*** Spider-Man (Classic) ***

Unknown

locked wrote:

Well, Magneto nerf would incidentally nerf Patch slightly.

soenottelling, you are forgetting that enemy Spideys will still 2AP dominate you

they will still be able to retaliate like normal if they don't update, but while fighting him he will still suck worse making an even faster win. Yea, the problem is the other ppl.on offense mostly, so I need go find a way to get OTHERS to update lol. Where is kanye when you need him. Update or die muthakitty!

Tannen

Looks... okay.

Speaking as someone who has abused spidey a lot and have subsequently left him off my team for the last month or so, this looks like less of a nerf than I feared, but slightly more of one than I was hoping for. He still looks usable as a tactical stun, but not a 100% stun-lock fest anymore.

IceIX, was there any thought given to making ATU's stun 2 rounds by default? I suspect that most people here would be okay if the base was 2, extendable to 4. Not sure what that would do to the power level of the abilty though.

Don't really mind the purple/yellow nerf, probably going to swap to a 4/5/4 build as a result though. Need more heals, but still want that extra prot tile and the stun looks to still be the better ability. Also probably need to level him up to 141 now, as opposed to leaving him lower levelled to abuse the stun. Overall, I think that I need to play with the changes before I make a final judgement, but he does appear to be simply a choice now, as opposed to the clear winner when speed is irrelevant.

tl;dr : need more data to make final judgement, tactical stuns, not clearly op, rebuild ahoy.

Unknown

Curiously, is this the maths for the new blue?

5AP (0 web tiles, then 1)
Level 1: 1
Level 2: 1
Level 3: 1
Level 4: 1
Level 5: 1

10AP (0 web tiles, then 1, then 2)
Level 1: 1, 1
Level 2: 1, 1
Level 3: 1, 1
Level 4: 1, 2
Level 5: 1, 3

15AP (0 web tiles, then 1, then 2, then 3)
Level 1: 1, 1, 1
Level 2: 1, 1, 1
Level 3: 1, 1, 2
Level 4: 1, 2, 3
Level 5: 1, 3, 5

20AP (0 web tiles, then 1, then 2, then 3, then 4)
Level 1: 1, 1, 1, 1
Level 2: 1, 1, 1, 2
Level 3: 1, 1, 2, 3
Level 4: 1, 2, 3, 4
Level 5: 1, 3, 5, 6

Unknown

Tannen wrote:

Looks... okay.

Speaking as someone who has abused spidey a lot and have subsequently left him off my team for the last month or so, this looks like less of a nerf than I feared, but slightly more of one than I was hoping for. He still looks usable as a tactical stun, but not a 100% stun-lock fest anymore.

IceIX, was there any thought given to making ATU's stun 2 rounds by default? I suspect that most people here would be okay if the base was 2, extendable to 4. Not sure what that would do to the power level of the abilty though.

Don't really mind the purple/yellow nerf, probably going to swap to a 4/5/4 build as a result though. Need more heals, but still want that extra prot tile and the stun looks to still be the better ability. Also probably need to level him up to 141 now, as opposed to leaving him lower levelled to abuse the stun. Overall, I think that I need to play with the changes before I make a final judgement, but he does appear to be simply a choice now, as opposed to the clear winner when speed is irrelevant.

tl;dr : need more data to make final judgement, tactical stuns, not clearly op, rebuild ahoy.

If they're going to increase the base duration stun to 2 turns it'd likely be on either level 4 or level 5 since there's a trend of wanting to make the meaningful upgrades occur at the level where you've to actually decide what ability to max.

Unknown

Phantron wrote:

Tannen wrote:

Looks... okay.

Speaking as someone who has abused spidey a lot and have subsequently left him off my team for the last month or so, this looks like less of a nerf than I feared, but slightly more of one than I was hoping for. He still looks usable as a tactical stun, but not a 100% stun-lock fest anymore.

IceIX, was there any thought given to making ATU's stun 2 rounds by default? I suspect that most people here would be okay if the base was 2, extendable to 4. Not sure what that would do to the power level of the abilty though.

Don't really mind the purple/yellow nerf, probably going to swap to a 4/5/4 build as a result though. Need more heals, but still want that extra prot tile and the stun looks to still be the better ability. Also probably need to level him up to 141 now, as opposed to leaving him lower levelled to abuse the stun. Overall, I think that I need to play with the changes before I make a final judgement, but he does appear to be simply a choice now, as opposed to the clear winner when speed is irrelevant.

tl;dr : need more data to make final judgement, tactical stuns, not clearly op, rebuild ahoy.

If they're going to increase the base duration stun to 2 turns it'd likely be on either level 4 or level 5 since there's a trend of wanting to make the meaningful upgrades occur at the level where you've to actually decide what ability to max.

I could be wrong, but I think he just meant "before adding web tile buffs."

Unknown

soenottelling wrote:

I could be wrong, but I think he just meant "before adding web tile buffs."

I know what he means, but moving base stun from 1 turn to 2 turn is actually a pretty big upgrade since currently the ability is designed to make you pay a lot for that extra turn, so I don't think they'll just hand that out as a base ability. While everyone would like a 3 turn CD ability to be made into a 2 turn CD baseline, history shows we usually only get that on the level 5, and I think this suggestion is similar in terms of relative power so we can only expect it on the level 4/5 upgrades.

Unknown

Lol remove his heal ability to try and get people to buy healthpacks. GG

Spoit

It's not like there's much effective difference between 1 and 3 anyway

Unknown

Congratulations, 4 month from funbalance announcement to making him useless anyways. He's pretty much a story healer now, and with the new max amount not even really good at that.

Tannen

Phantron wrote:

soenottelling wrote:

I could be wrong, but I think he just meant "before adding web tile buffs."

I know what he means, but moving base stun from 1 turn to 2 turn is actually a pretty big upgrade since currently the ability is designed to make you pay a lot for that extra turn, so I don't think they'll just hand that out as a base ability. While everyone would like a 3 turn CD ability to be made into a 2 turn CD baseline, history shows we usually only get that on the level 5, and I think this suggestion is similar in terms of relative power so we can only expect it on the level 4/5 upgrades.

Yah, I did mean before everything.

So at level one, the stun would be 2 turns for 5 ap, at level five the stun is 2 turns + 1 per web (up to 4 turns max)

I suspect that it's too powerful given the cost, but I'd like to know if it was considered.

Unknown

IceIX wrote:

Spoit wrote:

Toxicadam wrote:

As long as Spidey can completely lock out one character, he will still have value.

Except...he can't really? If you want single character lockdown, use MBW or cap

<NotSpeakingAsADev>

-Black Widow tops at Level 50, is insanely squishy even at low level, and costs 9 AP per ability use. That's 3 matches per use which isn't the easiest to do. Even harder to stun lock since getting 9 more AP isn't the easiest more than once as you run out of Blue on the board. -Captain America takes 12 Blue AP and only stuns for 2 turns, getting AP back on the third. It's impossible to stun lock even one enemy until you get 24(!) Blue AP. His placement of Countdown tile is more useful than the Stun itself for me. -Storm takes 11 AP and stuns for 4 turns to one opponent. Also nearly impossible to stun lock. Her AoE damage is the key to this skill, the stun is a nice bonus. -Spider-Man can build a couple smaller stuns for 5 AP a piece and start in on 3 turn stuns with his third usage. At that point, his additional 3 turn stuns are *still* 5 AP. There's a large difference between 3 matches and 1.6 matches per ability usage. His ability to chain together stuns is still quite a bit better than anyone else on the field.

</NotSpeakingAsADev>

I suppose using Hood black with cap will allow first round of stun lock which if you keep matching blue can be continued although with the defense tiles left behind, would you need the stun lock other than for LT??

Spoit

repronaz wrote:

IceIX wrote:

Spoit wrote:

Toxicadam wrote:

As long as Spidey can completely lock out one character, he will still have value.

Except...he can't really? If you want single character lockdown, use MBW or cap

<NotSpeakingAsADev>

-Black Widow tops at Level 50, is insanely squishy even at low level, and costs 9 AP per ability use. That's 3 matches per use which isn't the easiest to do. Even harder to stun lock since getting 9 more AP isn't the easiest more than once as you run out of Blue on the board. -Captain America takes 12 Blue AP and only stuns for 2 turns, getting AP back on the third. It's impossible to stun lock even one enemy until you get 24(!) Blue AP. His placement of Countdown tile is more useful than the Stun itself for me. -Storm takes 11 AP and stuns for 4 turns to one opponent. Also nearly impossible to stun lock. Her AoE damage is the key to this skill, the stun is a nice bonus. -Spider-Man can build a couple smaller stuns for 5 AP a piece and start in on 3 turn stuns with his third usage. At that point, his additional 3 turn stuns are *still* 5 AP. There's a large difference between 3 matches and 1.6 matches per ability usage. His ability to chain together stuns is still quite a bit better than anyone else on the field.

</NotSpeakingAsADev>

I suppose using Hood black with cap will allow first round of stun lock which if you keep matching blue can be continued although with the defense tiles left behind, would you need the stun lock other than for LT??

And if you're using hood, you'll probably have siphoned enough AP that he cant' cast the yellow or green anymore by the time he gets unstuned

Unknown

Not really a great comparison but...

spidey 3* 5b -> stun 1 enemy 1 turn
venom 1* 7p -> stun 3 enemies 1 turn.

spidey 3* 15b -> stun enemies 1 turn / 2 turns / 3 turns
venom 1* 14p -> stun enemies 2 turn / 2 turns / 2 turns

Of course it gets worth it when you have 20b or more (if your web-titles still exist).
But damnn you need 20b to be better then the 1* variant?
Give me the Lazy Venom

Unknown

finwe wrote:

Congratulations, 4 month from funbalance announcement to making him useless anyways. He's pretty much a story healer now, and with the new max amount not even really good at that.

The change's agenda was clearly to make story-healing infeasible.

What for me makes the game infeasible, at least it makes leaving after S1 end a no-brainer. The, along with the recently revealed 'slight shove' to RNG that caused the veteran brackets ninja-change clearly shows there is just NO HOPE for this game's direction, "improvement" goes a single direction and because that is the one wanted. And amazingly keeps finding deeper pockets too, so it won't stop until a full collapse.

Unknown

Phantron wrote:

Depends on if you want speed safely or not. Without Magneto/Spiderman you're not getting safe speedy wins from Patch.

Lolwat? Tell me more about that, bub. This is another proof of what I said before — spider addicts just do not know how to play. Elite players, phhhh...

Unknown

IceIX wrote:

<NotSpeakingAsADev>

-Black Widow tops at Level 50, is insanely squishy even at low level, and costs 9 AP per ability use. That's 3 matches per use which isn't the easiest to do. Even harder to stun lock since getting 9 more AP isn't the easiest more than once as you run out of Blue on the board. -Captain America takes 12 Blue AP and only stuns for 2 turns, getting AP back on the third. It's impossible to stun lock even one enemy until you get 24(!) Blue AP. His placement of Countdown tile is more useful than the Stun itself for me. -Storm takes 11 AP and stuns for 4 turns to one opponent. Also nearly impossible to stun lock. Her AoE damage is the key to this skill, the stun is a nice bonus. -Spider-Man can build a couple smaller stuns for 5 AP a piece and start in on 3 turn stuns with his third usage. At that point, his additional 3 turn stuns are *still* 5 AP. There's a large difference between 3 matches and 1.6 matches per ability usage. His ability to chain together stuns is still quite a bit better than anyone else on the field.

</NotSpeakingAsADev>

Okay, calling you out on this one. Speaking as a player who has been playing this game for a long time and knows quite a bit about game mechanics.

- The level 50 limit for Black Widow doesn't really matter for PvE. Quite a few experienced players keep a level 1 Black Widow around, at 5 blue and 1 or 2 purple. She doesn't make any matches, she hides all the time, so she won't get hit. Sure, she will die to an area effect, but the fights she gets deployed for the whole team tends to die to that area effect, no matter the level. Effective stun level: 7 points (5 target, 1+1 non-target) for 9 blue, 78% effectiveness.

- Captain America is the only one who can really chain stun a single target once he has enough blue AP. It's tricky to set up, once the engine gets running is very cost efficient though. Lazy Shieldbro even throws an awesome shield tile into the bargain. Effective stun level once set up: 2 points for 2 blue, 100% effectiveness.

- Storm doesn't really compare. She has a very powerful area attack which, quite surprisingly, has an additional stun tacked onto it. Even without that stun the skill would be considered excellent. Effective stun level: 4 points for 11 blue, 36% effectiveness.

- Spider-Man won't be able to chain stuns, with this change he's one of the worst stunners around. You need to set up three web tiles to get full effect. Those are highly fragile, if you don't toss them out all at once there are almost guaranteed to be less around once you've collected enough blue for your next 3 turn stun. This isn't helped by All Tied Up now converting a random tile to yellow, possible hitting a blue tile you'd need or landing in such a spot that an existing web tile (which is yellow) auto-matches/AI-matches. Effective stun level: about 1.5 points (alternating between 1 and 2 to target, based on how fast web tiles get destroyed) for 5 blue, 30% effectiveness.

From personal experience, it takes that 100% effectiveness to chain stun, you need to make at least as much AP as you spend to reliably keep a single target locked down. With enough web tiles around, Spider-Man is currently able to drop 15 stun points for 6 blue, which doesn't quite suffice to keep the whole opponent team out of action, you need to down one member fast. 250% effectiveness, enough for two and a half targets, which we can agree on is ridiculously overpowered.

To be frank, I don't believe the upcoming change has received much playtesting, it feels like something slapped together by people not very familiar with the game. Even removing the web modificator to stun length and setting it directly to 3 turns just results in 60% effectiveness, which is still worse than Black Widow and nowhere near being able to chain stun a single character. Maybe if All Tied Up received an additional damage component, somewhat low like Psylocke's red and black ability, it would still be viable to use. Even that would be a tough call, given you usually want to keep those opponents out of the fight that you are currently not focusing damage on.

Rating this as Ragnarok reloaded, not even close to the well executed changes to Thor and Wolverine.

Unknown

it'd be easier to just make the blue power cost 1 ap more (so level 5 = 3 blue ap) and cut it and the heal to a max of 3 web tiles. that'd probably still be a bit strong, but this is just making him bagmanman.

Unknown

bloodwars wrote:

it'd be easier to just make the blue power cost 1 ap more (so level 5 = 3 blue ap) and cut it and the heal to a max of 3 web tiles. that'd probably still be a bit strong, but this is just making him bagmanman.

Nope, then we'd end up at 100% effectiveness, allowing you to reliably lock down one opponent for the whole fight. My personal feeling is that 75% effectiveness should be the limit, unless there are some additional strings attached.

Unknown

Moghwyn wrote:

...
Okay, calling you out on this one. Speaking as a player who has been playing this game for a long time and knows quite a bit about game mechanics.
...

Very, very well said. Too bad devs only bark at the game but not play it actually, and strictly refuse to listen to those who actually do.

They started from the 2-yellow/2-blue version of old spiderman and nerfed even that further.

People who had that kind of spidey along the way (or even one slightly better) can very well compare his performance against the others and in general.

The version I had most time was 5/3/3 -- it was marginally usable, really for special cases. And those 3+1 extra levels make a huge difference.

Unknown

pasa_ wrote:

finwe wrote:

Congratulations, 4 month from funbalance announcement to making him useless anyways. He's pretty much a story healer now, and with the new max amount not even really good at that.

The change's agenda was clearly to make story-healing infeasible.

What for me makes the game infeasible, at least it makes leaving after S1 end a no-brainer. The, along with the recently revealed 'slight shove' to RNG that caused the veteran brackets ninja-change clearly shows there is just NO HOPE for this game's direction, "improvement" goes a single direction and because that is the one wanted. And amazingly keeps finding deeper pockets too, so it won't stop until a full collapse.

Seriously? That sounds mad to me!!
I say this as someone who has still only got 2/2/0 build spidey (never used), never used OBW and never healed in story mode or in a match (other than wolvie yellow on 2* & 3*). Having never worried about finding a way to heal enough to be able to play 24/7, I have experienced a life aswell as done quite well in this game (5 3*'s @ 141 and constantly top 10 PVP and as best as I can finish PVE living in UK and not pulling a Ladder style no sleeper).
I dont understand how not being able to storymode heal can make you want to give the game up after S1 but I would suggest taking a break, coming back and finding a team that you like and can achive with, play what it will allow and then dabble now and then with your other covers for extra grind when you feel the need. (Maybe off topic but related to the above post)
Having never used spidey and only faced him, it opens up the game a bit to me as I will no longer be scared of retals from spidey teams under 20 points but no real game changer. He was weak, is weak and will forever be weak (even though he is supposed to have superhuman strength??)
P.S. Pasa this is not an attack but merely a "are you maybe taking this game too seriously" question