*** Spider-Man (Classic) ***

Unknown

I'll start out with saying that I never envied the devs on this endeavor we all knew that nerfing spidey and keeping him useable was going to be a monumental feat.

Now with that said. here's my thoughts on the nerfs.

Blue-
lets get the elephant out of the room right away. We all knew that this skill HAD to change at 2 AP it was just tinykitty broken.
The question then remained was how. And how will it affect the generation of web tiles for the other skills.
I really do believe that with the way they changed the AP cost of this skill and maxed the stun to 3 turns that this was likely more then enough to nerf spidey into a much less desirable state putting him into a low tier 2 status.
5AP might not seem like alot at first glace but what we're talking about here is that it now takes 5 turns of blue matches get get into territory that the devs are envisioning for this skill!
this doesnt even account for other matches you get or possible match 5's,boosts, ect but overall u get the idea. We're talking about playing the game straight up and having a nice but not perfect board 5 turns just to set up for at best a medicore stun that is completely outclassed by every other stun in the game.
also we're not even talking yet about how this drastic change in web generation affects his other skills.

Yellow-
I really didnt see the "need" to change this skill other then from the viewpoint that you can no longer rely on having many if any webtiles on the table.(which is honestly a pretty big deal) so with that in mind i'm inclined to call this a lateral move maybe even a buff even if it is also overall a nerf his his possible total healing output.

Quick example of lvl 141:
Old yellow with current blue 9y AP + 15B would be 2223 healing
New yellow: 12y for 2314 base and if you add 15B becomes 3248 total

Purple- i honestly dont have much good to say about this, congrats you just made freaking Bullseye better then Spidey in this regard.
This ability already got hammered HARD with the change in the blue alone you didnt need to go and completely obliterate the last truly good thing that Spidey had going for him.
To put things into prospective you would have had to invest 25blue AP and somehow protect the webtiles to be able to start generating 446 protect tiles.
Now? you need to invest 15blue AP to get 210's
To give some direct comparisons in this department I'd much rather invest 8b AP to generate a 118 tile each other turn with BP and thats not getting in my larger first thought:

Why the hell would I use Spidey at all when compared to Steve Rogers? (and i dont even LIKE Rogers all that much)
3* cap has one of the best reds in the game.
his blue not only has a almost equivalent stun but gives a better defense tile then Spidey is even capable or creating
and no one really uses Steve's yellow but my god if you do? you can forget anything but the most potent attacks doing much anything to your team.

So the verdict is that im rather disappointed in these changes as with alot of the other changes recently
I will concede though that we knew Spidey needed nerfed and that we were likely to be disappointed with just about anything that even resembled his old skill set as it was too hard to balance it without being either OP or bag status.

-edited to correct ap costs comparisons

Unknown

IceIX wrote:

Twysta wrote:

It now costs 15 blue AP and one purple match to make a 54 strength defense tile @ 141.

Err, 3 Web tiles on the board (15 Blue AP spent) would make a 210 strength Protect tile.

AND Lcap makes a 291 strength protect tile for 12 blue AP with a refund... there's almost no comparison you can make that makes spiderman look good with these changes.

SO Ice.... how do you think the comparison of the new web tiles goes against a 2* C.Storm's blue? 10 AP for a 1 then 2 turn stun vs 11 for a 4 turn stun and aoe damage? (I would also say L.Cap's is far better with his refund and protect tile)

Do you GENUINELY think Spidey is of any use at all with those changes? With his zero damage what role do you think he fills with such a terrible stun and mediocre protect tiles? Prologue healing?

Spoit

I'm not convinced that OBW wouldn't be better, for any situation other than against someone like a PvE scaled daken

WilsonFisk

So I spent 5000 HP and bought covers for my Spidey. I am/was an admitted Spidey abuser, with the Nerf he's useless to me. Is D3 going to refund my HP now that they've changed the product I bought post purchase?

I understand the change, but the fact remains I paid money for something that is going to be totally different than what was purchased.

mags1587

I'm having a hard time imagining how his stun will work in practice. Ideally you want stun to be able to keep a goon's tile from going off or keep someone's devastating ability from going off until you can kill them or match the tile way. His stun might be okay... or it might be a little too underpowered.

I wish his yellow or at least his purple had been uncoupled from a reliance on web tiles on the board. It's really expensive to get web tiles on the board now. At first glance it doesn't seem like yellow and especially purple have fully taken that into account.

I hope the stun is still effective in stopping nukes. Because if it's not, then these changes will make Spider-Man pretty much useless (see: Ragnarok, Loki). We'll see.

Spoit

Basically, this thread is convincing me that maybe I should spend some ISO on lazy cap

Unknown

Spoit wrote:

Basically, this thread is convincing me that maybe I should spend some ISO on lazy cap

Read the link in my siggy if you need to see more thoughts i had awhile ago about Lazy Cap.
I made it back when my alliance mates were all going nuts over him

Unknown

Makes me wanna puke. The agenda was clearly to get rid of prologue healing -- it is well accomplished now.

As for game utility, MBW looks running circles around spiderman. Or even ** captain. Both having actually useful abilities in the pack while Spiderman was pure defensive support without anything to add for offense.

Now his defense is gone down the drain getting nothing up in exchange.

Anyone saw 2-blue spiderman used in PVP? There was some good reason for that. This one is considerably weaker even than that.

Just remove him from the game would have been a more fair treatment compared to this bagmanization.

TheHueyFreeman

Spoit wrote:

Basically, this thread is convincing me that maybe I should spend some ISO on lazy cap

Its quite tempting. Hes now hit my rotation of 4 characters that i want to level
-BP
-Lazy Daken (Mohawken)
-Hood
- ShieldBro

DirigiblePilot

Ok, speaking almost completely objectively here, as I never got enough covers to use him before the nerf:
Ice, you state in the OP that the new blue encourages players to use the ability right away rather than hoarding it. I think this is actually a bad strategy, though, for this reason.

We all know how bad Mawkeye is because he can't place his countdown tiles, and how unlikely they are to last until activation. Why don't we think the same about these web tiles? That first Web tile DOUBLES the effectiveness of the next usage (assuming level 5) and if you use the ability right away, you will still need two more matches to get another usage (assuming standard match-3s.)

In that time, especially because the enemy was stunned for only one turn, isn't it moderately likely that the Web tile will be removed? And even if it wasn't, you only get two turns from the next usage, and then they have the chance to remove either of the now-two Web tiles. It doesn't start ramping up until the third use, which assumes A) that your tiles remained on the board and that you can get that 15! blue AP.

To clarify, I think the change is definitely fair, and that it was too powerful before. Essentially, this is my roundabout way of asking, "What is the new strategy for maximizing effectiveness of the ability?" And to me, it still seems like that best usage is to hoard it and rip out several stuns in a row.

P.S. Now that you have cut the generation of tiles' effectiveness by 3/5, was it really necessary to ALSO nerf the other two abilities, at least as much as was done?)

Unknown

Spoit wrote:

Basically, this thread is convincing me that maybe I should spend some ISO on lazy cap

He excells in pve. Pvp, he's better than the new Spidey but not better than other current staples.

The thing about Spidey vs Cap is that while Cap is better overall, Spidey still fills a unique role that no other 3-star can--healing.

Unknown

DirigiblePilot wrote:

P.S. Now that you have cut the generation of tiles' effectiveness by 3/5, was it really necessary to ALSO nerf the other two abilities, at least as much as was done?)

I'm not sure what they were thinking as well, and I am a bit worried for cmags. Spidey's blue was OP, so all his abilities got nerfed? Likewise, will cmags get all his abilities nerfed due to his OP blue?

IceIX

DirigiblePilot wrote:

To clarify, I think the change is definitely fair, and that it was too powerful before. Essentially, this is my roundabout way of asking, "What is the new strategy for maximizing effectiveness of the ability?" And to me, it still seems like that best usage is to hoard it and rip out several stuns in a row.

P.S. Now that you have cut the generation of tiles' effectiveness by 3/5, was it really necessary to ALSO nerf the other two abilities, at least as much as was done?)

My own personal strategy with the new Spider-Man is to gain 7+ AP with another Blue match on the board and non-easily matchable yellows. Or if the opponent doesn't match Yellow then just having enough Blue to toss out a second stun quickly. That puts my Blue in a comfortable situation, provides a couple Web tiles for the other abilities to start doing their things soon if I want and makes the Protect tiles strong enough to be worth creating. As I'm working with the board at this point I play to protect those two Web tiles just like how I normally protect Strike tiles. Sometimes they get hit by cascades or the like but usually they stay fairly safe. That puts me in a position to match two Blue matches at some point and either start the stunlock train up or get some stronger healing in. 15 Blue AP comes nearly every battle when I'm looking for it, just as Thor will pretty well always be able to Call the Storm if that's what I want to do in the match.

Kelbris

Are we going to be able to sell Spidey for a bunch of ISO? I've had a level 75 AND a level 15 4/5/4 for ages.

In celebration of the Spidey Nerf: http://youtube.com/watch?v=USwLA-o5jBQ

Thanks for fixing the most boring character in this game. Safety is for kittens.

Unknown

I'm seeing mixed responses on the spidey changes. Some say he's useless, some say he's still good, and I for one agree that this change is hugely improved to balance things out. Although it is still possible with the right setup, no more easy perma-stun wins with a 5 in blue spider-man. I'm glad this is finally going to happen as it will make the game closer to how it is supposed to be played, with strategy. Now all I'm waiting for is the cmags change.

Unknown

That's it, I'm just going to stunlock everyone in Heavy Metal and Shield Training while I still can
Goodbye parker, was nice having you

Spoit

IceIX wrote:

DirigiblePilot wrote:

To clarify, I think the change is definitely fair, and that it was too powerful before. Essentially, this is my roundabout way of asking, "What is the new strategy for maximizing effectiveness of the ability?" And to me, it still seems like that best usage is to hoard it and rip out several stuns in a row.

P.S. Now that you have cut the generation of tiles' effectiveness by 3/5, was it really necessary to ALSO nerf the other two abilities, at least as much as was done?)

My own personal strategy with the new Spider-Man is to gain 7+ AP with another Blue match on the board and non-easily matchable yellows. Or if the opponent doesn't match Yellow then just having enough Blue to toss out a second stun quickly. That puts my Blue in a comfortable situation, provides a couple Web tiles for the other abilities to start doing their things soon if I want and makes the Protect tiles strong enough to be worth creating. As I'm working with the board at this point I play to protect those two Web tiles just like how I normally protect Strike tiles. Sometimes they get hit by cascades or the like but usually they stay fairly safe. That puts me in a position to match two Blue matches at some point and either start the stunlock train up or get some stronger healing in. 15 Blue AP comes nearly every battle when I'm looking for it, just as Thor will pretty well always be able to Call the Storm if that's what I want to do in the match.

Yeah, but call the storm has the insane 9 tile generation feeder power. And maybe the desert power too

Unknown

If they want to keep him like this, at least they should make his purple create protect web tiles...so they function as web tiles.

@Spoit...I'd wait for the mag nerf before doing that. You are better off throwing hp/iso at fury for a blue/yellow than cap though. As far as I am concerned, there are no stunners in the game anymore....except lvl 200+ venom lol.

@derigible ..New strat is to simply not use him. Until she is nerfed to oblivion, obw is a cheaper and more annoying on def option than spidey now by a lot. He is now a joke on def and on offense you are far and away better off using someone else. I would say he is very likely the worst 3*** in the game, lower than obw, and probably lower than ares and even probably thor/wolvie...you could argue storm even. Whomever said he was low 2** now is right. He basically has a higher healing less pve more expensive obw heal, slightly.better/different bullseye purp, and arguably the worst blue in the game. His use is as a character healer in prologue or maybe to throw into an easy match to heal with. Maybe that is the point though...if you can heal, you are suppose to effectively be useless in a normal fight? (In the case of obw, they never meant black to double.dip as I read and ap stealing happens to be somewhat op in general..so maybe that really is the point).


@chadds...it basically counts as "wear and tear" if you really wanted to compare it to a non-online actually tangible product. You bought it, got help from it, and bought it under the knowledge it could change at any time. Is it fair? Maybe not. But the purchase equates to a signature of the form. It's binding unless something illegal can be dug up about how it happened. Another reason online only purchases are a no go for me.

It's in everyone's best interest to drop spidey and move all further iso on the side to save for fury, who covers the same colors but much much better....you know...if you can ever get covers for him.

DirigiblePilot

IceIX wrote:

My own personal strategy with the new Spider-Man is to gain 7+ AP with another Blue match on the board and non-easily matchable yellows. Or if the opponent doesn't match Yellow then just having enough Blue to toss out a second stun quickly. That puts my Blue in a comfortable situation, provides a couple Web tiles for the other abilities to start doing their things soon if I want and makes the Protect tiles strong enough to be worth creating. As I'm working with the board at this point I play to protect those two Web tiles just like how I normally protect Strike tiles. Sometimes they get hit by cascades or the like but usually they stay fairly safe. That puts me in a position to match two Blue matches at some point and either start the stunlock train up or get some stronger healing in. 15 Blue AP comes nearly every battle when I'm looking for it, just as Thor will pretty well always be able to Call the Storm if that's what I want to do in the match.

Ok, that seems fair. It appears, then, that the use of his blue has been shifted to more of an entire strategy (instead of a casual "Oh whoops I win after three matches). Like you said, Call the Storm can be pulled off pretty regularly, but it is a strategy in and of itself that requires focusing almost solely on it- grab all the green as fast as possible to AoE for the win. So his blue is now "Grab all of the blue as fast as possible to stun, plus heal some and protect some."

If this is the case, then I surmise the intended goal for his old blue was "Have a use for that stray blue AP you pick up" but that it was exploited to take advantage of the low cost. If so, I see where the change came from, though I still maintain that the new purple and yellow are a bit too weak. At least the old surefire-win strategy was removed, and that was the most important part.

Ok, I just realized after typing that that I made it sound really confusing. The meaning I was trying to get across would be better represented if you switch that phrase in quotes with "Have a use" and the one with "Grab all." I could switch them, but that would basically require retyping the whole thing, which I am not exactly eager to do

Spoit

FWIW, I often have matches where the required character dies before I can get 2 blue matches with c.mags. Doubly so against the hood