boards
    sambrookjm said:
    tiomono said:

    This would also affect medusa if you happen to match away 2 of your own specials during your own turn. I cannot think of any other characters that can easily gain 4 or more ap during the opponents turn.
    4-star Carol's passive with 5 covers can also do the trick.
    3-star Black Panther's Rage of the Panther gives the enemy team 5 AP.

    I think there's another ability that gives the enemy team 1 black AP? - Edit.  Yes, Namor's Mercy, but it costs 11, so you'd need some pretty weird events to occur to fire that off four times in a turn.
    I guess I forgot Carol gives 4 at 5 covers. I always ran Carol, wasp so I had her green at 3 covers. I was capitalizing on wasps 1 turn countdown to buff stuff.

    I still think targeting enemy ap gain on your own turn could be an interesting way to deal with bishop without affecting a huge amount of characters. Like the 36 that bishop punishes just for making match 3's.
  • justsing
    justsing Posts: 510 Critical Contributor
    BigSoftieFF said:
    Honest question. Is an undercovered and underleveled Kitty that much different than Guardians in 4* tier? I only ask cause I remember when I could finally counter them and am curious on if the same counters work.
    You don’t need Bishop to beat unchamped Kitty teams in 4* land, especially the non-Gritty Kitty teams. I would know. I stayed in 4* land for months before champing my 5*s. Defensive and board shake characters like MEH, Rogue, and Dazzler all worked great. They just weren’t scary on defense, so you couldn’t float at high points (oh no lol)
  • Zeofar
    Zeofar Posts: 45 Just Dropped In
    tiomono said:
    Zeofar said:
    If the design you're looking for means that Bishop is guaranteed to do fully nothing in the match based on character selection, then I think you're bound for disappointment when it comes to counters. Bishop getting one use of a power sometimes isn't the end of the world. And, sure, enemy Bishop can be faster but that isn't a particularly useful quality for team building as you cannot include enemy Bishop on your own team.
    If an opponent gains 4 or more ap during your turn stun them or send them airborne. Let him do his damage and gain his 5 blue. But he gets either stunned or sent airborne for it. He stays the same but gets punished somehow for doing what he does.

    This would also affect medusa if you happen to match away 2 of your own specials during your own turn. I cannot think of any other characters that can easily gain 4 or more ap during the opponents turn.
    I don't think it's impossible (or even remotely difficult) to design an ability that affects Bishop and only Bishop, but an ability that specific is inherently questionable and only pushes the game further into boring rock-paper-scissors designs.
  • tiomono
    tiomono Posts: 1,654 Chairperson of the Boards
    Zeofar said:
    tiomono said:
    Zeofar said:
    If the design you're looking for means that Bishop is guaranteed to do fully nothing in the match based on character selection, then I think you're bound for disappointment when it comes to counters. Bishop getting one use of a power sometimes isn't the end of the world. And, sure, enemy Bishop can be faster but that isn't a particularly useful quality for team building as you cannot include enemy Bishop on your own team.
    If an opponent gains 4 or more ap during your turn stun them or send them airborne. Let him do his damage and gain his 5 blue. But he gets either stunned or sent airborne for it. He stays the same but gets punished somehow for doing what he does.

    This would also affect medusa if you happen to match away 2 of your own specials during your own turn. I cannot think of any other characters that can easily gain 4 or more ap during the opponents turn.
    I don't think it's impossible (or even remotely difficult) to design an ability that affects Bishop and only Bishop, but an ability that specific is inherently questionable and only pushes the game further into boring rock-paper-scissors designs.
    Could you break down and explain "inherently questionable" for me. I'm not trying to make a point with this question. I just dont understand it clearly.

    If a game does not employ rock-paper-scissors approaches to balance and design how else do you make new and interesting characters when you are over 100 characters deep in a game?

    If one character is a problem for 36 other characters, how do you deal with that beyond bringing in something specific to deal with it without also having it be a bigger problem?
  • TranscendGod
    TranscendGod Posts: 53 Match Maker
    BigSoftieFF said:
    Honest question. Is an undercovered and underleveled Kitty that much different than Guardians in 4* tier? I only ask cause I remember when I could finally counter them and am curious on if the same counters work.
    Yes. Kitties that are in the 300-400 range with a decent number of yellow covers are a huge problem for many players in the 3* and 4* tier (smaller Kitties are problematic for 3* players when combined with Daken). Kitty + R&G or Carnage is far more powerful than R&G + a GotG character or medusa. A mid level (300-400) Kitty is incredibly powerful compared to any other 5* in that range (on defense). And it's much worse in events that lack boosts (like simulator) or when only weaker 4s are boosted.

    Most of the anti-R&G / GotG / Medusa teams are far less effective against a good Kitty team.

    You can keep champion 450+ Kitty as is, just reduce her power at lower levels.
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,455 Chairperson of the Boards
    You need a huge Nico to even come close to the gains you get off of a 4 cover Kitty. I have a 2/2/0 kitty at 315, and a Nico at 296, and that Kitty is adding nearly double the tile bonus (138 vs 80). She is a huge force multiplier.
  • TranscendGod
    TranscendGod Posts: 53 Match Maker
    Sm0keyJ0e said:

    Don't get me wrong, I can sympathise with the 5* players issue with Bishop, seems however that this a one way street with Kitty in return. Why is that?

    I guess my argument is you should have a problem with characters from a tier higher than your own.
    I agree that you should have a problem with completed characters from a higher tier (I.E. champion 450+ Kitty). The problem is that lower level Kitties are extremely powerful compared to any other 5* at a similar level.

    I also agree that Bishop is far too strong against high level 5s, and ideally he'd be fixed so that he is only effective in the 4* meta (such as making his passives only activate against characters below level 450). However, lower level Kitties have been an enormous problem in the 3* and 4* meta since shortly after her release. Bishop helps, but she is still ridiculous at these lower levels. Other 4* counters are much less effective and consistent against her.

    You asked how Kitty is OP. I can explain how she's OP at lower levels compared to other 5* characters with similar levels and coverage. A Kitty in the 300s has a passive that increases special tiles at an incredibly quick rate compared to any other character (often 200-300+ per turn for up to 5 tiles). This is enough to take down an unboosted full health 4* in a few turns without using a single ability. No other 5* at that level can do anything remotely like that (even with perfect coverage) without a crazy cascade and lucky crit tiles. Some of the most effective 4* counters to high match damage teams are countered by her other passive (Carol + R&G + Rulk/Hulk or Dazzler + R&G). That purple passive also counters several other strong 4* abilities. An unboosted Sabretooth is inconsistent and dies quickly. A dazzler team can remove most of the initial tiles (after taking a large amount of damage) but then has great difficulty after that (mostly thanks to Kitty's other passive). Even Bishop requires health packs and can die to a decent cascade before generating blue.
  • jtsings
    jtsings Posts: 278 Mover and Shaker
    edited August 2019
      First of all I would have to say from my single champed 5* perspective he is more than troublesome but mostly, for me, in shield simulator.  He does have one really effective counter in, for me, which is Iceman, however, it's completely dependent upon the board; if there are not two blue matches, then you might as well retreat because you'll probably lose.  And when you are up against Gritty, your "gift" for stunning Bishop for 5 turns is 10k damage to one of your characters.  It's very similar to using Dazzler against Rocket you had to pray that there was a black match available or your main reason for bringing her in the fight was all for naught.

      My way to easily fix him: come on game team prove to us that you can apply just a simple fix rather than completely change a character.  We already have many board dependent characters in the game; so why can't he gain blue based on the presence of specials on the board.  Keep everything the same for him if  there are more than four enemy special tiles on the board.  If there are no special tiles on the board maybe he only gains two or three AP.  He's still effective against Gritty teams but at least he isn't able to stun 5* teams by turn 2.

      I will have to disagree, though, with other postings about making a 5* solution to Bishop.  Both Sabretooth and Thanos are two very good 4* counters against 4* Grocket so I think it's only fitting to have a 4* made to counter Bishop.  One suggestion might be having a 4* character that has a passive to place a repeater tile on the board so as to whenever it's on the board the whole team is immune to stun.  Or in fitting irony a 4* that jumps in front when someone is to be stunned, this character takes the stun themselves but also reduces it up to 3 turns.  I would definitely prefer, overall, a 4* counter to him rather than a complete nerf for him; except if it were just a minor change to his passive such as listed above.
  • TranscendGod
    TranscendGod Posts: 53 Match Maker
    justsing said:
    BigSoftieFF said:
    Honest question. Is an undercovered and underleveled Kitty that much different than Guardians in 4* tier? I only ask cause I remember when I could finally counter them and am curious on if the same counters work.
    You don’t need Bishop to beat unchamped Kitty teams in 4* land, especially the non-Gritty Kitty teams. I would know. I stayed in 4* land for months before champing my 5*s. Defensive and board shake characters like MEH, Rogue, and Dazzler all worked great. They just weren’t scary on defense, so you couldn’t float at high points (oh no lol)
    It is technically true that you can beat unchamped Kitty teams without Bishop, but you are much more likely to take massive amounts of damage compared to other teams with similar levels.

    One problem about MEH, Rogue, Dazzler is that they are fairly weak and slow when not boosted. If you try to use them in a typical PvP that has a featured character (often a 3* that isn't particularly useful) against gritty:

    With MEH you need to be pretty lucky with the initial cascade or you are in serious trouble.

    Dazzler will often require another unboosted 4* (like R&G or Carnage) so you can activate her passive before Kitty strikes become insane. That means you're using a weak team for your MMR (even at low points). But also, she doesn't work as well as most people think. Assuming you're able to make a match with Dazzler on your first turn so that she tanks (not always easy if the featured character uses her colors), she's still going to take a massive amount of damage on the second turn. But hey, you remove their strike tiles and stun Kitty for 4 turns. Sounds good. Problem is that unboosted Dazzler and R&G are fairly slow. Kitty becomes unstunned, and her purple starts to remove your strike tiles making you slower and slower. Eventually it hits you really hard (unless you can keep generating special tiles). And if you lose your heavily damaged Dazzler, you're in trouble if Kitty uses yellow or red. Also her purple is a hilarious counter to R&G's green and blue. In practice, it just doesn't work well (especially compared to bishop).

    Unboosted rogue is rapidly out-scaled by a mid level Kitty.
  • Spudgutter
    Spudgutter Posts: 743 Critical Contributor
    AlexR said:

    Sm0keyJ0e said:

    Don't get me wrong, I can sympathise with the 5* players issue with Bishop, seems however that this a one way street with Kitty in return. Why is that?

    I guess my argument is you should have a problem with characters from a tier higher than your own.
    That's a reasonable argument if we're talking about a 4* player using 4* characters trying to compete against 5* players using 5* characters.
    It's a terrible argument when we're talking about a 5* character that has fully entered and utterly dominates the 4* meta. She's everywhere in 4* land.
    If that higher tier character is everywhere in the lower tier pvp meta, then you need some way to deal with it to compete in your own tier. Not to mention, you simply cannot reach 2k points in Sim as a 4* player against other 4* players, unless you can beat Kitty teams. Trying to fight Kitty teams as a 4* player is often a huuuge gamble, unless you run Bishop/Deadpool. Even teams that can deal with Kitty most of the time are still kinda board-luck dependent to win, and only ever one bad cascade away from a loss... except Bishop/Deadpool.

    So, "you should have problems" is pretty weak, because we're literally talking about 4* players not being able to properly compete in their own tier unless they have a way to deal with Kitty. One of the best ways currently is Bishop. This is counterplay at work. So yes, if you nerfed Bishop to oblivion, that would very much affect 4* land and to dismiss this with "well, you should have problems" does not cut it.

    I'm not saying that Bishop's interaction with 5* characters shouldn't be looked at -- a Bishop counter is certainly fair and maybe we could find a way to adjust Bishop in a way that removes his unintended interaction with 5* match damage, as Rod5 suggested. (Although we all know how likely the chance of "small adjustments" are...) But seriously, in 4* land Bishop is working as intended and is a needed counter against a 5* character that extremely dominating a lower tier and that is a valid concern for 4* players.
    Great post.  After looking at this entire thread, i bet there are people here who, if i went through their post history, have posted and been very much against nerfs to the meta team/character.

    Back in the day, all the way up to the present, someone has complained about the meta.  i won't recap all the teams, but I promise, there have been many.  and every time it would come up, the "haves" would tell the "have-nots" to suck it up, deal with it, git gud newb, etc.  "Just say no to nerfs, I spent time and money on this team, i worked in chat rooms to store up resources to save for a meta team," and on and on.  but it boiled down to the same point: i got mine, and i don't appreciate you trying to get yours.

    First, someone else always comes along.  Always.  Always. Seriously, always.  Again, i mean it, always. 

    Second, reworks(nerfs) rarely work out for the intended character.  just ask oml, gambit, etc, again, the list is long of attempted reworks where the character is hardly ever used again, if at all.  Again, i bet some people asking for a nerf have griped at one point about "useless toons" on their roster, and yet here they are, asking the devs to make another one.

    Third, being able to punch up is the great equalizer.  it adds a little more luck into the game.  Does it suck for you?  Probably.  It sucked for other people coming up under you, when they did not have a counter to someone bigger, tougher and stronger then them.  it's weird, because people are obviously out there, using Bishop, and scoring rewards.  you are mad because they are winning and you aren't?  we should knock him down so it goes back to how it was, with *you* winning again?

    i've only been running to 900 this season because life has been crazy, but between the 2 slices i have been running in, i *rarely* see bishop.  so i will give the same advice given to others when they complained years ago:

    find a different slice.  join a line group to coordinate your climb.  find a different time to climb.  shield out and accept lower rewards.
  • WEBGAS
    WEBGAS Posts: 474 Mover and Shaker
    CharlieCroker said:
    .

    But this is not a case of have and have-nots.  Most of the names here I see asking for the nerfs are well established 5* players who also have their own Bishops.  They are just fed up with an unfun OP broken mechanic.
    It's very simple to ask for a nerf on a character that CAN SLOW your climbing in PVP, when you have plenty of other 5* champed characters, isn't it?

    NO MORE NERFS, ONLY BUFFS!!!
  • Rod5
    Rod5 Posts: 587 Critical Contributor
    WEBGAS said:
    CharlieCroker said:
    .

    But this is not a case of have and have-nots.  Most of the names here I see asking for the nerfs are well established 5* players who also have their own Bishops.  They are just fed up with an unfun OP broken mechanic.
    It's very simple to ask for a nerf on a character that CAN SLOW your climbing in PVP, when you have plenty of other 5* champed characters, isn't it?

    NO MORE NERFS, ONLY BUFFS!!!
    I’m not sure you really understand the point of this thread. Probably because you haven’t experienced what any 5* players have.

    Ultimately, like I say if you remove base match damage from his passive threshold then he will still work against Kitty but not as pure Kryptonite to EVERY SINGLE 5* CHARACTER IN THE GAME.

    Kitty is a different matter entirely, but there are counters to her, both in 5* land (Doom) and 4* land (all of the above mentioned). There is no 5* Bishop counter, and believe me I’ve tried everything including Surfer/Ock/XFool/Bishop etc, all end up as 50:50 at best. And always slow and boring.

    Nerf as above please!

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