*** Spider-Man (Classic) ***
Comments
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He sucks now.
People arguing his viability better be using him next season. Good luck with that as IM40 and MMags both suck.
He's support. He shouldn't need to be built around.
15 blue to get 3 web tiles needed for everything. Plus if you use heal, you have to start over, TROLLFACE.
Don't match those random web tiles.
1/2/3 stun, so no more permastuns without B generation.
Bad heal, bad stun, bad protect tiles, terrible character.
BagMan wins. At least he's useful again CD tiles.0 -
I'm sure we could dig something up but I don't think we've ever looked at this number in particular since there are so many things that cause variance. Level differential, skills used, number of minions versus characters... Hard to pin this down with any strength.soenottelling wrote:Ice, any chance you have what might be a very random seeming number to have..but...do you have the average ap earned per a match?0 -
bonfire01 wrote:gamar wrote:bonfire01 wrote:gamar wrote:Seems like he needs a Scarlet Spider or Venom (Eddie Brock) 3* to pair up with on Web Tiles.
He reminds me of Thor/BP/GSBW now, "get to 1X AP and win the match," the difference being that those characters can do that if they're the last man standing... Spidey at 3 web tiles makes you pretty much impervious in three different ways, but you need someone else alive to deliver the kill.
LMAO 3 web tiles makes you impervious? Really? You stun for 3 turns in then next turn the target you stunned first will wake up so you just need to get 5 blue AP EVERY turn.. In which reality does that make you impervious? The reality where you get blue 5 matches every turn?
The reality where I have 3 strength 210 protect tiles, can heal my entire team for 2,000 HP if I need to, and am using my stuns simply to prevent the opponent from using a "big" ability like CTS it has the AP for because I don't care about anything else he does?
If 3 210 protect tiles was that great then why aren't ppl breaking out IW to make a 600+ protect tile off one ability? How are you stopping tiles getting matched? Also if you heal those tiles go poof and you need to find 15 blue AP again. This also relies on you NOT making any purple matches before you get your 3 web tiles out since they won't overwrite unless you're guaranteeing you can match them away and you're going 5 yellow 5 purple so your stuns are terrible...
It doesn't even come close to making you impervious and takes so ridiculously long to ramp up unless you plan to run MMN as well but that means you've already made all your protect tiles on 0-1 web tiles just to get the AP to make your 3 web tiles. Or we can go IM40 to make blue but then there went all your yellows for the heal.... There is pretty much no situation at all where the new version of spidey is a good fit for anything because his skills are pretty terrible. A 9 cost blue from a 1* hero has more turns of total stunning than 15 AP spent by Spiderman... even when he has 3 webs on board it's still only 6 turns of stunning for 10 AP and widows sting is 7 for 9 and almost as good at stunlocking 1 starget.
The idea that a hero is "good" if you can get 15 blue AP THEN make 3 purple matches and have 12 yellow AP on hand all of which does no damage at all to supply protect tiles which you then have to hope don't get including by your hand as your making a purple match for the next tile to generate is just insane. He has been nerfed to hell and serves little if any purpose.ZenBrillig wrote:If you can't figure out how to use him, then that's entirely your problem.
Please enlighten me...
While I agree spider seems pretty weak now, and Zen's comment was anything but helpful....I would like to point out I don't think yellow uses up webs anymore.
Also, while I agree/disagree with gamar to an extent as its very hard to get those tiles of that strength out and very hard to keep them all there without a lot of luck, I think his response was such because yours to him was rather rude. Rudeness makes ppl defend thier opinions and thoughts just for the sake of being more right than you as opposed to ACTUALLY being right.
This highlights the fact ,imo, that spider now makes a rather well balanced lvl 200 character to fight against though. Very irritating with his yellow, blue doesn't do much...but its there every once in a while to annoy you, and his purple can effectively kill you if you take too long. In the current meta, he is utterly useless really... But as a machine character I think he runs a lot like a villian version (well..hero) of the lieutenant that heals. Garbage on his own, but if you don't.take.him out first the other bruisers might take.you out.
So...my "trying to be cheerful" takehome is..the next
art of the pve story is coming soon, is going to be villian based, and is going to have sentry as the reward.
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So I've been thinking how to best use Spidey, and I think the best way would be if there was gold Venom or any other 3-stars that can lay down web tiles. Spider-Woman perhaps.
That is the only way I'd seriously use Spidey again aside from a redesign (why does Spidey heal people again?). Make it happen D3.0 -
bonfire01 wrote:
The idea that a hero is "good" if you can get 15 blue AP THEN make 3 purple matches and have 12 yellow AP on hand all of which does no damage at all to supply protect tiles which you then have to hope don't get including by your hand as your making a purple match for the next tile to generate is just insane. He has been nerfed to hell and serves little if any purpose.
I didn't say he was "good," far from it, I think he's awful now. I said IF you get to 15 blue AP AND your team is still alive it's pretty hard to lose the battle, and presented Thor who needs a good amount of AP but DOESN'T need the team alive as a counterpoint to show where Spidey doesn't stand up like Thor does.0 -
IceIX wrote:
I'm sure we could dig something up but I don't think we've ever looked at this number in particular since there are so many things that cause variance. Level differential, skills used, number of minions versus characters... Hard to pin this down with any strength.soenottelling wrote:Ice, any chance you have what might be a very random seeming number to have..but...do you have the average ap earned per a match?
If u can find something, that would be great, but its not super important. You could always just look at matches from the ends of tournements by bracket...given the new bracket set up maybe? I don't know how your data is categorized so I don't know if something like that would be hard for you to pull up.0 -
Spider sense is way better than pretty much all protection abilities. Compare to Bird Strike, by the time you got 12 purple you'd have 3 spider sense out for about 200 protection with 0 web tiles out (66*3). That stops pretty much all match 3 and doesn't require AP expenditure. Bird Strike is around 500, but that's actually overkill on match 3s, and not quite enough to matter on the hard hitting single target abilities that do 2K+ (you'd be looking at 1800 versus 1500, which matters but is hardly something that'd make a huge difference). In fact the only attack it'd matter is Molotov which hits just quite hard enough for the extra protection to matter.
And it gets even worse when you compare to say Captain America (requires 12 blue to even get started) or Defense Grid (very common to generate 1 or 0 protect tiles before it gets blown up for a rather heavy upfront cost). Yes someone has to be the best at any given category but the difference was rather large which makes designing protection abilities rather pointless when your best protection ability is a passive.
For Spiderman his problem in PvP is twofold:
1. Anyone you beat who has Spiderman is certain to retaliate if you're worth 25+ points, greatly increasing the amount of pointless matches. This includes teams that have no business of beating your team, like say a low level featured + Magneto MN + level 100 Spiderman versus 3X141s.
2. There's still a nonzero chance that a big blue cascade makes you lose a game, even if it's a team that has no business beating your team like the one mentioned above.
Now that Spiderman no longer allows people to beat up guys that they've no business of winning, the question is what happens when the other pillar of blue gets nerfed. As is Magneto would net you far better sustainability than Spiderman now because you can't always heal to full, and that having Spiderman no longer even guarantees a win (you can heal but if the other team pulls off a big cascade you'd still lose, since you can no longer stunlock them). In the long run the question is if you take a fairly defensive team like say, Spiderman + The Hood + featured, does the slower killing rate of this team reach some kind of equilibrium with a team like Thor + another offense guy + featured which will be winning faster but taking more damage overall. That's something that's impossible to say without seeing the change.0 -
soenottelling wrote:While I agree spider seems pretty weak now, and Zen's comment was anything but helpful....I would like to point out I don't think yellow uses up webs anymore.
If you have 3 or more you get a boost to healing and it removes 3 tiles for extra healing, so yes it still removes them as long as you have 3 or more.
@Phantron to get those 200+ tiles you need 5 in purple AND have spent 15 blue AP without any web tiles getting matched away AND to have made 3 purple matches AND to have made no purple matches before your 3 web tiles are out or to have matched away all your earlier tiles AND to be able to make those 3 purple matches without matching away a protect tile you want to keep.
It's easier to get 19 yellow and have Lazy Cap make 3 slightly better tiles with only 3 in yellow or 4 significantly better ones if your investing 5 covers so I don't agree at all that it's better than pretty much all protection abilities. Also you mention Lazycap's blue takes 12 blue AP to get going but to make those 210 protect tiles you need to have 15 blue AP for spiderman.
The lag in generating tiles is far too big, you've taken plenty of damage in the interim and been making a load of matches which have netted you a 1, 2 and 3 turn stun then getting 9 purple that you likely can't use unless you're running C Mags then you probably just used his blue instead.
I don't see any good use for him. In PvP he'll be almost completely useless and in PvE, unless scaling changes those protect tiles mean nothing at all. You need stuns or overwhelming damage to get through the bad guys who get thrown at you unless you've done a really good job managing your scaling and no, the scaling doesn't work well if you just remove spidey. Ppl are facing lvl 300 Final nodes in the heroic with no spidey available to use.
I genuinely can't think of a situation outside prologue healing where he would be worth using in this state, he simply fills no role better than another option IMO.0 -
bonfire01 wrote:soenottelling wrote:While I agree spider seems pretty weak now, and Zen's comment was anything but helpful....I would like to point out I don't think yellow uses up webs anymore.
If you have 3 or more you get a boost to healing and it removes 3 tiles for extra healing, so yes it still removes them as long as you have 3 or more.
Since you need 15 blue AP to put 3 web tiles there and that's assuming none of them ever got destroyed, I don't think you need to worry about that for a while. It looks like you'd only have 3 (or more) web tiles up if the board happens to be particularly loaded on blue. Otherwise you'd probably just use the base heal for Web Bandages (which is still pretty considerable).0 -
0 Web ones are 20 now, and that's with the extra 25% for 5 purple, Which I don't see many people bothering with now. I rarely bother trying to elminate spidey defense tiles now, I sure as kitty won't be bothering when they're half the value.Phantron wrote:Spider sense is way better than pretty much all protection abilities. Compare to Bird Strike, by the time you got 12 purple you'd have 3 spider sense out for about 200 protection with 0 web tiles out (66*3). That stops pretty much all match 3 and doesn't require AP expenditure. Bird Strike is around 500, but that's actually overkill on match 3s, and not quite enough to matter on the hard hitting single target abilities that do 2K+ (you'd be looking at 1800 versus 1500, which matters but is hardly something that'd make a huge difference). In fact the only attack it'd matter is Molotov which hits just quite hard enough for the extra protection to matter.
And it gets even worse when you compare to say Captain America (requires 12 blue to even get started) or Defense Grid (very common to generate 1 or 0 protect tiles before it gets blown up for a rather heavy upfront cost). Yes someone has to be the best at any given category but the difference was rather large which makes designing protection abilities rather pointless when your best protection ability is a passive.
For Spiderman his problem in PvP is twofold:
1. Anyone you beat who has Spiderman is certain to retaliate if you're worth 25+ points, greatly increasing the amount of pointless matches. This includes teams that have no business of beating your team, like say a low level featured + Magneto MN + level 100 Spiderman versus 3X141s.
2. There's still a nonzero chance that a big blue cascade makes you lose a game, even if it's a team that has no business beating your team like the one mentioned above.
Now that Spiderman no longer allows people to beat up guys that they've no business of winning, the question is what happens when the other pillar of blue gets nerfed. As is Magneto would net you far better sustainability than Spiderman now because you can't always heal to full, and that having Spiderman no longer even guarantees a win (you can heal but if the other team pulls off a big cascade you'd still lose, since you can no longer stunlock them). In the long run the question is if you take a fairly defensive team like say, Spiderman + The Hood + featured, does the slower killing rate of this team reach some kind of equilibrium with a team like Thor + another offense guy + featured which will be winning faster but taking more damage overall. That's something that's impossible to say without seeing the change.
And right now, taking a defensive team is just asking for you to be hit at least twice in the amount of time it takes to put it in0 -
Gapsule wrote:Too soon to tell until we get to play with him, but he looks terrible.
I'm not sure how blue works based on the wording. Does it cap at 2-3 stun?
Permastun isn't going to happen. 5 cost for 1 turn stun? 15 to stun the team for 6 turns overall. 1/2/3 stun... No way you get enough to permastun. Even vs. one hero its overpriced.
BagMan is looking so much better.
Seriously for 9 blues I can stun the whole team for 1 turn and my target for 5 turns.... With a level 40. They should of added damage to the blue, that can double and triple with each web.
SERIOUSLY they made him 1* material.0 -
Phantron wrote:bonfire01 wrote:soenottelling wrote:While I agree spider seems pretty weak now, and Zen's comment was anything but helpful....I would like to point out I don't think yellow uses up webs anymore.
If you have 3 or more you get a boost to healing and it removes 3 tiles for extra healing, so yes it still removes them as long as you have 3 or more.
Since you need 15 blue AP to put 3 web tiles there and that's assuming none of them ever got destroyed, I don't think you need to worry about that for a while. It looks like you'd only have 3 (or more) web tiles up if the board happens to be particularly loaded on blue. Otherwise you'd probably just use the base heal for Web Bandages (which is still pretty considerable).
If you don't have web tiles then his protect tiles are, at 141, with 5 in purple strength 20... or 54 with one. If you don't have web tiles down he is doing pretty much nothing but a heal. Why take him over OBW who's heal isn't as good but tile denial will do more than strength 20/54 protect tiles and a couple of 1 turn stuns (unless you are 4+ blue then the heal or protect tiles are worse because you don't have 5 in them)?
EDIT: Having said OBW's heal isn't as good, if you have less than 3 web tiles then she actually heals MORE damage per AP spent if both heroes are 85. The only thing that makes Spidey better for healing is he can level above 85...0 -
ZenBrillig wrote:bonfire01 wrote:
Please enlighten me...
I never attempt impossibilities - you've clearly made up your mind.
From my perspective hes been neutered to being almost useless but if you have a way he's good i would GENUINELY be pleased to know it... So lay it on me....0 -
bonfire01 wrote:ZenBrillig wrote:bonfire01 wrote:
Please enlighten me...
I never attempt impossibilities - you've clearly made up your mind.
From my perspective hes been neutered to being almost useless but if you have a way he's good i would GENUINELY be pleased to know it... So lay it on me....
Easy now Bonfire01, Zen does not make constructive comments.0 -
This sucks. Why couldn't you just up the AP like you did with Rag? Now he's worthless. You just murdered the best character in the game.0
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Spoit wrote:0 Web ones are 20 now, and that's with the extra 25% for 5 purple, Which I don't see many people bothering with now. I rarely bother trying to elminate spidey defense tiles now, I sure as kitty won't be bothering when they're half the value.
And right now, taking a defensive team is just asking for you to be hit at least twice in the amount of time it takes to put it in
I don't think I ever purposely tried to setup defensively unless it's a PvE battle against level 395 guys where you need some protection just to not die to their match 3s, but Spiderman's protection was still by far the best overall prior to the nerf. All the other protection abilities requires you to commit a rather large amount of APs and they're not exactly hard to destroy. Looking at his abilities I'd say yellow is still very good, and purple is about right for the generic 'weakest out of 3' abilities. What is not clear to me is where the new ATU falls under.
A team like Magneto MN + Spiderman should never make you feel threatened and yet currently it does (because that guy will just come back and collect his 40 points later from retaliation after you squashed him). Defensive team shouldn't be favored over offense in general. The equilibrium should be while your team is weak or you're recovering from a bad wipeout, having someone like The Hood + Spiderman allows you to at least get some games while waiting for health pack to come back. It shouldn't be the best team because that'd just be a repeat of the current scenario where defense is so dominant that you can pretty much bank on any Spiderman team to always retaliate via their superior defensive ability.0 -
The purple nerf is a bit too much, but the other nerf is a necessary evil..
On another note, does sipdey's yellow now not removes the web tiles?0
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