Nerf Bishop

Sm0keyJ0e

You are wanting to nerf someone above your tier because she beats up on you. I want to nerf someone beneath my tier because it's nearly impossible to fight him due to my being a 5* roster.

If you want to pick someone out of the 3* tier (assuming you are a 4* player) that is causing you problems, we can compare nerfs.

DAZ0273

Sm0keyJ0e said:

You are wanting to nerf someone above your tier because she beats up on you. I want to nerf someone beneath my tier because it's nearly impossible to fight him due to my being a 5* roster.

If you want to pick someone out of the 3* tier (assuming you are a 4* player) that is causing you problems, we can compare nerfs.

No - I don't want to nerf anybody.

This is what happened so far as far as I can ascertain:

OP wants to nerf Bishop. Read the name of the thread. "Nerf Bishop". Not "Nerf Kitty". "Nerf Bishop".

Bishop is a reliable defence against Kitty based teams.

OK - let's nerf Bishop but can we nerf Kitty because losing Bishop means things at our level of play become harder/less enjoyable? Then we all benefit.

No.

Well OK then...

DAZ0273

ZootSax said:

DAZ0273 said:

You say that yet I see her on many, many, many, many teams that are clearly "not good" whether they are poor Gritty's or other varieties and yet are apparently doing OK for that player as they are running that Kitty cover over other options they have in their roster who are levelled higher. Kitty + Daken? Check. Kitty + low cover OML? Check. Kitty + Carnage? Check. Kitty + Gamora w/out Rocket? Check. Goes on and on. So much Kitty, everywhere.

Her yellow starts it's work as soon as there are enough specials with ANY applicable partner, I see it as an exact correlation with OML (and he should not have been Nerfed either). Unless you can do something about her straight away or just overpower her then she shuts down the 4* tier and below in the same way that Bishop shuts down the 5* tier as being nothing more than an iso skip because she rampsup from nothing to you are all dead in very little time. Just based on her Yellow passive.

Your examples are still teams which deliberately play to Kitty's strengths by creating special tiles.  @tiomono 's point was that pre-nerf OML with a yellow cover was used at all tiers regardless of who he was paired with.   I was a 2-3* transitioner who had never pulled a 5* cover for much of the time prior to OML's nerf and EVERY player I found in my MMR who had one ran a 255-285 OML if they had a yellow cover, regardless of the weekly boost list or other comparable 5* options on their roster (with the sole exception being Patch's PVP, for obvious reasons).  If you're a 2* or 3* player today and you had a variety of minimally-covered 5*'s, you'd rarely be ahead running Kitty with fairly common teams like IM40/Strange, Stormnedo and the like which don't rely on special tile creation.  Pre-nerf OML was basically the default option for those same types of players, albeit at a different time in the game when there were a fraction of the current 5* options.

All that said, your points on the nerf issue are fair ones.  Personally, I'd like to see Bishop's damage threshold brought more in line with similar abilities (4* Deadpool, 3* Hulk, 3* Carol, etc), but with the game's history of rebalancing I expect any change to utterly destroy the character.

Zoot, not trying to argue but I have come across 2* players using Kitty! And I myself had a 2 cover yellow OML so know how useful he was! She is everywhere just like he was. If we followed the Dev's logic there is only one conclusion but...again, this is not about nerfing Kitty - it is about nerfing Bishop without dealing with Kitty! A subtle but distinct difference I seem to be failing miserably to convey. 😶 Not the forums problem that I am useless at trying to make a point! 😀

Sm0keyJ0e

I think I understand your point--you are having a hard time fighting Kitty/Rocket and need Bishop in his current state and/or you are sick of getting hit by small teams running Kitty (presumably with Rocket?) 

I'd suggest that Rocket is the problem--not Kitty. And if you're all for a tit-for-tat, I'd be happy nerfing them both. Both are extremely lazy design and do stuff for free with no counter right out of the gate (although Rocket is much easier to deal with these days in the 4/5* tiers).

tiomono

DAZ0273 said:

Sm0keyJ0e said:

DAZ0273 said:

<snip> I was attacked by 3 Kitty teams today which had the following Kitty builds - 2/0/0, 1/2/0, 1/2/1. These were not players on my level but could still beat my teams thanks to a low cover 5* interfering with normal play and throwing out the norm at my level of play. I looked at their rosters - they had a level 375 Thanos, a very well covered/levelled Strange and another had high level OML and a Phoenix, all 375+. I'm a deep 4* player with nigh on 4 years of experience in this game and players are attacking me with 2/0/0 Kitty teams, winning and that isn't broken?!?!? <snip>

Can't speak for everyone, but my issues with Bishop have little to do with teams beating me with him. I have a well-developed 5* roster and I get hit by baby Thor/Okoye teams all the time. Big whoop. That's the name of the game--player vs. player.

My issue with Bishop is game play mechanics, the high odds things will go poorly, and the simple un-fun feeling of having your whole team stunned with little to no strategy involved in the enemy doing so. There is no counter to Bishop.

There are a million counters to various Kitty/Rocket teams in both the 4* and 5* tier.

And my issue with Gritty is that unless you are fortunate with board placement, Gritty/Kitty teams kill you in next to no time, even if you have brought along the likes of  Sabretooth (who by the way needs Okoye to be effective, another 5*). And Kitty is EVERYWHERE! Bishop at least fights back no matter what. So you wanna take away my trusty counter measure and leaving me with my problem instead of us both getting rid of our respective problems together?

Also - in the 5* tier there are 2 characters who are unstunnable, so that simply isn't true that no counter to Bishop exists that 5* players have no access to. Just because you don't wanna use them doesn't mean they aren't there.

Don't get me wrong, I can sympathise with the 5* players issue with Bishop, seems however that this a one way street with Kitty in return. Why is that?

Sabretooth does not need okoye to be effective. Boardshake is actually fairly effective vs gritty. Sabretooth brings plenty of boardshake vs strike spammers. 

Silver surfer stops bishop's stun automatically. Doc ock needs to first make a match 4 or 5 and keep his tentacle tile on the board to be immune to stun. Neither of these characters address what I feel is the bigger problem with bishop.

Take Bishops stun out of the equation entirely. As a 5* player you make a match 3 and gain 3 of that color on your first turn and do about 2k damage to the enemy. Versus bishop you also just took about 4k damage and gave the enemy 5 blue. Now it's the enemies turn. This is on the same level of frustration as facing 5* Gambit.

DAZ0273

Sm0keyJ0e said:

I think I understand your point--you are having a hard time fighting Kitty/Rocket and need Bishop in his current state and/or you are sick of getting hit by small teams running Kitty (presumably with Rocket?) 

I'd suggest that Rocket is the problem--not Kitty. And if you're all for a tit-for-tat, I'd be happy nerfing them both. Both are extremely lazy design and do stuff for free with no counter right out of the gate (although Rocket is much easier to deal with these days in the 4/5* tiers).

It isn't tit for tat so much as "two birds with one stone". But if it stays as is then we all muddle through.

BigSoftieFF

Honest question. Is an undercovered and underleveled Kitty that much different than Guardians in 4* tier? I only ask cause I remember when I could finally counter them and am curious on if the same counters work.

CharlieCroker

Just like Gambit 1.0 and 2.0, it was painfully obvious to me from the first time I saw his numbers that Bishop was OP when matched against 5* teams.  He doesn't just cause issues for the meta teams, his passives are triggered by almost any champed 5*s match damage (and for that matter any decently sized boosted 4* in a regular PvP fight as I found out to my detriment).

The key for me though isn't just that he is OP, its more that he sucks the fun out of the game and just like my own experience of Gambit, he isn't particularly fun to use either (and of course will use a healthpack every 1/2 matches).  As other posters have mentioned, you can make an innocent match 3, cause a mini cascade, and end up stunlocked for the next few turns. 

Also just as with Gambit, you're kinda forced to use Bishop past a certain score otherwise you will get decimated by other climbers who, probably just like you, are targeting any teams without him almost regardless of points (although outside Sim this is only when boosted which fortunately isn't too often).

I appreciate why 4* players may not want to see a nerf, however the devs have introduced other Gritty counters including Sabretooth who can be very effective between his passive and two cheap, hard hitting actives.

With regards to Kitty, I wouldn't support a nerf in general, although her 'other' passive can be problematic where the essentials automatically generate strikes/protects/countdowns such as 3* Fist, Cage & Switch.  However for the reasons the 4* players have outlined, I would in no way be surprised if it happened, particularly if the devs metrics showed heavier usage than they consider desirable ala the stated reasons for the OML nerf.

DAZ0273

tiomono said:

DAZ0273 said:

Sm0keyJ0e said:

DAZ0273 said:

<snip> I was attacked by 3 Kitty teams today which had the following Kitty builds - 2/0/0, 1/2/0, 1/2/1. These were not players on my level but could still beat my teams thanks to a low cover 5* interfering with normal play and throwing out the norm at my level of play. I looked at their rosters - they had a level 375 Thanos, a very well covered/levelled Strange and another had high level OML and a Phoenix, all 375+. I'm a deep 4* player with nigh on 4 years of experience in this game and players are attacking me with 2/0/0 Kitty teams, winning and that isn't broken?!?!? <snip>

Can't speak for everyone, but my issues with Bishop have little to do with teams beating me with him. I have a well-developed 5* roster and I get hit by baby Thor/Okoye teams all the time. Big whoop. That's the name of the game--player vs. player.

My issue with Bishop is game play mechanics, the high odds things will go poorly, and the simple un-fun feeling of having your whole team stunned with little to no strategy involved in the enemy doing so. There is no counter to Bishop.

There are a million counters to various Kitty/Rocket teams in both the 4* and 5* tier.

And my issue with Gritty is that unless you are fortunate with board placement, Gritty/Kitty teams kill you in next to no time, even if you have brought along the likes of  Sabretooth (who by the way needs Okoye to be effective, another 5*). And Kitty is EVERYWHERE! Bishop at least fights back no matter what. So you wanna take away my trusty counter measure and leaving me with my problem instead of us both getting rid of our respective problems together?

Also - in the 5* tier there are 2 characters who are unstunnable, so that simply isn't true that no counter to Bishop exists that 5* players have no access to. Just because you don't wanna use them doesn't mean they aren't there.

Don't get me wrong, I can sympathise with the 5* players issue with Bishop, seems however that this a one way street with Kitty in return. Why is that?

Sabretooth does not need okoye to be effective. Boardshake is actually fairly effective vs gritty. Sabretooth brings plenty of boardshake vs strike spammers. 

Silver surfer stops bishop's stun automatically. Doc ock needs to first make a match 4 or 5 and keep his tentacle tile on the board to be immune to stun. Neither of these characters address what I feel is the bigger problem with bishop.

Take Bishops stun out of the equation entirely. As a 5* player you make a match 3 and gain 3 of that color on your first turn and do about 2k damage to the enemy. Versus bishop you also just took about 4k damage and gave the enemy 5 blue. Now it's the enemies turn. This is on the same level of frustration as facing 5* Gambit.

I'm pretty sure we all understand and appreciate what you are saying. Bishop = no fun for 5* players. Let's fix that for you. However 4* players should suck it up vs Gritty, etc because.... X y z? Well OK then.

That is fine but then don't expect 4* players to roll over and have their belly tickled either. As a player base/forum we either work together for the benefit of all or...we don't.

jp1

Sm0keyJ0e said:

jp1 said:

Sign me up for the “No nerf” level of VIP please.

I never understand this line of thinking. When is a toon so broken on release that it has to be re-balanced? If Bishop gained 10 blue ap instead of 5, would that be a problem? What about 20? What if he was released and only gained 3 blue ap? Would he have still felt viable?

I'll reiterate, I'm generally against re-balances in MPQ because they don't know how to do them. But every other mobile RPG game in this vein does rebalances. EVERY ONE OF THEM. And there's a reason--once you have a wide breadth of cards/toons/characters/whatever, it's hard to predict the interactions with each other. The player base generally finds them and exploits them. And that's what's happening here.

Bishop isn’t a 5 doomed to the neverlands of classics. He is very attainable...as such you can also use him in your fight against him. You might lose, that’s not “broken” that’s how it should work. Every team shouldn’t be an auto loss on defense. 

I am against nerfs entirely because the resultant character is entirely useless afterwards. Taking things away from people in a paid content game is robbery IMO, even if it is attainable through FTP means. Time/resources could have been spent on someone who will stick around. If anything too many of the toons are too weak. Buffs to even things out in 5* land, I’m in support of.

Sm0keyJ0e

Bringing your own Bishop is actually worse for 5* players. You make a match, trigger enemy Bishop +5 blue ap, then enemy Bishop hits and your Bishop jumps to the front, hitting enemy Bishop for another +5 blue ap. They haven't even made a move yet, have 10 blue ap and can now stun someone for 4 turns! Next turn: rinse and repeat. 

This is BROKEN game design. I'm not talking about losing or having a tough defensive team to beat or anything like that. I don't mind losing and I don't care about getting hit. This is just flat out broken. 

I have yet to see a legitimate argument for any other character in the game that does this. It's worse than Gambit 2.0 because you could bring your own Gambit. Bringing your own Bishop is a 50/50 prop at best.

tiomono

DAZ0273 said:

tiomono said:

DAZ0273 said:

Sm0keyJ0e said:

DAZ0273 said:

<snip> I was attacked by 3 Kitty teams today which had the following Kitty builds - 2/0/0, 1/2/0, 1/2/1. These were not players on my level but could still beat my teams thanks to a low cover 5* interfering with normal play and throwing out the norm at my level of play. I looked at their rosters - they had a level 375 Thanos, a very well covered/levelled Strange and another had high level OML and a Phoenix, all 375+. I'm a deep 4* player with nigh on 4 years of experience in this game and players are attacking me with 2/0/0 Kitty teams, winning and that isn't broken?!?!? <snip>

Can't speak for everyone, but my issues with Bishop have little to do with teams beating me with him. I have a well-developed 5* roster and I get hit by baby Thor/Okoye teams all the time. Big whoop. That's the name of the game--player vs. player.

My issue with Bishop is game play mechanics, the high odds things will go poorly, and the simple un-fun feeling of having your whole team stunned with little to no strategy involved in the enemy doing so. There is no counter to Bishop.

There are a million counters to various Kitty/Rocket teams in both the 4* and 5* tier.

And my issue with Gritty is that unless you are fortunate with board placement, Gritty/Kitty teams kill you in next to no time, even if you have brought along the likes of  Sabretooth (who by the way needs Okoye to be effective, another 5*). And Kitty is EVERYWHERE! Bishop at least fights back no matter what. So you wanna take away my trusty counter measure and leaving me with my problem instead of us both getting rid of our respective problems together?

Also - in the 5* tier there are 2 characters who are unstunnable, so that simply isn't true that no counter to Bishop exists that 5* players have no access to. Just because you don't wanna use them doesn't mean they aren't there.

Don't get me wrong, I can sympathise with the 5* players issue with Bishop, seems however that this a one way street with Kitty in return. Why is that?

Sabretooth does not need okoye to be effective. Boardshake is actually fairly effective vs gritty. Sabretooth brings plenty of boardshake vs strike spammers. 

Silver surfer stops bishop's stun automatically. Doc ock needs to first make a match 4 or 5 and keep his tentacle tile on the board to be immune to stun. Neither of these characters address what I feel is the bigger problem with bishop.

Take Bishops stun out of the equation entirely. As a 5* player you make a match 3 and gain 3 of that color on your first turn and do about 2k damage to the enemy. Versus bishop you also just took about 4k damage and gave the enemy 5 blue. Now it's the enemies turn. This is on the same level of frustration as facing 5* Gambit.

I'm pretty sure we all understand and appreciate what you are saying. Bishop = no fun for 5* players. Let's fix that for you. However 4* players should suck it up vs Gritty, etc because.... X y z? Well OK then.

That is fine but then don't expect 4* players to roll over and have their belly tickled either. As a player base/forum we either work together for the benefit of all or...we don't.

I have not said we need to nerf bishop. I have not said 4* players need to suck it up vs gritty. I will say again that bishop is not the only counter vs gritty. 

I have been saying make a character in the 5* tier to deal with bishop specifically. That does nothing to take bishop away from being a counter to gritty and the rest of the 5* tier.

I think we both pretty much agree. Let the new characters coming out continue to expand the meta and provide options. Do not nerf what we have but give us more options to deal with the problems we have in our tiers of play.

The 4* tier has a variety of ways to deal with many problems, including kitty. The 5* tier has no way to deal with bishop effectively yet.

Sm0keyJ0e

tiomono said:

DAZ0273 said:

tiomono said:

DAZ0273 said:

Sm0keyJ0e said:

DAZ0273 said:

<snip> I was attacked by 3 Kitty teams today which had the following Kitty builds - 2/0/0, 1/2/0, 1/2/1. These were not players on my level but could still beat my teams thanks to a low cover 5* interfering with normal play and throwing out the norm at my level of play. I looked at their rosters - they had a level 375 Thanos, a very well covered/levelled Strange and another had high level OML and a Phoenix, all 375+. I'm a deep 4* player with nigh on 4 years of experience in this game and players are attacking me with 2/0/0 Kitty teams, winning and that isn't broken?!?!? <snip>

Can't speak for everyone, but my issues with Bishop have little to do with teams beating me with him. I have a well-developed 5* roster and I get hit by baby Thor/Okoye teams all the time. Big whoop. That's the name of the game--player vs. player.

My issue with Bishop is game play mechanics, the high odds things will go poorly, and the simple un-fun feeling of having your whole team stunned with little to no strategy involved in the enemy doing so. There is no counter to Bishop.

There are a million counters to various Kitty/Rocket teams in both the 4* and 5* tier.

And my issue with Gritty is that unless you are fortunate with board placement, Gritty/Kitty teams kill you in next to no time, even if you have brought along the likes of  Sabretooth (who by the way needs Okoye to be effective, another 5*). And Kitty is EVERYWHERE! Bishop at least fights back no matter what. So you wanna take away my trusty counter measure and leaving me with my problem instead of us both getting rid of our respective problems together?

Also - in the 5* tier there are 2 characters who are unstunnable, so that simply isn't true that no counter to Bishop exists that 5* players have no access to. Just because you don't wanna use them doesn't mean they aren't there.

Don't get me wrong, I can sympathise with the 5* players issue with Bishop, seems however that this a one way street with Kitty in return. Why is that?

Sabretooth does not need okoye to be effective. Boardshake is actually fairly effective vs gritty. Sabretooth brings plenty of boardshake vs strike spammers. 

Silver surfer stops bishop's stun automatically. Doc ock needs to first make a match 4 or 5 and keep his tentacle tile on the board to be immune to stun. Neither of these characters address what I feel is the bigger problem with bishop.

Take Bishops stun out of the equation entirely. As a 5* player you make a match 3 and gain 3 of that color on your first turn and do about 2k damage to the enemy. Versus bishop you also just took about 4k damage and gave the enemy 5 blue. Now it's the enemies turn. This is on the same level of frustration as facing 5* Gambit.

I'm pretty sure we all understand and appreciate what you are saying. Bishop = no fun for 5* players. Let's fix that for you. However 4* players should suck it up vs Gritty, etc because.... X y z? Well OK then.

That is fine but then don't expect 4* players to roll over and have their belly tickled either. As a player base/forum we either work together for the benefit of all or...we don't.

I have not said we need to nerf bishop. I have not said 4* players need to suck it up vs gritty. I will say again that bishop is not the only counter vs gritty. 

I have been saying make a character in the 5* tier to deal with bishop specifically. That does nothing to take bishop away from being a counter to gritty and the rest of the 5* tier.

I think we both pretty much agree. Let the new characters coming out continue to expand the meta and provide options. Do not nerf what we have but give us more options to deal with the problems we have in our tiers of play.

The 4* tier has a variety of ways to deal with many problems, including kitty. The 5* tier has no way to deal with bishop effectively yet.

I'd be on board with this but can't envision a counter that doesn't itself become a problem. You create someone that can deal with stuns and now every stunner in the game is nerfed.

Kojubat

Sm0keyJ0e said:

tiomono said:

DAZ0273 said:

tiomono said:

DAZ0273 said:

Sm0keyJ0e said:

DAZ0273 said:

<snip> I was attacked by 3 Kitty teams today which had the following Kitty builds - 2/0/0, 1/2/0, 1/2/1. These were not players on my level but could still beat my teams thanks to a low cover 5* interfering with normal play and throwing out the norm at my level of play. I looked at their rosters - they had a level 375 Thanos, a very well covered/levelled Strange and another had high level OML and a Phoenix, all 375+. I'm a deep 4* player with nigh on 4 years of experience in this game and players are attacking me with 2/0/0 Kitty teams, winning and that isn't broken?!?!? <snip>

Can't speak for everyone, but my issues with Bishop have little to do with teams beating me with him. I have a well-developed 5* roster and I get hit by baby Thor/Okoye teams all the time. Big whoop. That's the name of the game--player vs. player.

My issue with Bishop is game play mechanics, the high odds things will go poorly, and the simple un-fun feeling of having your whole team stunned with little to no strategy involved in the enemy doing so. There is no counter to Bishop.

There are a million counters to various Kitty/Rocket teams in both the 4* and 5* tier.

And my issue with Gritty is that unless you are fortunate with board placement, Gritty/Kitty teams kill you in next to no time, even if you have brought along the likes of  Sabretooth (who by the way needs Okoye to be effective, another 5*). And Kitty is EVERYWHERE! Bishop at least fights back no matter what. So you wanna take away my trusty counter measure and leaving me with my problem instead of us both getting rid of our respective problems together?

Also - in the 5* tier there are 2 characters who are unstunnable, so that simply isn't true that no counter to Bishop exists that 5* players have no access to. Just because you don't wanna use them doesn't mean they aren't there.

Don't get me wrong, I can sympathise with the 5* players issue with Bishop, seems however that this a one way street with Kitty in return. Why is that?

Sabretooth does not need okoye to be effective. Boardshake is actually fairly effective vs gritty. Sabretooth brings plenty of boardshake vs strike spammers. 

Silver surfer stops bishop's stun automatically. Doc ock needs to first make a match 4 or 5 and keep his tentacle tile on the board to be immune to stun. Neither of these characters address what I feel is the bigger problem with bishop.

Take Bishops stun out of the equation entirely. As a 5* player you make a match 3 and gain 3 of that color on your first turn and do about 2k damage to the enemy. Versus bishop you also just took about 4k damage and gave the enemy 5 blue. Now it's the enemies turn. This is on the same level of frustration as facing 5* Gambit.

I'm pretty sure we all understand and appreciate what you are saying. Bishop = no fun for 5* players. Let's fix that for you. However 4* players should suck it up vs Gritty, etc because.... X y z? Well OK then.

That is fine but then don't expect 4* players to roll over and have their belly tickled either. As a player base/forum we either work together for the benefit of all or...we don't.

I have not said we need to nerf bishop. I have not said 4* players need to suck it up vs gritty. I will say again that bishop is not the only counter vs gritty. 

I have been saying make a character in the 5* tier to deal with bishop specifically. That does nothing to take bishop away from being a counter to gritty and the rest of the 5* tier.

I think we both pretty much agree. Let the new characters coming out continue to expand the meta and provide options. Do not nerf what we have but give us more options to deal with the problems we have in our tiers of play.

The 4* tier has a variety of ways to deal with many problems, including kitty. The 5* tier has no way to deal with bishop effectively yet.

I'd be on board with this but can't envision a counter that doesn't itself become a problem. You create someone that can deal with stuns and now every stunner in the game is nerfed.

I say make it convoluted and build the counter around the jump-in-front mechanic instead.

Send them airborne to further complicate things!

ThaRoadWarrior

You don't actually need to address all stuns as a condition directly to counter Bishop specifically. His stun is problematic from his ludicrous blue acquisition rate driven by an entirely too-low triggering threshold - if you can address how he rapidly gains AP, you can probably also pretty effectively counter the Thorkoye meta as well. 

So if you want to specifically address Bishop and not other stunners, you can have powers that get around the jump-in-front threshold:
1) At the start of battle, creates an effect of disabling all passive powers. something like Checkov's Gun here. If it's matched or otherwise destroyed, the effect is lifted, and it doesn't get replaced. Maybe op, maybe not. But this puts Bishop in the position of gathering blue the hard way, and the stats on that stun aren't out of control in the absence of his AP generating nonsense

2) Somebody with a passive that just removes all basic match damage, forcing both players to use powers. Again, probably OP as a blanket condition on a match, but maybe not if balanced against low health or something similar

3) a variation on the above, where all damage is aggregated into a bucket that releases all at once, but no damage is done until that point. Similar to Rogue's Gloves Off, just at the 5* tier. But the mechanism here again is preventing the trigger of Bishop's AP gathering. 

affect his blue AP pool specifically:
4) something similar to Hela's green, but working against blue. That way he has to struggle to get enough blue to actually fire the stun

5) Make a character that wants to get stunned, like original design 5* Doc Oc who used to be able to make auto-moves when stunned. So a cloak-and-dagger like character who when stunned just gets a second set of powers. or when stunned, they blanket disable enemy passives and siphon AP significantly; basically something that makes enemies think twice about using stuns

tiomono

Kojubat said:

Sm0keyJ0e said:

tiomono said:

DAZ0273 said:

tiomono said:

DAZ0273 said:

Sm0keyJ0e said:

DAZ0273 said:

<snip> I was attacked by 3 Kitty teams today which had the following Kitty builds - 2/0/0, 1/2/0, 1/2/1. These were not players on my level but could still beat my teams thanks to a low cover 5* interfering with normal play and throwing out the norm at my level of play. I looked at their rosters - they had a level 375 Thanos, a very well covered/levelled Strange and another had high level OML and a Phoenix, all 375+. I'm a deep 4* player with nigh on 4 years of experience in this game and players are attacking me with 2/0/0 Kitty teams, winning and that isn't broken?!?!? <snip>

Can't speak for everyone, but my issues with Bishop have little to do with teams beating me with him. I have a well-developed 5* roster and I get hit by baby Thor/Okoye teams all the time. Big whoop. That's the name of the game--player vs. player.

My issue with Bishop is game play mechanics, the high odds things will go poorly, and the simple un-fun feeling of having your whole team stunned with little to no strategy involved in the enemy doing so. There is no counter to Bishop.

There are a million counters to various Kitty/Rocket teams in both the 4* and 5* tier.

And my issue with Gritty is that unless you are fortunate with board placement, Gritty/Kitty teams kill you in next to no time, even if you have brought along the likes of  Sabretooth (who by the way needs Okoye to be effective, another 5*). And Kitty is EVERYWHERE! Bishop at least fights back no matter what. So you wanna take away my trusty counter measure and leaving me with my problem instead of us both getting rid of our respective problems together?

Also - in the 5* tier there are 2 characters who are unstunnable, so that simply isn't true that no counter to Bishop exists that 5* players have no access to. Just because you don't wanna use them doesn't mean they aren't there.

Don't get me wrong, I can sympathise with the 5* players issue with Bishop, seems however that this a one way street with Kitty in return. Why is that?

Sabretooth does not need okoye to be effective. Boardshake is actually fairly effective vs gritty. Sabretooth brings plenty of boardshake vs strike spammers. 

Silver surfer stops bishop's stun automatically. Doc ock needs to first make a match 4 or 5 and keep his tentacle tile on the board to be immune to stun. Neither of these characters address what I feel is the bigger problem with bishop.

Take Bishops stun out of the equation entirely. As a 5* player you make a match 3 and gain 3 of that color on your first turn and do about 2k damage to the enemy. Versus bishop you also just took about 4k damage and gave the enemy 5 blue. Now it's the enemies turn. This is on the same level of frustration as facing 5* Gambit.

I'm pretty sure we all understand and appreciate what you are saying. Bishop = no fun for 5* players. Let's fix that for you. However 4* players should suck it up vs Gritty, etc because.... X y z? Well OK then.

That is fine but then don't expect 4* players to roll over and have their belly tickled either. As a player base/forum we either work together for the benefit of all or...we don't.

I have not said we need to nerf bishop. I have not said 4* players need to suck it up vs gritty. I will say again that bishop is not the only counter vs gritty. 

I have been saying make a character in the 5* tier to deal with bishop specifically. That does nothing to take bishop away from being a counter to gritty and the rest of the 5* tier.

I think we both pretty much agree. Let the new characters coming out continue to expand the meta and provide options. Do not nerf what we have but give us more options to deal with the problems we have in our tiers of play.

The 4* tier has a variety of ways to deal with many problems, including kitty. The 5* tier has no way to deal with bishop effectively yet.

I'd be on board with this but can't envision a counter that doesn't itself become a problem. You create someone that can deal with stuns and now every stunner in the game is nerfed.

I say make it convoluted and build the counter around the jump-in-front mechanic instead.

Send them airborne to further complicate things!

I'm for countering enemy AP gain on my turn. I can't think of anyone else that consistently hits 4 or 5 ap gained on my turn except an enemy bishop. 

That leaves other characters alone but affects bishop.

Zeofar

So, people keep brainstorming targeted designs for Bishop counters but seem to be ignoring the fact that the literal latest 5 star character has the fastest stun in the game. Getting hit by an early stun is a pretty effective counter for a character whose entire shtick is generating value every turn.

658_2

Other than a possible coding issue, why does Bishop need to jump to the front at all? 

Sm0keyJ0e

Zeofar said:

So, people keep brainstorming targeted designs for Bishop counters but seem to be ignoring the fact that the literal latest 5 star character has the fastest stun in the game. Getting hit by an early stun is a pretty effective counter for a character whose entire shtick is generating value every turn.

It takes a very specific board for this to work. One, you have to match blue straightaway with no cascades (enemy has gained 5 blue). Next turn, you have to hope there is a blue match with Bobby's CD's on them. If that works, great you may have stunned him for a turn or two. If not, enemy now has 10 blue.

Edit: and it's not the fastest stun in the game, that title goes to enemy Bishop. Literally 0 moves to start a stun train.

DAZ0273

tiomono said:

DAZ0273 said:

tiomono said:

DAZ0273 said:

Sm0keyJ0e said:

DAZ0273 said:

<snip> I was attacked by 3 Kitty teams today which had the following Kitty builds - 2/0/0, 1/2/0, 1/2/1. These were not players on my level but could still beat my teams thanks to a low cover 5* interfering with normal play and throwing out the norm at my level of play. I looked at their rosters - they had a level 375 Thanos, a very well covered/levelled Strange and another had high level OML and a Phoenix, all 375+. I'm a deep 4* player with nigh on 4 years of experience in this game and players are attacking me with 2/0/0 Kitty teams, winning and that isn't broken?!?!? <snip>

Can't speak for everyone, but my issues with Bishop have little to do with teams beating me with him. I have a well-developed 5* roster and I get hit by baby Thor/Okoye teams all the time. Big whoop. That's the name of the game--player vs. player.

My issue with Bishop is game play mechanics, the high odds things will go poorly, and the simple un-fun feeling of having your whole team stunned with little to no strategy involved in the enemy doing so. There is no counter to Bishop.

There are a million counters to various Kitty/Rocket teams in both the 4* and 5* tier.

And my issue with Gritty is that unless you are fortunate with board placement, Gritty/Kitty teams kill you in next to no time, even if you have brought along the likes of  Sabretooth (who by the way needs Okoye to be effective, another 5*). And Kitty is EVERYWHERE! Bishop at least fights back no matter what. So you wanna take away my trusty counter measure and leaving me with my problem instead of us both getting rid of our respective problems together?

Also - in the 5* tier there are 2 characters who are unstunnable, so that simply isn't true that no counter to Bishop exists that 5* players have no access to. Just because you don't wanna use them doesn't mean they aren't there.

Don't get me wrong, I can sympathise with the 5* players issue with Bishop, seems however that this a one way street with Kitty in return. Why is that?

Sabretooth does not need okoye to be effective. Boardshake is actually fairly effective vs gritty. Sabretooth brings plenty of boardshake vs strike spammers. 

Silver surfer stops bishop's stun automatically. Doc ock needs to first make a match 4 or 5 and keep his tentacle tile on the board to be immune to stun. Neither of these characters address what I feel is the bigger problem with bishop.

Take Bishops stun out of the equation entirely. As a 5* player you make a match 3 and gain 3 of that color on your first turn and do about 2k damage to the enemy. Versus bishop you also just took about 4k damage and gave the enemy 5 blue. Now it's the enemies turn. This is on the same level of frustration as facing 5* Gambit.

I'm pretty sure we all understand and appreciate what you are saying. Bishop = no fun for 5* players. Let's fix that for you. However 4* players should suck it up vs Gritty, etc because.... X y z? Well OK then.

That is fine but then don't expect 4* players to roll over and have their belly tickled either. As a player base/forum we either work together for the benefit of all or...we don't.

I have not said we need to nerf bishop. I have not said 4* players need to suck it up vs gritty. I will say again that bishop is not the only counter vs gritty. 

I have been saying make a character in the 5* tier to deal with bishop specifically. That does nothing to take bishop away from being a counter to gritty and the rest of the 5* tier.

I think we both pretty much agree. Let the new characters coming out continue to expand the meta and provide options. Do not nerf what we have but give us more options to deal with the problems we have in our tiers of play.

The 4* tier has a variety of ways to deal with many problems, including kitty. The 5* tier has no way to deal with bishop effectively yet.

We 100% agree about expanding the game, see what happens.