*** Spider-Man (Classic) ***

Unknown

jarcuri wrote:

I figured a higher cost to stun but 5 and a max of 2 or 3 turns? He's absolutely useless other than throwing in for a quick heal in a cheap pve setting....way to kill Spiderman if that was what you were looking for.....I blame people for complaining about him being op.....do the players who have spent isos on him get some back now because he is a worthless 141 for me

What *cheap* heal?

Unknown

Wowsers...

I never thought that my original long assessment from four months ago on how Spidey would have been funbalanced was about 85-90% correct, being dead on the money with a normalized OBW heal to the average 3*** character (40% of a standard 5800 HP "average" 3*** character @5 Yellow) and purple receiving a numbers adjustment

That said, Spidey's blue got hit harder than even I had originally pegged it to be nerfed.

Looking at the new yellow,

@141, 3 Yellow = same (within marginal tolerances) healing/AP as OBW (originally forecasted), 4 Yellow = 20% improvement, 5 Yellow = 40% improvement.

However, the 3 web tile booster is a HORRIBLE tradeoff. Using 15 Blue AP to generate a 40% additional heal is a ridiculously bad AP spend, unless you magically happen to be sitting on that while gathering the 12 Yellow. For Prologue/Story healing, you might as well close out the pin and restart with a fresh board to heal faster via a full board refresh. Even then, 4 full heals (48 AP) at 5 Yellow are required to bring any of the recent powerhouses (BP, LazyThor, Lazy Cap, and so on) back to full life.

TL;DR - Unless you are packing a 141 Spidey, OBW is now the faster/more effective healer. 5 Yellow is needed to achieve any significant healing gains over AGD at 85.

Unknown

My Spiderman never got more than 2 blue covers, so I have some experience with 5AP stun. Let me tell you: it's absolutely useless.

I think his new Yellow is just fine, but his Blue and Purple are definitely nerfed too hard. Don't get me wrong: his Blue had to be changed, but not like this. I like the suggestion of 2 turns of stun without web tiles.

Kavel

Stunlock as a strategy option within matches is gone now. He's now a completely defensive character (when used on offense). If you want to (slightly) reduce incoming damage via the occasional stun and weak protect tiles, with the chance to end matches with high HP via heal, he's an option.

I'm trying to envision a scenario in which that would be worth a roster slot, and the only time it even slightly makes sense is from a meta perspective. Damage has escalated significantly. It's harder to get through multiple matches without accumulating damage and exhausting health packs. The best way to do that now (CMags) will be gone soon, so the situation will be more pronounced. All this makes multi-match pushes for placement in tourneys difficult to pull off without buying Health Packs. Spidey could help, but I can't imagine it would be more efficient (in terms of time) to use him in your main team as opposed to dropping to story mode to heal every 4-5 matches. I guess you could only heal 2 characters at a time, so there's that.

I've had Spidey since before OBW was released, so I've never used her a lot, but would she be better for this purpose? She's got damage mitigation via heals and steals, plus decent damage when coupled with strike tiles.

Just really disappointed in this change. Spidey was key to me being able to pick up this game and play for long stretches. I'm just not going to go through the hassle of juggling prologue heals for random play sessions. I'm day 204+, and this is the first time I've envisioned pulling the plug. Picking up and playing a couple matches at a time every few hours just isn't appealing to me.

Unknown

To be honest (and I'm not reading 200 comments on the subject because it's pretty obvious)

Spiderman is useful for healing in story mode. Fine great. But his other changes make him unworthy of a slot in just about any scenario (except perhaps a heroic scenario where he's allowed)

Maybe Lazy Spiderman will come out soon with his old abilities. . .

Unknown

Boo. I guess I have to work on my obw... it just seems off, from a gameplay perspective, that a 2* is preferable to a 3* character. It seems to me if a 2* is so essential that you feel the need to run it over more expensive and rarer 3*, you have a balancing issue. Nerfing spidey only compounds that obw issue. We're already seeing this game devlove into obw+2 max characters vs. Obw+2max characters. All these characters and everyone is running the same basic team.

scottee

coffeeandbacon wrote:

Boo. I guess I have to work on my obw... it just seems off, from a gameplay perspective, that a 2* is preferable to a 3* character. It seems to me if a 2* is so essential that you feel the need to run it over more expensive and rarer 3*, you have a balancing issue. Nerfing spidey only compounds that obw issue. We're already seeing this game devlove into obw+2 max characters vs. Obw+2max characters. All these characters and everyone is running the same basic team.

I agree. Though OBW is a separate problem.

The incentive on both old Spidey and current OBW were that they would help you control the game and win, plus walk out with full health. I don't have a useful Spidey, but use OBW all the time. (part of it is her color coverage also) But with OBW in a match, you pretty much can center your matches around purple and blue, preventing the AI from getting purple and blue, and then Reconning when the AI gets too much of some other color. That's the problem previous with BOTH characters. If you were playing them, you centered the match around them. They're like Kobe hogging the ball. Let other players shine.

I have no problem with Spidey not being in a prominent role. I know he mainly has his own comics and all and isn't with a whole team of heros, but if you inserted Spiderman as a guest hero in any other Marvel movie, for example, he'd be pretty much completely useless. "Hey Wolverine, let me hold that guy down while you...oh, you already slashed his face off? Good job man."

Unknown

coffeeandbacon wrote:

Boo. I guess I have to work on my obw... it just seems off, from a gameplay perspective, that a 2* is preferable to a 3* character. It seems to me if a 2* is so essential that you feel the need to run it over more expensive and rarer 3*, you have a balancing issue. Nerfing spidey only compounds that obw issue. We're already seeing this game devlove into obw+2 max characters vs. Obw+2max characters. All these characters and everyone is running the same basic team.

Exactly, if people were using obw a lot, this nerf just made it worst, now she becomes a must play for pvp if you want to go for long stretches

Bainee

ihearthawthats wrote:

Long time no see Bainee. You are one of my earliest memories of a top player. Do you still play a lot?

Thanks, I am not playing as much as I used to. I still have a good roster and determine where I want to place in an event based on time spent to reward ratio and how I can help my alliance. Rather than trying to be top tier in each event.

Unknown

I just wonder what this will do to pvp from a points perspective. Obw or spidey were critical for marathon runs to generate enough points to place high in your bracket.

On the one hand it seems like a spidey nerf would make a late stage run harder or more health pack dependant. I am not a fan of last minute rubberbanding to the top so that SEEMS ok.
But... if you start early and rely on timed heals, your gonna get blasted by attacks. (Get hit for a ton of points with only 3 available in retal) and that will depress overall points or an extra reliance on shields.

F2p and p2w is really turning into p2p.....

Unknown

WolfmanX25 wrote:

My Spiderman never got more than 2 blue covers, so I have some experience with 5AP stun. Let me tell you: it's absolutely useless.

I think his new Yellow is just fine, but his Blue and Purple are definitely nerfed too hard. Don't get me wrong: his Blue had to be changed, but not like this. I like the suggestion of 2 turns of stun without web tiles.

As I wrote elsewhere my spiderman spent most time being 5/3/3 at level 75 then 90. That was completely useless in PVP had some rare runs in PVE. And for prologue healing marginally better than OBW. With 4/3/3 it was mostly same or worse. Getting the last 2 blue covers created unspeakable difference all around (though I didn't really used him outside healing as he doesn't fit my style.)

The nerf started with 2/2/x that is massively worse that the one mentioned and mutilates even that further.

This leaves us with a steaming pile of **** even at lvl141 that was hardly the norm and for good teamwork you should keep it quite down to leave the yellows to Patch.

I just don't think PVE pattern would suggest this complete overkill was needed while PVE could have been handled with a ban -- this form will not see voluntary play anyway.

Unknown

Although OBW is generally overpowered I don't see why people think you have to play her for extended play. It really doesn't work that well because you usually want OBW to match purple and blue for Espionage. If she's not matching either of these color her effectiveness is greatly reduced, but if she's matching those colors then she does take significant damage. What usually happens is you take about 2K from just the match damage while you take the purple/blue and you heal 1200 back with Anti-Grav but that means you start the next game with low 2K HPs which may get you killed so you either have to take a chance or use a health pack. Now you can get around that by having someone else tank blue (having someone else tank purple pretty much defeats the point of even having her) but then your healing is also reduced when you don't get Espionage on blue.

Unknown

coffeeandbacon wrote:

I just wonder what this will do to pvp from a points perspective. Obw or spidey were critical for marathon runs to generate enough points to place high in your bracket.

On the one hand it seems like a spidey nerf would make a late stage run harder or more health pack dependant. I am not a fan of last minute rubberbanding to the top so that SEEMS ok.
But... if you start early and rely on timed heals, your gonna get blasted by attacks. (Get hit for a ton of points with only 3 available in retal) and that will depress overall points or an extra reliance on shields.

F2p and p2w is really turning into p2p.....

The marathon runs are needed in the first place because you're constantly fending off those 40 point hits from anyone with Spiderman. With Spiderman no longer allow people to attack guys they've no business of winning you'd have less sudden loss of points against teams that are not supposed to be able to beat you. The net result is likely to be slightly more top heavy since Spiderman, especially combined with Magneto MN, is pretty much an equalizer that ensures no team is ever too powerful to be defeated, even when they should be!

scottee

Phantron wrote:

Although OBW is generally overpowered I don't see why people think you have to play her for extended play. It really doesn't work that well because you usually want OBW to match purple and blue for Espionage. If she's not matching either of these color her effectiveness is greatly reduced, but if she's matching those colors then she does take significant damage. What usually happens is you take about 2K from just the match damage while you take the purple/blue and you heal 1200 back with Anti-Grav but that means you start the next game with low 2K HPs which may get you killed so you either have to take a chance or use a health pack. Now you can get around that by having someone else tank blue (having someone else tank purple pretty much defeats the point of even having her) but then your healing is also reduced when you don't get Espionage on blue.

Um, ever since I got Pun to 141, I've been running him and OBW through pretty much every PVP never needing health packs (save a cascade disaster). Take all the purple, then blue. Recon when needed to prevent any moves from getting off. Damage as you get the AP. Anti-grav as needed to keep OBW from dying, and also right before finishing blow. Walk about with 100% health about 80-90% of the time (skip most matches with Spidey/Patch/Hood). The only thing that slows me down in PVP's is when attacks become more frequent than wins, as I don't usually shield hop at all.

EDIT: P.S. Yes I think she's slightly OP because of the above, though needing a small nerf is questionable. Spidey definitely needed a nerf.

Unknown

Phantron wrote:

coffeeandbacon wrote:

I just wonder what this will do to pvp from a points perspective. Obw or spidey were critical for marathon runs to generate enough points to place high in your bracket.

On the one hand it seems like a spidey nerf would make a late stage run harder or more health pack dependant. I am not a fan of last minute rubberbanding to the top so that SEEMS ok.
But... if you start early and rely on timed heals, your gonna get blasted by attacks. (Get hit for a ton of points with only 3 available in retal) and that will depress overall points or an extra reliance on shields.

F2p and p2w is really turning into p2p.....

The marathon runs are needed in the first place because you're constantly fending off those 40 point hits from anyone with Spiderman. With Spiderman no longer allow people to attack guys they've no business of winning you'd have less sudden loss of points against teams that are not supposed to be able to beat you. The net result is likely to be slightly more top heavy since Spiderman, especially combined with Magneto MN, is pretty much an equalizer that ensures no team is ever too powerful to be defeated, even when they should be!

This is why I was excited about this nerf. I know I would always get mad when I would see spiderman on every retaliation node with under leveled guys. I will miss his prologue healing but hoping for less attacks/ more defense wins with this nerf.

Nonce Equitaur 2

Whoo-hoo! I'm in the rare "fully-covered, not maxed" Spiderman club. Now I can focus on Daken, Human Torch, Falcon, Daredevil, Loki, and Doctor Doom. Still missing a lot of IW covers, I think she could be interesting.

Spiderman now suffers greatly from Fragile Tile Syndrome. Other sufferers include Ares, Black Panther, Doctor Doom, Human Torch, Hawkeye, Iron Man, Psylocke, and Wolverine. Each of these people has a power that relies on a tile going to a safe place for it to be effective, and it not being easily destroyed. The more work that's required for that fragile tile, the more the character gets nerfed when it lands on a match-3 set.

The cure is to allow some selection power (Mags, Cap), to put out lots of tiles (Falcon, mStorm), or to make the tiles jumpy (Daredevil). Daredevil has the opposite problem -- damnedably sturdy tiles.

DD-The-Mighty

Moghwyn wrote:

DD-The-Mighty wrote:

and i think the Devs are quite knowledgeable of their game mechanics. Spidey a clear and deliberate nerf into the Usable-but-lackluster territory. Simple as that.

We'll have to disagree on that. Looking at Loki, Ragnarok, Classic Storm, Spider-Man and Classic Magneto in their pre-nerfed glory the only thing I see is an utter lack of understanding in anything resembling game balance. It wasn't just a stupid idea, it was also blatantly obvious.

Fixed that out of context quote for you. And we really don't need 2 separate replys to address a single post.
Based on the inclusion of C.Storm and Loki on that list its very clear you're a huge fan of excessive power creep. I am a big fan of hard countering characters, but If you think that sore thumbs like Spider-man and Ragnarok didn't need nerfing, then you may be too far gone to reason with.

Nonce Equitaur 2 wrote:

Whoo-hoo! I'm in the rare "fully-covered, not maxed" Spiderman club. Now I can focus on Daken, Human Torch, Falcon, Daredevil, Loki, and Doctor Doom. Still missing a lot of IW covers, I think she could be interesting.

Spiderman now suffers greatly from Fragile Tile Syndrome. Other sufferers include Ares, Black Panther, Doctor Doom, Human Torch, Hawkeye, Iron Man, Psylocke, and Wolverine. Each of these people has a power that relies on a tile going to a safe place for it to be effective, and it not being easily destroyed. The more work that's required for that fragile tile, the more the character gets nerfed when it lands on a match-3 set.

The cure is to allow some selection power (Mags, Cap), to put out lots of tiles (Falcon, mStorm), or to make the tiles jumpy (Daredevil). Daredevil has the opposite problem -- damnedably sturdy tiles.

Agreed. using the grossly unpredictable nature of match 3 mechanics to counter-balance special tiles is not working out so well. It's just too easy to tile shatter or just plain cascade them out. Even when you get to choose your spot there's always that risk of losting them to match 4's , tile destroyers and cascades (lookin at you Yellow shieldbro) so why not let us pick out spots. As you mentioned the best special tile users are either those who can choose where to put them and those who spam enough easily (Dak,Bullseye, H.Torch, etc etc.) I would love to see more of those. as they are consistent and the ai is so random (with selectables) it balances out to not bee too oppressive on def.

Unknown

For me less than 5% of incoming attacks had spiderman and I made it a sport to bash them down immediately with various teams until stopped coming or got the +X points report

Unknown

pasa_ wrote:

For me less than 5% of incoming attacks had spiderman and I made it a sport to bash them down immediately with various teams until stopped coming or got the +X points report

Pretty hard to do that when they hit you for 40 and you hit them back for 12 points.

Spiderman always collects on his debts no matter how powerful your team is.

Unknown

IceIX wrote:

The time is finally almost here for old Web Head to receive his turn in the crucible of the balance pass. Below is the updated design for each of his abilities. We're currently planning on putting these Live next week.

Old Ability:

Web Bandages - Yellow 13 AP
Spider-Man makes make-shift slings of webbing for his friends. Removes all Web tiles, and all allies heal 118 health for every Web tile removed (minimum 118, maximum 1892).
Max Level: Heals 741HP per web tile (up to 11864HP)

Updated Ability:

Web Bandages - Yellow 12 AP
Spider-Man webs makeshift slings, healing his team for 142. If 3 or more Web tiles exist he converts them to bandages, healing his team for an additional 149.
Max level 141 5/5: Heals for 2314 with an additional 934 with 3 Web tiles.[/u]

Level 85 5/5: 1534 base healing + 619 with Web tiles = 2153 max healing
Compare to Black Widow (Original) max level - 1228 healing

Older Ability:

All Tied Up - Blue 6 AP
Spider-Man wraps up the target in webbing, adding a new Yellow Web tile to the board and then stunning the enemy for 1 turn for each Web tile on the board (to a maximum of 5 turns).
Level 5: Costs 1 AP less.

Updated Ability:

All Tied Up - Blue 5 AP
Spider-Man slings webs, stunning the enemy for 1 turn. He then adds a Yellow Web tile to the board.
Level 5: +1 or +2 turns of stun when 1 or 2 Web tiles exist


Older Ability:

Spider-Sense - Purple Passive
(PASSIVE) Spider-Man's senses tingle and he moves to protect his team. If there aren't any friendly Purple Protect tiles, he creates one when his team matches Purple tiles. New Protect tile Strength is based on the number of Web tiles in play.
Max Level: Damage reduced by 66 per Protect tile with 0 Web tiles on board (up to 446 per Protect tile with 5 Web tiles on board).

Updated Ability:

Spider-Sense - Purple Passive
(PASSIVE) Spider-Man's senses tingle and he moves to protect his team. If there aren't any friendly Purple Protect tiles, he creates one when his team matches Purple tiles. New Protect tile Strength is based on the number of Web tiles in play.
Max Level 141 5/5: 20/54/115/210 Protect tiles depending on Web tiles on board.

How Spidey became useless...

Yellow was deceptive. It was made to "seem" like "not so bad
Old max for 3 web tiles = 2223
Old max for 15 blue ap worth of tiles = 5187
Old max allowed up to 16 tiles for 11864
New max for 3 web tiles = 3248
2 problems...
1) web tile cost has changed so that 3 old tiles = 6 blue while 3 new tiles = 15 blue
2) overall healing potential is 27% of what is was & for an equal amount of 15 blue ap its 63% of what is was & healing a 3* from 0 health will require multiple passes of 9 yellow & 15 blue (2-4 depending on character)
So 16 tiles was old maximum which is enough for 2 full heals in new system (2* 15 = 30), so 3248*2 / 11864 = 55% but 2x yellows needed

Blue was beyond neutered
Old stun 15 blue = 7 stuns = 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5 + 5 + 5 rounds = 35 total of stun
New stun 15 blue = 3 stuns = 1 + 2 + 3 rounds = 6 rounds of stun
Stun is at 17% of what is was when the new system is maxed out & it gets way worse on an absolute level compared to old system as one compares more blue (at 20 blue its 50 rounds of old stun vs 9 rounds of new stun)

Purple took a big hit too
the altered blue costs make this comparison easier
Old purple gave 446 per match w 10 blue worth of tiles on board
New purple gives 210 per match w 15 blue worth of tiles on board
so the match are worth 47% of what they were will requiring along w 1.5x ap, per blue tile the change is 31% of what it was

Now to figure out what percentage drop it is in total, we need to multiply the percentages. We need to figure which % to use for each
Yellow: 27% of total healing & 63% considering equal 15 blue & 55% at maximum old blue (32) but 2x yellow is needed. An average of 27 & 55 seems reasonable, so 41%
Blue: 17%
Purple: same problem as yellow (more ap needed for apples and apples comparison), so another average of 31 & 47 for 39%

Multiply them together
Old: 100% * 100% * 100% = 100% = exactly like classic spidey
New: 41% * 17% * 39% = 2.7% of what he used to be

So basically not at all usable for pvp or pve
Kinda useful for prologue healing if you are willing do several rounds per 0 character being boosted to max