Nerf Bishop

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  • TranscendGod
    TranscendGod Posts: 53 Match Maker
    KGB said:
    TranscendGod said:

    The new character, Juggernaut, is going to be absolutely insane with Gritty in PvPs where you can choose 3 characters. TinyGritty Bishop can be reasonably countered by Bishop, Peggy, Deadpool (and a few variants). It generally costs one health pack and is a nice quick win. JuggerGritty is going to be far more devastating. Your entire team is almost guaranteed to get hit by massive AOEs by the second turn. Sure, bishop and deadpool will return the favor and the fight will end quickly. But you're also going to be using far more health packs (perhaps 3 per match instead of 1), and if JuggerGritty gets a good cascade you just lose. It'll be a few months before many of the active 4* players champ Juggernaut; many of us are already saving heroics for him. If not for Kitty, AOE counters like Quake could work decently. But Kitty enables low level characters to do damage like 550+ characters. That's why she's OP (at sub champ levels).
    Nope. On offense, Kitty will tank at least 3 if not 4 of 7 colors so Juggs AOE won't trigger as often as if you just ran Juggs/Grocket/Gamora where it will trigger 100% of matches.

    On defense the AI will never trigger it since you'll target Kitty first, Grocket 2nd and Juggs 3rd. His AOE won't proc till you put him in front by which time you'll have removed the strikes or you'll be long dead.

    Also if you bring your own Bishop to such fights you'll have enough Blue on turn 2 / 3 to stun Juggs (or Kitty).

    So if you are running Juggs with Kitty you'll will 100% switch to Bishop on your last fight for Gritty/Bishop over Gritty/Juggs.

    KGB
    It's true that Kitty will tend to tank purple, yellow, and team tiles (possibly red depending on juggernaut's level). But juggernaut will tank the rest (since he increases match damage by 225%), and there's an excellent chance of him triggering some massive AOEs with Kitty enhanced strikes. I'm pretty confident that you're wrong about Juggernaut/R&G/Gamora being a more difficult team to fight (although that team will also be quite painful). Kitty enhanced strikes become so large so quickly that even with AOE's being triggered on ~50% of matches it will end up being more damage.

    On defense, you're simply wrong. His AOE will proc whenever the AI makes a green/blue/black (and possibly red) match. And of course it will trigger on every match if you stun Kitty.

    If you bring bishop, you'll have enough blue on turn 2 if they get a 2+ match cascade or an AOE (excluding a lucky cascade on your first turn, or match 5 on the second). A 2 match cascade has a good chance of at least one massive AOE, and a decent chance of two. But then things get worse. You can stun juggernaut or Kitty with that blue (unless they got an even larger cascade in which case you might just be dead). Stun Kitty and Juggernaut will now make massive AOEs with every match. Stun Juggernaut and now Kitty will get to continue enhancing strike tiles (for possibly 2 more turns, at which point an unboosted Bishop is probably dead). Against Juggernaut/Gamora/R&G, you just have to stun juggernaut to stop most of the damage.
  • TranscendGod
    TranscendGod Posts: 53 Match Maker
    tiomono said:
    TranscendGod said:
    I'd also like to expand on Kitty Carnage, because most 5* players don't encounter this team (since it obviously works much less well in their meta).

    Kitty Carnage is far worse than Gritty in the 4* meta, and has much less effective counters. You are nearly guaranteed to take massive amounts of damage. With a reasonable chance of straight up losing. In a normal PvP with featured characters that aren't particularly useful, this team is an auto skip. Here's why:

    Unlike Gritty, this team does not automatically trigger bishop with matches (remember, we're talking about tinykitties that are mostly below level 400). So he doesn't do anything until Kitty starts boosting attack tiles to incredible amounts. At which point, his passive will often just trigger once per turn (instead of per match). By the time you can stun Kitty, you're looking at massive attack tiles scattered across the board that will devastate your team. Bishop dies quickly, Kitty becomes unstunned, and not only does she resume her insane tile pumping but her purple removes your attack tiles until dealing large amounts of damage.

    The new character, Juggernaut, is going to be absolutely insane with Gritty in PvPs where you can choose 3 characters. TinyGritty Bishop can be reasonably countered by Bishop, Peggy, Deadpool (and a few variants). It generally costs one health pack and is a nice quick win. JuggerGritty is going to be far more devastating. Your entire team is almost guaranteed to get hit by massive AOEs by the second turn. Sure, bishop and deadpool will return the favor and the fight will end quickly. But you're also going to be using far more health packs (perhaps 3 per match instead of 1), and if JuggerGritty gets a good cascade you just lose. It'll be a few months before many of the active 4* players champ Juggernaut; many of us are already saving heroics for him. If not for Kitty, AOE counters like Quake could work decently. But Kitty enables low level characters to do damage like 550+ characters. That's why she's OP (at sub champ levels).
    I would think medusa would love enemy teams with carnage. Free healing and extra ap nearly every turn both yours and theirs.

    This is about bishop though. Not kitty or gritty or juggity unless they include bishop.
    Medusa dies pretty horribly to carnage kitty. The extra AP is nice, but the healing is pitiful compared to the massive damage you'll take from giant attack tiles.

    This thread is about whether or not Bishop should be nerfed in MPQ. Discussion about TinyKitty is relevant because he is the most effective counter for 4* players (and still arguably insufficient). And there's a broader discussion about which character is most important to change. TinyKitties are a bigger problem for a much larger % of the playerbase. It's true that many of the 5* players spend much more on average, so weighting it by spending might be somewhat more even. Nonetheless, if they are unwilling to release effective anti-bishop counters, he should only be nerfed if TinyKitty is also nerfed. Unless the nerf is well designed and only makes him weaker against champ 5s (perhaps by raising his damage threshold by a reasonable amount).
  • justsing
    justsing Posts: 510 Critical Contributor
    TranscendGod said:

    This thread is about whether or not Bishop should be nerfed in MPQ. Discussion about TinyKitty is relevant because he is the most effective counter for 4* players (and still arguably insufficient). And there's a broader discussion about which character is most important to change. TinyKitties are a bigger problem for a much larger % of the playerbase. It's true that many of the 5* players spend much more on average, so weighting it by spending might be somewhat more even. Nonetheless, if they are unwilling to release effective anti-bishop counters, he should only be nerfed if TinyKitty is also nerfed. Unless the nerf is well designed and only makes him weaker against champ 5s (perhaps by raising his damage threshold by a reasonable amount).
    I would be perfectly happy if Bishop were tweaked such that he’s still useful on offense for 4* players against Kitty teams while not being crazy OP against 5* match damage on defense. That’s still a nerf though. Any kind of adjustment to that effect, however small, would be a nerf. 

    While some of us may be sick of seeing him and wouldn’t care if he were nerfed to the ground, we can accept that others don’t feel the same, especially given that he has a lot of value for 4* rosters in dealing with Kitty teams. That’s fine. But he still needs some kind of adjustment (nerf). The status quo is just not fun. 

    As for counters, I think it’s ridiculous to need a 5* counter to a 4* character, yet a 4* counter would likely be OP. So I would rather they tweak Bishop instead of making a counter.
  • tiomono
    tiomono Posts: 1,654 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited August 2019
    @TranscendGod

    Many people calling for nerfs to kitty based on her prevalence in lower tiers than 5* play will all call her either low levels or low covered. "At one yellow she is a problem."

    Your list of ineffective counters all seem to have very well covered kitties fighting  them. If her purple is a problem for your countdown making friends she has 5 purple. If Kraven cannot keep up it's because she has multiple yellow covers. A level 345 kitty at 5 yellow can buff 5 tiles by 276 every turn. A level 288 kraven outpaces that when she has 8 specials on the board. That same level 345 kitty at 1 yellow is only boosting 5 tiles by 160 every turn. That level 288 champ kraven unboosted is only needing 4.5 tiles on the board to outpace kitties buffs. Any more than that and he is really outpacing her.

    For a player to have a 5 yellow or 5 purple cover kitty would mean they are transitioning out of 4* play. They should have easier times beating 4* teams but being beat by actual champ 5* teams.

    So are the problem kitties for 4* or 3* that are from level 300 to 400 high cover or no? A level 300 5* only has 3 covers. Level 400 has around 10 covers. A 10 cover 5 should absolutely be a problem in 4* play in my opinion.

    Edit: I copy pasted this from another discussion on kitty as I feel it's relevant here with people discussing bishop as the only viable defense vs kitty for 4* players.
  • tiomono
    tiomono Posts: 1,654 Chairperson of the Boards
    TranscendGod said:
    I'd also like to expand on Kitty Carnage, because most 5* players don't encounter this team (since it obviously works much less well in their meta).

    Kitty Carnage is far worse than Gritty in the 4* meta, and has much less effective counters. You are nearly guaranteed to take massive amounts of damage. With a reasonable chance of straight up losing. In a normal PvP with featured characters that aren't particularly useful, this team is an auto skip. Here's why:

    Unlike Gritty, this team does not automatically trigger bishop with matches (remember, we're talking about tinykitties that are mostly below level 400). So he doesn't do anything until Kitty starts boosting attack tiles to incredible amounts. At which point, his passive will often just trigger once per turn (instead of per match). By the time you can stun Kitty, you're looking at massive attack tiles scattered across the board that will devastate your team. Bishop dies quickly, Kitty becomes unstunned, and not only does she resume her insane tile pumping but her purple removes your attack tiles until dealing large amounts of damage.

    The new character, Juggernaut, is going to be absolutely insane with Gritty in PvPs where you can choose 3 characters. TinyGritty Bishop can be reasonably countered by Bishop, Peggy, Deadpool (and a few variants). It generally costs one health pack and is a nice quick win. JuggerGritty is going to be far more devastating. Your entire team is almost guaranteed to get hit by massive AOEs by the second turn. Sure, bishop and deadpool will return the favor and the fight will end quickly. But you're also going to be using far more health packs (perhaps 3 per match instead of 1), and if JuggerGritty gets a good cascade you just lose. It'll be a few months before many of the active 4* players champ Juggernaut; many of us are already saving heroics for him. If not for Kitty, AOE counters like Quake could work decently. But Kitty enables low level characters to do damage like 550+ characters. That's why she's OP (at sub champ levels).
    A level 345 kitty will proc bishop on both yellow and purple matches. If they have carnage pumping out attacks every turn its gonna be a bit before her purple hits you. You need a 4 or 5 purple kitty for it to be 1 turn. And even with that carnage is giving you 3 tiles every turn if he has fewer than 10 on the board. If he has 10 on the board a kraven around level 290 will outpace that kitty hardcore. He only needs 6 enemy specials on the board at those levels to outpace the  kitty's you describe.
  • TranscendGod
    TranscendGod Posts: 53 Match Maker
    tiomono said:
    @TranscendGod

    Many people calling for nerfs to kitty based on her prevalence in lower tiers than 5* play will all call her either low levels or low covered. "At one yellow she is a problem."

    Your list of ineffective counters all seem to have very well covered kitties fighting  them. If her purple is a problem for your countdown making friends she has 5 purple. If Kraven cannot keep up it's because she has multiple yellow covers. A level 345 kitty at 5 yellow can buff 5 tiles by 276 every turn. A level 288 kraven outpaces that when she has 8 specials on the board. That same level 345 kitty at 1 yellow is only boosting 5 tiles by 160 every turn. That level 288 champ kraven unboosted is only needing 4.5 tiles on the board to outpace kitties buffs. Any more than that and he is really outpacing her.

    For a player to have a 5 yellow or 5 purple cover kitty would mean they are transitioning out of 4* play. They should have easier times beating 4* teams but being beat by actual champ 5* teams.

    So are the problem kitties for 4* or 3* that are from level 300 to 400 high cover or no? A level 300 5* only has 3 covers. Level 400 has around 10 covers. A 10 cover 5 should absolutely be a problem in 4* play in my opinion.

    Edit: I copy pasted this from another discussion on kitty as I feel it's relevant here with people discussing bishop as the only viable defense vs kitty for 4* players.

    Most 5*s with 10 covers are weak on defense. Before Kitty, the best and most popular defensive 5* in this MMR was Jessica Jones. I still think she's the second best on defense. And there's a massive gap in difficulty between a 10 cover Jessica and a 10 cover Kitty. Jessica feels much more fair to fight against. Although you sometimes get unlucky with traps, they don't do much damage at that level.

    If Kitty was more comparable to other 5s with similar coverage, this wouldn't be a problem. But she is far more powerful than the 2nd best defensive 5*. As others have said, there are many players who have softcapped her. And virtually all new players are advised to set Kitty as their only bonus hero because of how much she can enhance a new roster.

    All that we ask is that they make lower level Kitties a bit closer in power level to the other 5s.

    I agree that Kraven outpaces a mid sized Kitty who only has 1 yellow cover, but the 5 yellow example is a bit misleading. When there are 8 tiles, Kitty will boost the same special tile twice in a row over half the time. Which means that some tiles will grow faster than a 288 Kraven can reduce them, and also that Kraven will waste his reduction on tiles that are already at 1 a decent % of the time. So you can't just multiply the number of special tiles by Kraven reduction and compare to Kitty boost * 5. Furthermore, because she boosts the tiles prior to attacking, her team will still deal quite a bit of damage before Kraven has a chance to reduce them.

    The other problem is that Kraven's active abilities are terrible and he is much slower than other characters. She also straight up counters his black ability. So besides being weak on defense, he's generally worse than just using boosted 4s or faster 4s. Not only will you be more likely to get hit if using Kraven, but you'll also have a longer match against Gritty which means you might still end up taking more damage overall even if your average damage received per turn is less than with a faster team.

    Finally, in a real world example: R&G creates 7 strike tiles. Usually at least one or two will get matched away in the first few turns. Which means that often times Kraven is simply outpaced by Kitty, or there are fewer than 4 special tiles in which case Kraven stops working just like Kitty. You can end up with some rather large strikes that Kraven doesn't reduce, and now he's just a weak character. The difference between Kraven and Bishop is vast, and even other characters like Sabretooth are better against Gritty. All that being said, I do agree that against a Carnage Kitty team he can be pretty helpful, especially if it's a choose 3 PvP so you can bring 2 fast characters to win quickly.


  • TranscendGod
    TranscendGod Posts: 53 Match Maker
    justsing said:
    TranscendGod said:

    This thread is about whether or not Bishop should be nerfed in MPQ. Discussion about TinyKitty is relevant because he is the most effective counter for 4* players (and still arguably insufficient). And there's a broader discussion about which character is most important to change. TinyKitties are a bigger problem for a much larger % of the playerbase. It's true that many of the 5* players spend much more on average, so weighting it by spending might be somewhat more even. Nonetheless, if they are unwilling to release effective anti-bishop counters, he should only be nerfed if TinyKitty is also nerfed. Unless the nerf is well designed and only makes him weaker against champ 5s (perhaps by raising his damage threshold by a reasonable amount).
    I would be perfectly happy if Bishop were tweaked such that he’s still useful on offense for 4* players against Kitty teams while not being crazy OP against 5* match damage on defense. That’s still a nerf though. Any kind of adjustment to that effect, however small, would be a nerf. 

    While some of us may be sick of seeing him and wouldn’t care if he were nerfed to the ground, we can accept that others don’t feel the same, especially given that he has a lot of value for 4* rosters in dealing with Kitty teams. That’s fine. But he still needs some kind of adjustment (nerf). The status quo is just not fun. 

    As for counters, I think it’s ridiculous to need a 5* counter to a 4* character, yet a 4* counter would likely be OP. So I would rather they tweak Bishop instead of making a counter.
    I agree. As I said at the end of the quote, if the nerf is well designed I don't have a problem with it. And I agree that it's a bit ridiculous to have 5* counters to a 4* character. I just thought it could make for an interesting meta with Anti-Bishop Teams > Bishop teams > Top Tier Passive Teams > Anti-Bishop Teams. People have asked for more variety in the 5* meta for a very long time and it's a lot easier to introduce extreme counters than to actually balance the game.
  • tiomono
    tiomono Posts: 1,654 Chairperson of the Boards
    TranscendGod said:
    tiomono said:
    @TranscendGod

    Many people calling for nerfs to kitty based on her prevalence in lower tiers than 5* play will all call her either low levels or low covered. "At one yellow she is a problem."

    Your list of ineffective counters all seem to have very well covered kitties fighting  them. If her purple is a problem for your countdown making friends she has 5 purple. If Kraven cannot keep up it's because she has multiple yellow covers. A level 345 kitty at 5 yellow can buff 5 tiles by 276 every turn. A level 288 kraven outpaces that when she has 8 specials on the board. That same level 345 kitty at 1 yellow is only boosting 5 tiles by 160 every turn. That level 288 champ kraven unboosted is only needing 4.5 tiles on the board to outpace kitties buffs. Any more than that and he is really outpacing her.

    For a player to have a 5 yellow or 5 purple cover kitty would mean they are transitioning out of 4* play. They should have easier times beating 4* teams but being beat by actual champ 5* teams.

    So are the problem kitties for 4* or 3* that are from level 300 to 400 high cover or no? A level 300 5* only has 3 covers. Level 400 has around 10 covers. A 10 cover 5 should absolutely be a problem in 4* play in my opinion.

    Edit: I copy pasted this from another discussion on kitty as I feel it's relevant here with people discussing bishop as the only viable defense vs kitty for 4* players.

    Most 5*s with 10 covers are weak on defense. Before Kitty, the best and most popular defensive 5* in this MMR was Jessica Jones. I still think she's the second best on defense. And there's a massive gap in difficulty between a 10 cover Jessica and a 10 cover Kitty. Jessica feels much more fair to fight against. Although you sometimes get unlucky with traps, they don't do much damage at that level.

    If Kitty was more comparable to other 5s with similar coverage, this wouldn't be a problem. But she is far more powerful than the 2nd best defensive 5*. As others have said, there are many players who have softcapped her. And virtually all new players are advised to set Kitty as their only bonus hero because of how much she can enhance a new roster.

    All that we ask is that they make lower level Kitties a bit closer in power level to the other 5s.

    I agree that Kraven outpaces a mid sized Kitty who only has 1 yellow cover, but the 5 yellow example is a bit misleading. When there are 8 tiles, Kitty will boost the same special tile twice in a row over half the time. Which means that some tiles will grow faster than a 288 Kraven can reduce them, and also that Kraven will waste his reduction on tiles that are already at 1 a decent % of the time. So you can't just multiply the number of special tiles by Kraven reduction and compare to Kitty boost * 5. Furthermore, because she boosts the tiles prior to attacking, her team will still deal quite a bit of damage before Kraven has a chance to reduce them.

    The other problem is that Kraven's active abilities are terrible and he is much slower than other characters. She also straight up counters his black ability. So besides being weak on defense, he's generally worse than just using boosted 4s or faster 4s. Not only will you be more likely to get hit if using Kraven, but you'll also have a longer match against Gritty which means you might still end up taking more damage overall even if your average damage received per turn is less than with a faster team.

    Finally, in a real world example: R&G creates 7 strike tiles. Usually at least one or two will get matched away in the first few turns. Which means that often times Kraven is simply outpaced by Kitty, or there are fewer than 4 special tiles in which case Kraven stops working just like Kitty. You can end up with some rather large strikes that Kraven doesn't reduce, and now he's just a weak character. The difference between Kraven and Bishop is vast, and even other characters like Sabretooth are better against Gritty. All that being said, I do agree that against a Carnage Kitty team he can be pretty helpful, especially if it's a choose 3 PvP so you can bring 2 fast characters to win quickly.


    So are the problem kitties for 4* players sitting at 10+ covers? You talk about kraven getting outpaced by 5 yellow and 5 purple kitties. Are these 300 to 400 kitties at 10+ covers or not?

    If yes, that's clearly a player transitioning out of 4* play and into 5*. He should be beating 4* teams totally trashing 3* teams and getting beaten or barely keeping up with 5* players. 

    If it's not a 10 cover kitty there are many counter options for 4* and 5* players to shut her down.
  • TranscendGod
    TranscendGod Posts: 53 Match Maker
    tiomono said:
    TranscendGod said:
    tiomono said:
    @TranscendGod

    Many people calling for nerfs to kitty based on her prevalence in lower tiers than 5* play will all call her either low levels or low covered. "At one yellow she is a problem."

    Your list of ineffective counters all seem to have very well covered kitties fighting  them. If her purple is a problem for your countdown making friends she has 5 purple. If Kraven cannot keep up it's because she has multiple yellow covers. A level 345 kitty at 5 yellow can buff 5 tiles by 276 every turn. A level 288 kraven outpaces that when she has 8 specials on the board. That same level 345 kitty at 1 yellow is only boosting 5 tiles by 160 every turn. That level 288 champ kraven unboosted is only needing 4.5 tiles on the board to outpace kitties buffs. Any more than that and he is really outpacing her.

    For a player to have a 5 yellow or 5 purple cover kitty would mean they are transitioning out of 4* play. They should have easier times beating 4* teams but being beat by actual champ 5* teams.

    So are the problem kitties for 4* or 3* that are from level 300 to 400 high cover or no? A level 300 5* only has 3 covers. Level 400 has around 10 covers. A 10 cover 5 should absolutely be a problem in 4* play in my opinion.

    Edit: I copy pasted this from another discussion on kitty as I feel it's relevant here with people discussing bishop as the only viable defense vs kitty for 4* players.

    Most 5*s with 10 covers are weak on defense. Before Kitty, the best and most popular defensive 5* in this MMR was Jessica Jones. I still think she's the second best on defense. And there's a massive gap in difficulty between a 10 cover Jessica and a 10 cover Kitty. Jessica feels much more fair to fight against. Although you sometimes get unlucky with traps, they don't do much damage at that level.

    If Kitty was more comparable to other 5s with similar coverage, this wouldn't be a problem. But she is far more powerful than the 2nd best defensive 5*. As others have said, there are many players who have softcapped her. And virtually all new players are advised to set Kitty as their only bonus hero because of how much she can enhance a new roster.

    All that we ask is that they make lower level Kitties a bit closer in power level to the other 5s.

    I agree that Kraven outpaces a mid sized Kitty who only has 1 yellow cover, but the 5 yellow example is a bit misleading. When there are 8 tiles, Kitty will boost the same special tile twice in a row over half the time. Which means that some tiles will grow faster than a 288 Kraven can reduce them, and also that Kraven will waste his reduction on tiles that are already at 1 a decent % of the time. So you can't just multiply the number of special tiles by Kraven reduction and compare to Kitty boost * 5. Furthermore, because she boosts the tiles prior to attacking, her team will still deal quite a bit of damage before Kraven has a chance to reduce them.

    The other problem is that Kraven's active abilities are terrible and he is much slower than other characters. She also straight up counters his black ability. So besides being weak on defense, he's generally worse than just using boosted 4s or faster 4s. Not only will you be more likely to get hit if using Kraven, but you'll also have a longer match against Gritty which means you might still end up taking more damage overall even if your average damage received per turn is less than with a faster team.

    Finally, in a real world example: R&G creates 7 strike tiles. Usually at least one or two will get matched away in the first few turns. Which means that often times Kraven is simply outpaced by Kitty, or there are fewer than 4 special tiles in which case Kraven stops working just like Kitty. You can end up with some rather large strikes that Kraven doesn't reduce, and now he's just a weak character. The difference between Kraven and Bishop is vast, and even other characters like Sabretooth are better against Gritty. All that being said, I do agree that against a Carnage Kitty team he can be pretty helpful, especially if it's a choose 3 PvP so you can bring 2 fast characters to win quickly.


    So are the problem kitties for 4* players sitting at 10+ covers? You talk about kraven getting outpaced by 5 yellow and 5 purple kitties. Are these 300 to 400 kitties at 10+ covers or not?

    If yes, that's clearly a player transitioning out of 4* play and into 5*. He should be beating 4* teams totally trashing 3* teams and getting beaten or barely keeping up with 5* players. 

    If it's not a 10 cover kitty there are many counter options for 4* and 5* players to shut her down.
    Yes, there are many 4* players with 10+ Kitty covers. And Kitties with lower coverage are still usually worth skipping compared to other teams. No other level 360 5* with 10 covers (or even optimal coverage) is nearly as strong as Kitty on defense. That's the problem.

    Having level 360 5* characters is 4* MMR not 5*. I'm fairly certain that you don't even become visible to 5* players (I.E. Players with championed 5s) until you pass the magic MMR threshold in PvP (usually around 900-1000). You aren't transitioning out of 4* play and into 5* play until you level a character quite a bit higher.
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,455 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited August 2019
    I was definitely getting hit by 5* players when my roster only had 360 5*s, but I rarely if ever queued them up myself shortly before champing my first 5
  • A_Wise_Man
    A_Wise_Man Posts: 153 Tile Toppler
    OJSP said:
    ThaRoadWarrior said:
    I was definitely getting hit by 5* players when my roster only had 360 5*s, but I rarely if ever queues them up myself shortly befor champing my first 5
    Yes.. that's MMR. The threshold is quite fluid, depending on many factor such as: the levels of the teams we use, what is our score, the availability of similarly leveled targets in the shard, how much points have been built in the shard, how many people are shielded, and maybe a few others I might be missing out.

    In general, once we break MMR, double 5* players could queue anyone once they break MMR too, regardless if we have double 5*s or not. Then, I think there's another layer of MMR with higher levelled/lvl 500+/maxed 5*s (I don't know the exact threshold for the levels yet)
    Its basically a range, higher or lower than your own roster strength.  The game will let you punch slightly down and slightly up, then further down before it lets you punch further up, so if you have 450s you'll see the 4 star guys before you see the 550 guys, but maybe see the 500 guys at the same time as the 4s.
  • DyingLegend
    DyingLegend Posts: 1,208 Chairperson of the Boards
    I'm generally against nerfs, but boosted bishops makes me avoid pvp all together, and i have bishop as well. 

    He is just very annoying and gains way too much ap way to quickly and unlike other characters when they are boosted, it takes more damage to trigger there passives ( Valk, xfdp etc) bishop takes even a slight bit of damage and he is generating blue and stunning constantly. 
  • Twomp_thaDJ
    Twomp_thaDJ Posts: 237 Tile Toppler
    Forgive my ignorance... but are folks in 4* land out there hunting/seeking 5* teams to beat in PvP?? To my knowledge Bishop is great for defense. I’m sure he works great on offense as well but I haven’t heard folks using him to climb in PvP.. and I’m open to being wrong but from what I’m hearing, Bishop needs to be nerfed because 5* players can’t drop down and whoop on 4*... and I don’t feel bad being that I’m in 4* land and get hammered by champed Grittys.. so again if I’m wrong I will welcome examples of why..
  • Tony_Foot
    Tony_Foot Posts: 1,814 Chairperson of the Boards
    Twomp_thaDJ said:
    Forgive my ignorance... but are folks in 4* land out there hunting/seeking 5* teams to beat in PvP?? To my knowledge Bishop is great for defense. I’m sure he works great on offense as well but I haven’t heard folks using him to climb in PvP.. and I’m open to being wrong but from what I’m hearing, Bishop needs to be nerfed because 5* players can’t drop down and whoop on 4*... and I don’t feel bad being that I’m in 4* land and get hammered by champed Grittys.. so again if I’m wrong I will welcome examples of why..
    I don’t see 4* rosters to beat on every unless it’s a person with a great 5* roster setting bait. Also I don’t get hit by 4* rosters if I left bishop out. It wouldn’t bother me if they did, I’d hit them back when the points were worth it and be a very quick win. Hell I wish more 4* rosters did do it.
  • CharlieCroker
    CharlieCroker Posts: 254 Mover and Shaker
    Twomp_thaDJ said:
    Forgive my ignorance... but are folks in 4* land out there hunting/seeking 5* teams to beat in PvP?? To my knowledge Bishop is great for defense. I’m sure he works great on offense as well but I haven’t heard folks using him to climb in PvP.. and I’m open to being wrong but from what I’m hearing, Bishop needs to be nerfed because 5* players can’t drop down and whoop on 4*... and I don’t feel bad being that I’m in 4* land and get hammered by champed Grittys.. so again if I’m wrong I will welcome examples of why..
    Read my post back on page 4 (I think).  To paraphrase, this is nothing to do with 4* players hitting up, it's about Bishop being used alongside champed 5*s and being very difficult to counter due to his passive triggering on nearly every match 3.

    I decided not to join PvP this season until his boost week was over cause it frustrated me so much during the week of X-men themed events.  But did play a couple of Lightning Rounds this evening and a few are even running him there.

    On the plus side, if 5* Prof X numbers stay as advertised, a couple of match 4's off the bat will get rid of him super quickly.
  • A_Wise_Man
    A_Wise_Man Posts: 153 Tile Toppler
    CharlieCroker said:
    Twomp_thaDJ said:
    Forgive my ignorance... but are folks in 4* land out there hunting/seeking 5* teams to beat in PvP?? To my knowledge Bishop is great for defense. I’m sure he works great on offense as well but I haven’t heard folks using him to climb in PvP.. and I’m open to being wrong but from what I’m hearing, Bishop needs to be nerfed because 5* players can’t drop down and whoop on 4*... and I don’t feel bad being that I’m in 4* land and get hammered by champed Grittys.. so again if I’m wrong I will welcome examples of why..
    Read my post back on page 4 (I think).  To paraphrase, this is nothing to do with 4* players hitting up, it's about Bishop being used alongside champed 5*s and being very difficult to counter due to his passive triggering on nearly every match 3.

    I decided not to join PvP this season until his boost week was over cause it frustrated me so much during the week of X-men themed events.  But did play a couple of Lightning Rounds this evening and a few are even running him there.

    On the plus side, if 5* Prof X numbers stay as advertised, a couple of match 4's off the bat will get rid of him super quickly.
    Difficult to counter is one thing.  This is not that.  There isnt any counter other than dropping down a tier on your own or not matching 3 at all.  I'm not sure how you play this game without matching 3 (or 4 or 5).  Other than firing OML black or squirrel girl yellow or something, but that's literally doing nothing at all.  I understand his design within the 4 star tier, but his abilities combined make him impossible to reliably play against in the 5 star tier.  Something in there needs a major tweak.  It's not about being upset you cant punch down.  Its teams I'm finding before mmr is "broken".  Though to be fair not being able to hit a lower rarity team with a higher rarity team isnt something that should exist, it makes no sense.
  • BigSoftieFF
    BigSoftieFF Posts: 454 Mover and Shaker
    I **** HATE Bishop. That is all there is in Qs. 

    Bishop/Strange
    Bishop/Iceman
    Bishop/Kitty
    Bishop/JJ
  • Sm0keyJ0e
    Sm0keyJ0e Posts: 730 Critical Contributor
    BigSoftieFF said:
    I tinykitty HATE Bishop. That is all there is in Qs. 

    Bishop/Strange
    Bishop/Iceman
    Bishop/Kitty
    Bishop/JJ

    I'm using Bishop/DD, so add that to the list!
  • MegaBee
    MegaBee Posts: 1,044 Chairperson of the Boards
    Sm0keyJ0e said:
    BigSoftieFF said:
    I tinykitty HATE Bishop. That is all there is in Qs. 

    Bishop/Strange
    Bishop/Iceman
    Bishop/Kitty
    Bishop/JJ

    I'm using Bishop/DD, so add that to the list!
    Bishop/Okoye

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