KGB said: TranscendGod said: The new character, Juggernaut, is going to be absolutely insane with Gritty in PvPs where you can choose 3 characters. TinyGritty Bishop can be reasonably countered by Bishop, Peggy, Deadpool (and a few variants). It generally costs one health pack and is a nice quick win. JuggerGritty is going to be far more devastating. Your entire team is almost guaranteed to get hit by massive AOEs by the second turn. Sure, bishop and deadpool will return the favor and the fight will end quickly. But you're also going to be using far more health packs (perhaps 3 per match instead of 1), and if JuggerGritty gets a good cascade you just lose. It'll be a few months before many of the active 4* players champ Juggernaut; many of us are already saving heroics for him. If not for Kitty, AOE counters like Quake could work decently. But Kitty enables low level characters to do damage like 550+ characters. That's why she's OP (at sub champ levels). Nope. On offense, Kitty will tank at least 3 if not 4 of 7 colors so Juggs AOE won't trigger as often as if you just ran Juggs/Grocket/Gamora where it will trigger 100% of matches.On defense the AI will never trigger it since you'll target Kitty first, Grocket 2nd and Juggs 3rd. His AOE won't proc till you put him in front by which time you'll have removed the strikes or you'll be long dead.Also if you bring your own Bishop to such fights you'll have enough Blue on turn 2 / 3 to stun Juggs (or Kitty).So if you are running Juggs with Kitty you'll will 100% switch to Bishop on your last fight for Gritty/Bishop over Gritty/Juggs. KGB
TranscendGod said: The new character, Juggernaut, is going to be absolutely insane with Gritty in PvPs where you can choose 3 characters. TinyGritty Bishop can be reasonably countered by Bishop, Peggy, Deadpool (and a few variants). It generally costs one health pack and is a nice quick win. JuggerGritty is going to be far more devastating. Your entire team is almost guaranteed to get hit by massive AOEs by the second turn. Sure, bishop and deadpool will return the favor and the fight will end quickly. But you're also going to be using far more health packs (perhaps 3 per match instead of 1), and if JuggerGritty gets a good cascade you just lose. It'll be a few months before many of the active 4* players champ Juggernaut; many of us are already saving heroics for him. If not for Kitty, AOE counters like Quake could work decently. But Kitty enables low level characters to do damage like 550+ characters. That's why she's OP (at sub champ levels).
tiomono said: TranscendGod said: I'd also like to expand on Kitty Carnage, because most 5* players don't encounter this team (since it obviously works much less well in their meta). Kitty Carnage is far worse than Gritty in the 4* meta, and has much less effective counters. You are nearly guaranteed to take massive amounts of damage. With a reasonable chance of straight up losing. In a normal PvP with featured characters that aren't particularly useful, this team is an auto skip. Here's why:Unlike Gritty, this team does not automatically trigger bishop with matches (remember, we're talking about tinykitties that are mostly below level 400). So he doesn't do anything until Kitty starts boosting attack tiles to incredible amounts. At which point, his passive will often just trigger once per turn (instead of per match). By the time you can stun Kitty, you're looking at massive attack tiles scattered across the board that will devastate your team. Bishop dies quickly, Kitty becomes unstunned, and not only does she resume her insane tile pumping but her purple removes your attack tiles until dealing large amounts of damage. The new character, Juggernaut, is going to be absolutely insane with Gritty in PvPs where you can choose 3 characters. TinyGritty Bishop can be reasonably countered by Bishop, Peggy, Deadpool (and a few variants). It generally costs one health pack and is a nice quick win. JuggerGritty is going to be far more devastating. Your entire team is almost guaranteed to get hit by massive AOEs by the second turn. Sure, bishop and deadpool will return the favor and the fight will end quickly. But you're also going to be using far more health packs (perhaps 3 per match instead of 1), and if JuggerGritty gets a good cascade you just lose. It'll be a few months before many of the active 4* players champ Juggernaut; many of us are already saving heroics for him. If not for Kitty, AOE counters like Quake could work decently. But Kitty enables low level characters to do damage like 550+ characters. That's why she's OP (at sub champ levels). I would think medusa would love enemy teams with carnage. Free healing and extra ap nearly every turn both yours and theirs.This is about bishop though. Not kitty or gritty or juggity unless they include bishop.
TranscendGod said: I'd also like to expand on Kitty Carnage, because most 5* players don't encounter this team (since it obviously works much less well in their meta). Kitty Carnage is far worse than Gritty in the 4* meta, and has much less effective counters. You are nearly guaranteed to take massive amounts of damage. With a reasonable chance of straight up losing. In a normal PvP with featured characters that aren't particularly useful, this team is an auto skip. Here's why:Unlike Gritty, this team does not automatically trigger bishop with matches (remember, we're talking about tinykitties that are mostly below level 400). So he doesn't do anything until Kitty starts boosting attack tiles to incredible amounts. At which point, his passive will often just trigger once per turn (instead of per match). By the time you can stun Kitty, you're looking at massive attack tiles scattered across the board that will devastate your team. Bishop dies quickly, Kitty becomes unstunned, and not only does she resume her insane tile pumping but her purple removes your attack tiles until dealing large amounts of damage. The new character, Juggernaut, is going to be absolutely insane with Gritty in PvPs where you can choose 3 characters. TinyGritty Bishop can be reasonably countered by Bishop, Peggy, Deadpool (and a few variants). It generally costs one health pack and is a nice quick win. JuggerGritty is going to be far more devastating. Your entire team is almost guaranteed to get hit by massive AOEs by the second turn. Sure, bishop and deadpool will return the favor and the fight will end quickly. But you're also going to be using far more health packs (perhaps 3 per match instead of 1), and if JuggerGritty gets a good cascade you just lose. It'll be a few months before many of the active 4* players champ Juggernaut; many of us are already saving heroics for him. If not for Kitty, AOE counters like Quake could work decently. But Kitty enables low level characters to do damage like 550+ characters. That's why she's OP (at sub champ levels).
TranscendGod said:This thread is about whether or not Bishop should be nerfed in MPQ. Discussion about TinyKitty is relevant because he is the most effective counter for 4* players (and still arguably insufficient). And there's a broader discussion about which character is most important to change. TinyKitties are a bigger problem for a much larger % of the playerbase. It's true that many of the 5* players spend much more on average, so weighting it by spending might be somewhat more even. Nonetheless, if they are unwilling to release effective anti-bishop counters, he should only be nerfed if TinyKitty is also nerfed. Unless the nerf is well designed and only makes him weaker against champ 5s (perhaps by raising his damage threshold by a reasonable amount).
tiomono said: @TranscendGodMany people calling for nerfs to kitty based on her prevalence in lower tiers than 5* play will all call her either low levels or low covered. "At one yellow she is a problem."Your list of ineffective counters all seem to have very well covered kitties fighting them. If her purple is a problem for your countdown making friends she has 5 purple. If Kraven cannot keep up it's because she has multiple yellow covers. A level 345 kitty at 5 yellow can buff 5 tiles by 276 every turn. A level 288 kraven outpaces that when she has 8 specials on the board. That same level 345 kitty at 1 yellow is only boosting 5 tiles by 160 every turn. That level 288 champ kraven unboosted is only needing 4.5 tiles on the board to outpace kitties buffs. Any more than that and he is really outpacing her.For a player to have a 5 yellow or 5 purple cover kitty would mean they are transitioning out of 4* play. They should have easier times beating 4* teams but being beat by actual champ 5* teams.So are the problem kitties for 4* or 3* that are from level 300 to 400 high cover or no? A level 300 5* only has 3 covers. Level 400 has around 10 covers. A 10 cover 5 should absolutely be a problem in 4* play in my opinion.Edit: I copy pasted this from another discussion on kitty as I feel it's relevant here with people discussing bishop as the only viable defense vs kitty for 4* players.
justsing said: TranscendGod said:This thread is about whether or not Bishop should be nerfed in MPQ. Discussion about TinyKitty is relevant because he is the most effective counter for 4* players (and still arguably insufficient). And there's a broader discussion about which character is most important to change. TinyKitties are a bigger problem for a much larger % of the playerbase. It's true that many of the 5* players spend much more on average, so weighting it by spending might be somewhat more even. Nonetheless, if they are unwilling to release effective anti-bishop counters, he should only be nerfed if TinyKitty is also nerfed. Unless the nerf is well designed and only makes him weaker against champ 5s (perhaps by raising his damage threshold by a reasonable amount). I would be perfectly happy if Bishop were tweaked such that he’s still useful on offense for 4* players against Kitty teams while not being crazy OP against 5* match damage on defense. That’s still a nerf though. Any kind of adjustment to that effect, however small, would be a nerf. While some of us may be sick of seeing him and wouldn’t care if he were nerfed to the ground, we can accept that others don’t feel the same, especially given that he has a lot of value for 4* rosters in dealing with Kitty teams. That’s fine. But he still needs some kind of adjustment (nerf). The status quo is just not fun. As for counters, I think it’s ridiculous to need a 5* counter to a 4* character, yet a 4* counter would likely be OP. So I would rather they tweak Bishop instead of making a counter.
TranscendGod said: tiomono said: @TranscendGodMany people calling for nerfs to kitty based on her prevalence in lower tiers than 5* play will all call her either low levels or low covered. "At one yellow she is a problem."Your list of ineffective counters all seem to have very well covered kitties fighting them. If her purple is a problem for your countdown making friends she has 5 purple. If Kraven cannot keep up it's because she has multiple yellow covers. A level 345 kitty at 5 yellow can buff 5 tiles by 276 every turn. A level 288 kraven outpaces that when she has 8 specials on the board. That same level 345 kitty at 1 yellow is only boosting 5 tiles by 160 every turn. That level 288 champ kraven unboosted is only needing 4.5 tiles on the board to outpace kitties buffs. Any more than that and he is really outpacing her.For a player to have a 5 yellow or 5 purple cover kitty would mean they are transitioning out of 4* play. They should have easier times beating 4* teams but being beat by actual champ 5* teams.So are the problem kitties for 4* or 3* that are from level 300 to 400 high cover or no? A level 300 5* only has 3 covers. Level 400 has around 10 covers. A 10 cover 5 should absolutely be a problem in 4* play in my opinion.Edit: I copy pasted this from another discussion on kitty as I feel it's relevant here with people discussing bishop as the only viable defense vs kitty for 4* players. Most 5*s with 10 covers are weak on defense. Before Kitty, the best and most popular defensive 5* in this MMR was Jessica Jones. I still think she's the second best on defense. And there's a massive gap in difficulty between a 10 cover Jessica and a 10 cover Kitty. Jessica feels much more fair to fight against. Although you sometimes get unlucky with traps, they don't do much damage at that level.If Kitty was more comparable to other 5s with similar coverage, this wouldn't be a problem. But she is far more powerful than the 2nd best defensive 5*. As others have said, there are many players who have softcapped her. And virtually all new players are advised to set Kitty as their only bonus hero because of how much she can enhance a new roster.All that we ask is that they make lower level Kitties a bit closer in power level to the other 5s.I agree that Kraven outpaces a mid sized Kitty who only has 1 yellow cover, but the 5 yellow example is a bit misleading. When there are 8 tiles, Kitty will boost the same special tile twice in a row over half the time. Which means that some tiles will grow faster than a 288 Kraven can reduce them, and also that Kraven will waste his reduction on tiles that are already at 1 a decent % of the time. So you can't just multiply the number of special tiles by Kraven reduction and compare to Kitty boost * 5. Furthermore, because she boosts the tiles prior to attacking, her team will still deal quite a bit of damage before Kraven has a chance to reduce them.The other problem is that Kraven's active abilities are terrible and he is much slower than other characters. She also straight up counters his black ability. So besides being weak on defense, he's generally worse than just using boosted 4s or faster 4s. Not only will you be more likely to get hit if using Kraven, but you'll also have a longer match against Gritty which means you might still end up taking more damage overall even if your average damage received per turn is less than with a faster team.Finally, in a real world example: R&G creates 7 strike tiles. Usually at least one or two will get matched away in the first few turns. Which means that often times Kraven is simply outpaced by Kitty, or there are fewer than 4 special tiles in which case Kraven stops working just like Kitty. You can end up with some rather large strikes that Kraven doesn't reduce, and now he's just a weak character. The difference between Kraven and Bishop is vast, and even other characters like Sabretooth are better against Gritty. All that being said, I do agree that against a Carnage Kitty team he can be pretty helpful, especially if it's a choose 3 PvP so you can bring 2 fast characters to win quickly.
tiomono said: TranscendGod said: tiomono said: @TranscendGodMany people calling for nerfs to kitty based on her prevalence in lower tiers than 5* play will all call her either low levels or low covered. "At one yellow she is a problem."Your list of ineffective counters all seem to have very well covered kitties fighting them. If her purple is a problem for your countdown making friends she has 5 purple. If Kraven cannot keep up it's because she has multiple yellow covers. A level 345 kitty at 5 yellow can buff 5 tiles by 276 every turn. A level 288 kraven outpaces that when she has 8 specials on the board. That same level 345 kitty at 1 yellow is only boosting 5 tiles by 160 every turn. That level 288 champ kraven unboosted is only needing 4.5 tiles on the board to outpace kitties buffs. Any more than that and he is really outpacing her.For a player to have a 5 yellow or 5 purple cover kitty would mean they are transitioning out of 4* play. They should have easier times beating 4* teams but being beat by actual champ 5* teams.So are the problem kitties for 4* or 3* that are from level 300 to 400 high cover or no? A level 300 5* only has 3 covers. Level 400 has around 10 covers. A 10 cover 5 should absolutely be a problem in 4* play in my opinion.Edit: I copy pasted this from another discussion on kitty as I feel it's relevant here with people discussing bishop as the only viable defense vs kitty for 4* players. Most 5*s with 10 covers are weak on defense. Before Kitty, the best and most popular defensive 5* in this MMR was Jessica Jones. I still think she's the second best on defense. And there's a massive gap in difficulty between a 10 cover Jessica and a 10 cover Kitty. Jessica feels much more fair to fight against. Although you sometimes get unlucky with traps, they don't do much damage at that level.If Kitty was more comparable to other 5s with similar coverage, this wouldn't be a problem. But she is far more powerful than the 2nd best defensive 5*. As others have said, there are many players who have softcapped her. And virtually all new players are advised to set Kitty as their only bonus hero because of how much she can enhance a new roster.All that we ask is that they make lower level Kitties a bit closer in power level to the other 5s.I agree that Kraven outpaces a mid sized Kitty who only has 1 yellow cover, but the 5 yellow example is a bit misleading. When there are 8 tiles, Kitty will boost the same special tile twice in a row over half the time. Which means that some tiles will grow faster than a 288 Kraven can reduce them, and also that Kraven will waste his reduction on tiles that are already at 1 a decent % of the time. So you can't just multiply the number of special tiles by Kraven reduction and compare to Kitty boost * 5. Furthermore, because she boosts the tiles prior to attacking, her team will still deal quite a bit of damage before Kraven has a chance to reduce them.The other problem is that Kraven's active abilities are terrible and he is much slower than other characters. She also straight up counters his black ability. So besides being weak on defense, he's generally worse than just using boosted 4s or faster 4s. Not only will you be more likely to get hit if using Kraven, but you'll also have a longer match against Gritty which means you might still end up taking more damage overall even if your average damage received per turn is less than with a faster team.Finally, in a real world example: R&G creates 7 strike tiles. Usually at least one or two will get matched away in the first few turns. Which means that often times Kraven is simply outpaced by Kitty, or there are fewer than 4 special tiles in which case Kraven stops working just like Kitty. You can end up with some rather large strikes that Kraven doesn't reduce, and now he's just a weak character. The difference between Kraven and Bishop is vast, and even other characters like Sabretooth are better against Gritty. All that being said, I do agree that against a Carnage Kitty team he can be pretty helpful, especially if it's a choose 3 PvP so you can bring 2 fast characters to win quickly. So are the problem kitties for 4* players sitting at 10+ covers? You talk about kraven getting outpaced by 5 yellow and 5 purple kitties. Are these 300 to 400 kitties at 10+ covers or not?If yes, that's clearly a player transitioning out of 4* play and into 5*. He should be beating 4* teams totally trashing 3* teams and getting beaten or barely keeping up with 5* players. If it's not a 10 cover kitty there are many counter options for 4* and 5* players to shut her down.
OJSP said: ThaRoadWarrior said: I was definitely getting hit by 5* players when my roster only had 360 5*s, but I rarely if ever queues them up myself shortly befor champing my first 5 Yes.. that's MMR. The threshold is quite fluid, depending on many factor such as: the levels of the teams we use, what is our score, the availability of similarly leveled targets in the shard, how much points have been built in the shard, how many people are shielded, and maybe a few others I might be missing out.In general, once we break MMR, double 5* players could queue anyone once they break MMR too, regardless if we have double 5*s or not. Then, I think there's another layer of MMR with higher levelled/lvl 500+/maxed 5*s (I don't know the exact threshold for the levels yet)
ThaRoadWarrior said: I was definitely getting hit by 5* players when my roster only had 360 5*s, but I rarely if ever queues them up myself shortly befor champing my first 5
Twomp_thaDJ said: Forgive my ignorance... but are folks in 4* land out there hunting/seeking 5* teams to beat in PvP?? To my knowledge Bishop is great for defense. I’m sure he works great on offense as well but I haven’t heard folks using him to climb in PvP.. and I’m open to being wrong but from what I’m hearing, Bishop needs to be nerfed because 5* players can’t drop down and whoop on 4*... and I don’t feel bad being that I’m in 4* land and get hammered by champed Grittys.. so again if I’m wrong I will welcome examples of why..
CharlieCroker said: Twomp_thaDJ said: Forgive my ignorance... but are folks in 4* land out there hunting/seeking 5* teams to beat in PvP?? To my knowledge Bishop is great for defense. I’m sure he works great on offense as well but I haven’t heard folks using him to climb in PvP.. and I’m open to being wrong but from what I’m hearing, Bishop needs to be nerfed because 5* players can’t drop down and whoop on 4*... and I don’t feel bad being that I’m in 4* land and get hammered by champed Grittys.. so again if I’m wrong I will welcome examples of why.. Read my post back on page 4 (I think). To paraphrase, this is nothing to do with 4* players hitting up, it's about Bishop being used alongside champed 5*s and being very difficult to counter due to his passive triggering on nearly every match 3.I decided not to join PvP this season until his boost week was over cause it frustrated me so much during the week of X-men themed events. But did play a couple of Lightning Rounds this evening and a few are even running him there.On the plus side, if 5* Prof X numbers stay as advertised, a couple of match 4's off the bat will get rid of him super quickly.
BigSoftieFF said: I tinykitty HATE Bishop. That is all there is in Qs. Bishop/StrangeBishop/IcemanBishop/KittyBishop/JJ
Sm0keyJ0e said: BigSoftieFF said: I tinykitty HATE Bishop. That is all there is in Qs. Bishop/StrangeBishop/IcemanBishop/KittyBishop/JJ I'm using Bishop/DD, so add that to the list!