Phaserhawk wrote: I had made numerous posts months ago that the biggest issue for spidey was that his skills were tied to web tile creation. Which is why blue cost was so low as to actually create webtiles. This was going to be the issue with Spidey and D3 was warned by the community that just a straight up AP Nerf was going to kill him since it massively reduces his ability to create web-tiles and thus kills yellow and purple at the same time. What do they do? They nerf blue by increasing AP nerf the other skills but don't take into account that you essentially just increased the cost of creating a webtile by 250%. Now they did fix purple which was nice, but the only way Spidey can become viable is if they A.) reduce some of the webtile requirement off of blue B.) allow another way to creat a web tile C.) allow blue to create 2 web tiles D.) lower blue AP cost to 4 Of these four choices I do not see B or D happening. they have set their standard of nothing costing below 5, and allowing another webtile creation would be too much programing. That leaves us with choices A or C. both are functionally the same however A. is probably the most balanced approach as creating 2 webtiles per blue usage drastically increases the power levels of yellow and purple at the same time. So here is what the simplest to fix and most blanced version of blue should beAll Tied Up - Blue 5 AP Spider-Man slings webs, stunning the enemy for 1 turn. He then adds a Yellow Web tile to the board. Level Upgrades Level 2: +1 turn of stun if 2 Web tiles exist Level 3: +1 turn of stun if 1 Web tiles exist Level 4: +1 turn of stun if 0 Web tile exists Level 5: +1 or +2 turns of stun when 0 or 1 Web tiles exist. althougth I actually think this is betterAll Tied Up - Blue 5 AP Spider-Man slings webs, stunning the enemy for 1 turn. He then adds 2 Yellow Web tiles to the board. Level Upgrades Level 2: +1 turn of stun if 3 Web tiles exist Level 3: +1 turn of stun if 2 Web tiles exist Level 4: +1 turn of stun if 1 Web tile exists Level 5: +1 or +2 turns of stun when 1 or 2 Web tiles exist. One can only hope
Polares wrote: Phaserhawk wrote: I had made numerous posts months ago that the biggest issue for spidey was that his skills were tied to web tile creation. Which is why blue cost was so low as to actually create webtiles. This was going to be the issue with Spidey and D3 was warned by the community that just a straight up AP Nerf was going to kill him since it massively reduces his ability to create web-tiles and thus kills yellow and purple at the same time. What do they do? They nerf blue by increasing AP nerf the other skills but don't take into account that you essentially just increased the cost of creating a webtile by 250%. Now they did fix purple which was nice, but the only way Spidey can become viable is if they A.) reduce some of the webtile requirement off of blue B.) allow another way to creat a web tile C.) allow blue to create 2 web tiles D.) lower blue AP cost to 4 Of these four choices I do not see B or D happening. they have set their standard of nothing costing below 5, and allowing another webtile creation would be too much programing. That leaves us with choices A or C. both are functionally the same however A. is probably the most balanced approach as creating 2 webtiles per blue usage drastically increases the power levels of yellow and purple at the same time. So here is what the simplest to fix and most blanced version of blue should beAll Tied Up - Blue 5 AP Spider-Man slings webs, stunning the enemy for 1 turn. He then adds a Yellow Web tile to the board. Level Upgrades Level 2: +1 turn of stun if 2 Web tiles exist Level 3: +1 turn of stun if 1 Web tiles exist Level 4: +1 turn of stun if 0 Web tile exists Level 5: +1 or +2 turns of stun when 0 or 1 Web tiles exist. althougth I actually think this is betterAll Tied Up - Blue 5 AP Spider-Man slings webs, stunning the enemy for 1 turn. He then adds 2 Yellow Web tiles to the board. Level Upgrades Level 2: +1 turn of stun if 3 Web tiles exist Level 3: +1 turn of stun if 2 Web tiles exist Level 4: +1 turn of stun if 1 Web tile exists Level 5: +1 or +2 turns of stun when 1 or 2 Web tiles exist. One can only hope I think D is the best option to make Spiderman good. C would make a 5/3/5 spidey a good enough build to be in any roster (respec mandatory to everyone ). But I guess that D3 is going to do nothing and leave Spidey as it is right now and it is a pitty because Spidey should be a very good 3*, being one if no the most popular Marvel character.
Phaserhawk wrote: The AP cost ideas are great but D3 is removing all skills that cost less than 5AP, so that is not gonna happening. Which is why I suggested reducing the webtile requrirements on his blue or allowing him to create 2 web tiles on casting blue.
akboyce wrote: Excellent response bonfire01. While I agree with some of your points I think you may have misunderstood my intent. I am definitely not arguing that Spidey is "good." I am saying that with the changes made he still has a role. As you pointed out though, the value of that role is greatly diminished by the current set up of the game itself. However these problems already plagued Spider Man even before the nerfs, his blue was just so broken it could be ignored. PVE: You are not allowed to heal in PVE right now because you will be punished in the long run for it. Pre nerf spidey suffered from this as well but his stun was strong enough to ignore the effect. Current Spider Man COULD be used in PVE for sustained grinding if sustained grinding was not punished by scaling. This is more a problem with the scaling system than Spider Man's ability to heal and mitigate damage. PVP: As you say Spider Man suffers in PVP due to a slow kill speed and the fact ending with high health is not as rewarding as quick kills. However this was mostly true for pre nerf Spidey too. He was rarely used at the top levels of PVP due to a lack of speed and how badly getting attacked could ruin a run. Maybe in a world where while fighting to win 20 points you could not lose 150 there would be some value in ending fights with full HP but that is not the world of MPQ right now. But this was a problem for Spider Man before the nerfs not one that is here because of the nerfs. Spider Man lost his stun but is still good at healing and damage mitigation. Unfortunately those skills are not valuable anywhere but the first 500 points of a PVP climb. However this is MOSTLY a result of the way the game is structured and not a result of the recent changes. New Spider Man has a role... it is just not one that has much value in the current environment. I stand by the fact he not Bag Man. Bag Man is bad at the things he is good at. Spider Man is good at making protect tiles and healing... those skills just lack value with how things are structured. I will concede that his blue and his stunning are probably Bag-Maned though. The problem with Spider Man is more a factor of his environment rather than these nerfs. Bag Man is Bag Man in any environment. As for Spider Man and Magneto I think you are under valuing the freeness of the protect tiles. With OBW you have to use the purple to mitigate the damage. With Spider Man and Magneto the purple provides protection then flat out kills one enemy. Magneto really benefits from someone who can collect purple for him. Spider Man can fill that roll while minimizing the damage you take. Now I will accept that since the game does not put much value on damage mitigation and since Magneto loves strike tiles that Daken is probably the superior partner for him. BUT if you are going to use Spider Man (because you like him, need to heal, or he is required for an event) Magneto makes an excellent dance partner. TL;DR The nerfs are not what is hurting Spider Man the most. Its the high speed PVP and scaling PVE. I still think if you are going to use Spidey, Mags is a good partner.