Sm0keyJ0e said: Zeofar said: So, people keep brainstorming targeted designs for Bishop counters but seem to be ignoring the fact that the literal latest 5 star character has the fastest stun in the game. Getting hit by an early stun is a pretty effective counter for a character whose entire shtick is generating value every turn. It takes a very specific board for this to work. One, you have to match blue straightaway with no cascades (enemy has gained 5 blue). Next turn, you have to hope there is a blue match with Bobby's CD's on them. If that works, great you may have stunned him for a turn or two. If not, enemy now has 10 blue.Edit: and it's not the fastest stun in the game, that title goes to enemy Bishop. Literally 0 moves to start a stun train.
Zeofar said: So, people keep brainstorming targeted designs for Bishop counters but seem to be ignoring the fact that the literal latest 5 star character has the fastest stun in the game. Getting hit by an early stun is a pretty effective counter for a character whose entire shtick is generating value every turn.
jp1 said: So if SS jumped to the front whenever a stun is fired, would that be an acceptable counter to those who think Bishop is needing a nerf?
Zeofar said: Sm0keyJ0e said: Zeofar said: So, people keep brainstorming targeted designs for Bishop counters but seem to be ignoring the fact that the literal latest 5 star character has the fastest stun in the game. Getting hit by an early stun is a pretty effective counter for a character whose entire shtick is generating value every turn. It takes a very specific board for this to work. One, you have to match blue straightaway with no cascades (enemy has gained 5 blue). Next turn, you have to hope there is a blue match with Bobby's CD's on them. If that works, great you may have stunned him for a turn or two. If not, enemy now has 10 blue.Edit: and it's not the fastest stun in the game, that title goes to enemy Bishop. Literally 0 moves to start a stun train. If the design you're looking for means that Bishop is guaranteed to do fully nothing in the match based on character selection, then I think you're bound for disappointment when it comes to counters. Bishop getting one use of a power sometimes isn't the end of the world. And, sure, enemy Bishop can be faster but that isn't a particularly useful quality for team building as you cannot include enemy Bishop on your own team.
tiomono said:This would also affect medusa if you happen to match away 2 of your own specials during your own turn. I cannot think of any other characters that can easily gain 4 or more ap during the opponents turn.
sambrookjm said: tiomono said:This would also affect medusa if you happen to match away 2 of your own specials during your own turn. I cannot think of any other characters that can easily gain 4 or more ap during the opponents turn. 4-star Carol's passive with 5 covers can also do the trick.3-star Black Panther's Rage of the Panther gives the enemy team 5 AP.I think there's another ability that gives the enemy team 1 black AP? - Edit. Yes, Namor's Mercy, but it costs 11, so you'd need some pretty weird events to occur to fire that off four times in a turn.
BigSoftieFF said: Honest question. Is an undercovered and underleveled Kitty that much different than Guardians in 4* tier? I only ask cause I remember when I could finally counter them and am curious on if the same counters work.
tiomono said: Zeofar said: If the design you're looking for means that Bishop is guaranteed to do fully nothing in the match based on character selection, then I think you're bound for disappointment when it comes to counters. Bishop getting one use of a power sometimes isn't the end of the world. And, sure, enemy Bishop can be faster but that isn't a particularly useful quality for team building as you cannot include enemy Bishop on your own team. If an opponent gains 4 or more ap during your turn stun them or send them airborne. Let him do his damage and gain his 5 blue. But he gets either stunned or sent airborne for it. He stays the same but gets punished somehow for doing what he does.This would also affect medusa if you happen to match away 2 of your own specials during your own turn. I cannot think of any other characters that can easily gain 4 or more ap during the opponents turn.
Zeofar said: If the design you're looking for means that Bishop is guaranteed to do fully nothing in the match based on character selection, then I think you're bound for disappointment when it comes to counters. Bishop getting one use of a power sometimes isn't the end of the world. And, sure, enemy Bishop can be faster but that isn't a particularly useful quality for team building as you cannot include enemy Bishop on your own team.
Zeofar said: tiomono said: Zeofar said: If the design you're looking for means that Bishop is guaranteed to do fully nothing in the match based on character selection, then I think you're bound for disappointment when it comes to counters. Bishop getting one use of a power sometimes isn't the end of the world. And, sure, enemy Bishop can be faster but that isn't a particularly useful quality for team building as you cannot include enemy Bishop on your own team. If an opponent gains 4 or more ap during your turn stun them or send them airborne. Let him do his damage and gain his 5 blue. But he gets either stunned or sent airborne for it. He stays the same but gets punished somehow for doing what he does.This would also affect medusa if you happen to match away 2 of your own specials during your own turn. I cannot think of any other characters that can easily gain 4 or more ap during the opponents turn. I don't think it's impossible (or even remotely difficult) to design an ability that affects Bishop and only Bishop, but an ability that specific is inherently questionable and only pushes the game further into boring rock-paper-scissors designs.
Sm0keyJ0e said: Don't get me wrong, I can sympathise with the 5* players issue with Bishop, seems however that this a one way street with Kitty in return. Why is that? I guess my argument is you should have a problem with characters from a tier higher than your own.
Don't get me wrong, I can sympathise with the 5* players issue with Bishop, seems however that this a one way street with Kitty in return. Why is that?
justsing said: BigSoftieFF said: Honest question. Is an undercovered and underleveled Kitty that much different than Guardians in 4* tier? I only ask cause I remember when I could finally counter them and am curious on if the same counters work. You don’t need Bishop to beat unchamped Kitty teams in 4* land, especially the non-Gritty Kitty teams. I would know. I stayed in 4* land for months before champing my 5*s. Defensive and board shake characters like MEH, Rogue, and Dazzler all worked great. They just weren’t scary on defense, so you couldn’t float at high points (oh no lol)
AlexR said: Sm0keyJ0e said: Don't get me wrong, I can sympathise with the 5* players issue with Bishop, seems however that this a one way street with Kitty in return. Why is that? I guess my argument is you should have a problem with characters from a tier higher than your own. That's a reasonable argument if we're talking about a 4* player using 4* characters trying to compete against 5* players using 5* characters. It's a terrible argument when we're talking about a 5* character that has fully entered and utterly dominates the 4* meta. She's everywhere in 4* land. If that higher tier character is everywhere in the lower tier pvp meta, then you need some way to deal with it to compete in your own tier. Not to mention, you simply cannot reach 2k points in Sim as a 4* player against other 4* players, unless you can beat Kitty teams. Trying to fight Kitty teams as a 4* player is often a huuuge gamble, unless you run Bishop/Deadpool. Even teams that can deal with Kitty most of the time are still kinda board-luck dependent to win, and only ever one bad cascade away from a loss... except Bishop/Deadpool.So, "you should have problems" is pretty weak, because we're literally talking about 4* players not being able to properly compete in their own tier unless they have a way to deal with Kitty. One of the best ways currently is Bishop. This is counterplay at work. So yes, if you nerfed Bishop to oblivion, that would very much affect 4* land and to dismiss this with "well, you should have problems" does not cut it. I'm not saying that Bishop's interaction with 5* characters shouldn't be looked at -- a Bishop counter is certainly fair and maybe we could find a way to adjust Bishop in a way that removes his unintended interaction with 5* match damage, as Rod5 suggested. (Although we all know how likely the chance of "small adjustments" are...) But seriously, in 4* land Bishop is working as intended and is a needed counter against a 5* character that extremely dominating a lower tier and that is a valid concern for 4* players.
CharlieCroker said: .But this is not a case of have and have-nots. Most of the names here I see asking for the nerfs are well established 5* players who also have their own Bishops. They are just fed up with an unfun OP broken mechanic.
WEBGAS said: CharlieCroker said: .But this is not a case of have and have-nots. Most of the names here I see asking for the nerfs are well established 5* players who also have their own Bishops. They are just fed up with an unfun OP broken mechanic. It's very simple to ask for a nerf on a character that CAN SLOW your climbing in PVP, when you have plenty of other 5* champed characters, isn't it?NO MORE NERFS, ONLY BUFFS!!!