*** Spider-Man (Classic) ***

Twysta

IceIX wrote:

Twysta wrote:

It now costs 15 blue AP and one purple match to make a 54 strength defense tile @ 141.

Err, 3 Web tiles on the board (15 Blue AP spent) would make a 210 strength Protect tile.

Oh, it does? My mistake. I misunderstood the numbers.
On another note Ice, as a highly respected member of MPQ, how do you feel about the changes?

Moral

Level 85 5/5: 1534 base healing + 619 with Web tiles = 2153 max healing
Compare to Black Widow (Original) max level - 1228 healing


9 blue AP for OBW
15 blue AP and 12 yellow AP for new Spidey.

OBW potentially steals blue.

Not seeing the bargain here.

Unknown

I'm sure there is a new spidey tourny around the corner once his changes are active. We will only know for sure how he plays at that time.

I never thought spidey was that great of a character outside of his exploits. Super heal and instant stunlock.

his stunlocking allowed you to beat PvE opponents that you had no business fighting because they were much stronger than you. Although fighting a match like this takes a really long time to win. He's kind of the 3* MStorm in this manner where your team of 1*s can take down a level 200 hulk.

The easy stunlock after a single blue match also gave him some defensive intimidation in PvP.

his healing allowed you to get around using health packs.

Outside of these exploits I don't think he was ever a 1st string hero. healing, stunlocking, and defense are abilities you should not use in PvE and he's too slow for PvP.

With the new changes, if you are forced to use him then I'm sure you can come up with a strategy, but are you going to prioritize his powers over tried and true A players? I wish he could have gotten a more radical design change in order to give him an unexpected boost that can give him a reason to be on your team. a lighter power passive webbing or heal might be interesting kind of like the falcon. Maybe add a little daredevil and if your opponent accidentally destroys a web tile, then they are stunned in addition to the normal stun.

The Hood is the perfect example of a character that you wouldn't expect to be a 1st stringer but he is deadly without any of his powers feeling like an exploit. OBW is another that is super tough without being a meat shield or dealing huge damage. Spidey should be this kind of character.

Unknown

Lol, now clearly visible — who plays smart, and who just mashin' buttons.

Your beloved Webhead is still OP with right team-up. Example, 5/5/2 IM40 or x/5/x Silver Magneto. But make a mass tinykittystorm is much easy, than start think better, aga?

Unknown

Thinking some more about this. The question is, where is spidey the best solution? Given a PvP or PvE situation, can you pair spidey with someone and have that be the best team for a tournament (not his own)?

Not "I can use him if I feel like changing it up", but where in the game is spidey the best choice over any other hero in your roster.

Twysta

Moral wrote:

Level 85 5/5: 1534 base healing + 619 with Web tiles = 2153 max healing

Actually you're missing out on 56 more levels to increase his base healing to 1534...
I assume at level 85 he'd do about 1k? Which probably looks to be relatively similar to OBW.

Unknown

Bagnarok'd. Good riddance, sick of the leeching teams using Spiderman + MN Magneto to get the slowest wins in the world and kill your points in PvP matches.

Unknown

Seems like he needs a Scarlet Spider or Venom (Eddie Brock) 3* to pair up with on Web Tiles.

He reminds me of Thor/BP/GSBW now, "get to 1X AP and win the match," the difference being that those characters can do that if they're the last man standing... Spidey at 3 web tiles makes you pretty much impervious in three different ways, but you need someone else alive to deliver the kill.

Unknown

bonfire01 wrote:

Only if that situation is prologue healing. With his new skills he's almost completely useless unless you have somehow got a spidey and pretty much nothing else in the way of 3* heroes. He does no damage... nothing.... zero and his control abilities are now weaker than heroes that do damage. Even OBW offers some strike tile synergy with espionage, spidey offers nothing at all. LITERALLY the best thing you could say about him now is that yellow is a somewhat rarely used color by 3* heroes but that's pretty much it.

If you can't figure out how to use him, then that's entirely your problem.

Moral

Twysta wrote:

Moral wrote:

Level 85 5/5: 1534 base healing + 619 with Web tiles = 2153 max healing

Actually you're missing out on 56 more levels to increase his base healing to 1534...
I assume at level 85 he'd do about 1k? Which probably looks to be relatively similar to OBW.

We can go there.

Max level 141 5/5: Heals for 2314 with an additional 934 with 3 Web tiles.[

1 Spidey heal at 141 is 3248 using 27 total ap.

OBW 1128 per heal at 9 AP. With possible espionage and recon.

It's disappointing.

IceIX

Twysta wrote:

Oh, it does? My mistake. I misunderstood the numbers.
On another note Ice, as a highly respected member of MPQ, how do you feel about the changes?

No problem on the Web tile counter, sorted.

My opinion on the changes for Spider-Man?

<SpeakingPurelyAsAPlayer>
He's different than before in the way that Thor is different. He wasn't before and still is not a Top 3-5 contender for my team though, so take that as you will.

His heal is far more usable for what I use it for and provides a more steady source of HP. Before I had to actively save up a bunch of Yellow and Blue, then fire off a ton of webs, then use the Yellow. Now I can either use the Yellow as it comes or manage my webs on the board as they come. To me, it's freeing. I disliked the ritual of the 5-6 stun animations per Web Bandage from before. Sure, you don't get 10K healing at max level anymore, but thinking about the character, Spider-Man was never an accomplished medic. It's still a strong heal that's annoying as heck when the enemy gets it off.

For the Blue, it's a weird situation since it completely changes how I approached its use. It used to be 2 matches leading to a spate of stuns. Protecting Web tiles wasn't a thing since I could just make more. Now I need to protect them like I do Strike/Protect tiles since their existence is actually something I need to take into account. Once I got over that hump, the ability felt more useful as what it was originally envisioned to be: An OHTINYKITTY button that stops Countdowns that turns into something more powerful as its used. Now I go from a stun to hold off an ability use for a turn or two into full on stunlock mode against the last enemy that's left. It's a weird side shift in mindset. It's *definitely* a nerf to its effectiveness, but it was single handedly breaking almost every fight in the game, especially with Boosts, so... This one still feels pretty useful once you get in the rhythm of it.

Purple is a nerf to total effectiveness with the drop from 5 max Web tiles to 3, but doesn't really make a difference in practice once you get the Blue rolling and change that mindset. It starts out horrible with an underpowered Protect tile. But it's supposed to since the idea is that you're throwing out Web tiles when you can. So you shouldn't be "settling" for a low powered Protect tile. 54 is pretty much the "base" you should be grabbing from these at max level with 110s what you run into within the first 10 turns or so. Being able to generate 216-440 Protect points from a *Passive* once you get used to the usage patterns of his Blue is pretty great. There are a couple people that were focusing on this more than the Yellow that I use more often and he can still be decidedly deadly/annoying if you can swing his 210s out.

So overall? Not bad changes. They keep the flavor of the abilities without any total changes to them, take down his power level to levels where he isn't a web based demi-god, and keep his niche useful for those that adapt to the play style.
</SpeakingPurelyAsAPlayer>

Unknown

gamar wrote:

Seems like he needs a Scarlet Spider or Venom (Eddie Brock) 3* to pair up with on Web Tiles.

He reminds me of Thor/BP/GSBW now, "get to 1X AP and win the match," the difference being that those characters can do that if they're the last man standing... Spidey at 3 web tiles makes you pretty much impervious in three different ways, but you need someone else alive to deliver the kill.

LMAO 3 web tiles makes you impervious? Really? You stun for 3 turns in then next turn the target you stunned first will wake up so you just need to get 5 blue AP EVERY turn.. In which reality does that make you impervious? The reality where you get blue 5 matches every turn?

@IceX I can only assume you only have 3-5 heroes in your roster is he's a top 3-5 contender for any circumstance as he's going to be post nerf.... well i'll stretch to 7 heroes if you have rags and loki but even that's debatable

Spoit

I guess we'll see what it actually hits, but I'm skeptical of being able to maintain more than half your matches being blue for any reasonable amount of time, much less getting to 15 to make that possible in the first place

And that's just against a single target

Twysta

It'll definitely be interesting come Hero LR's to see how he plays.
Following IceIX's comment I reserve the rest of my judgement for when the changes occur. Maybe the numbers look worse than it is and he might play okay...

Unknown

bonfire01 wrote:

gamar wrote:

Seems like he needs a Scarlet Spider or Venom (Eddie Brock) 3* to pair up with on Web Tiles.

He reminds me of Thor/BP/GSBW now, "get to 1X AP and win the match," the difference being that those characters can do that if they're the last man standing... Spidey at 3 web tiles makes you pretty much impervious in three different ways, but you need someone else alive to deliver the kill.

LMAO 3 web tiles makes you impervious? Really? You stun for 3 turns in then next turn the target you stunned first will wake up so you just need to get 5 blue AP EVERY turn.. In which reality does that make you impervious? The reality where you get blue 5 matches every turn?

The reality where I have 3 strength 210 protect tiles, can heal my entire team for 2,000 HP if I need to, and am using my stuns simply to prevent the opponent from using a "big" ability like CTS it has the AP for because I don't care about anything else he does?

Cragger

At least I'll make it through Season 1 with Spidey on my main roster. Had they nerfed him mid-season, I'd have a hard time logging back in. The comment is not from an OP perspective, but from a time-investment for a favorite and flavorful character in a game I like quite a bit.

Unknown

Ice, any chance you have what might be a very random seeming number to have..but...do you have the average ap earned per a match?

This would help further the point as to why Spiderman is so...not good now. I would GUESS its something like (In My head I am thinking 15 cots+12thunder+10 translocation+10 random as a mildly fast match) so maybe 40-70 ap required on average (high lvl play)? So given that, Spiderman's set up requires him to have about 25 blue to really be a threat. That 25 blue gives, at best, +1+2+3+3+3 or 12 turns of stun. That's enough to actually stunlock 2 ppl. That 25 hp could give you, for some other examples, 3 uses of thor's rather mediocre red, with enough yellow placed to probably add +6 yellow. Using some stronger moves, 9+14 will let you use berserker followed by tbti...enough to easily wipe 1 1/2 character minimum. Cots+translocation will let you do likely around 7.5+5k damage...12.5k damage. What's the point of stunning when you could have used the same ap to kill the character you were stunning by then?

Also, 15 blue to teams stun effectively for one turn is pretty weak without some damage or something added onto it. @25 ap, that means in the same time, you have +25 ap to do damage. It just...doesn't add up. His nerf would be fine if everyone did damage Like thor's red, but almost nobody is that weak outside of 2**.

I feel what happened is, before, his ability was tuned assume 3 characters were alive at all times. His 2 ap stun wasn't that easy to keep up with 3 characters and wasnt so bad imo...the issue was that when even one got down, the ratio exponentially increased. Here, I feel you guys balanced him assuming what he can do to a single character, and thusly where before he was too strong against 1 and about where he should be vs 3, now he is about where he should be vs. 1, and waaay underpowered vs. 3.

I'd never waste a roster spot on him in a match, but if he was...let's say required...and I had no other good uses for blue I guessthe best way to use him would be to ONLY use him when the enemy had 1 character left. The while reason to stun imo is to stop them from matching, his new setup only can really do that svs. 1 character.

As such, hopefully you guys start adding some fun 3v1 style matches...like the rag node in prologue (pre nerf) except with more flare to it. Maybe devil dino style character that have 1-2 abilities that are op or something or do something cool and outthere. Then and only then would spidey have a use via his blue. Until then, his blue just isn't strong enough to warrant use. If you are down to only 1 left, the only time I think his blue is worthwhile, you probably could have killed them with the 15-30 ap you wasted getting blue.

Unknown

His stun now is pretty much worthless. It's too costly for what it does.

Where he *might* be useful now is for damage mitigation. The only thing that remotely looks good is his purple, which isn't even as good as it was before. Still, you do have the potential of putting out three 210 def tiles, where even 1 or 2 def tiles would go a long way in mitigating match damage.

His yellow is still decent for heals as well, especially in light of the fact that he's the only 3* that can heal.

Call me crazy but I'm thinking maybe going 5/3/5 with him, forget about stunning, and just focus on def tiles and heals for him, since those are his two "strong" suits.

Unknown

Too soon to tell until we get to play with him, but he looks terrible.
I'm not sure how blue works based on the wording. Does it cap at 2-3 stun?

Building a team around Spider Man is just asking for hour long games. He shouldnt have anything built around him. He's support.

Defensive SpiderMan was ok before but now defensive SM looks like trash, with lower protect, bad stun, and higher heal cost for less max.
Offense is still slow, but higher cost stun means terrible on offense.

His web tile generation was severly hit so every move was hit + the nerf.

Good luck getting the web tiles to permastun or heal effectively.
I was hoping purple would generate web tiles, but now you need 15 blue to get 3 web tiles which get eaten by yellow and matches.

Permastun isn't going to happen. 5 cost for 1 turn stun? 15 to stun the team for 6 turns overall. 1/2/3 stun... No way you get enough to permastun. Even vs. one hero its overpriced.

BagMan is looking so much better.

Unknown

gamar wrote:

bonfire01 wrote:

gamar wrote:

Seems like he needs a Scarlet Spider or Venom (Eddie Brock) 3* to pair up with on Web Tiles.

He reminds me of Thor/BP/GSBW now, "get to 1X AP and win the match," the difference being that those characters can do that if they're the last man standing... Spidey at 3 web tiles makes you pretty much impervious in three different ways, but you need someone else alive to deliver the kill.

LMAO 3 web tiles makes you impervious? Really? You stun for 3 turns in then next turn the target you stunned first will wake up so you just need to get 5 blue AP EVERY turn.. In which reality does that make you impervious? The reality where you get blue 5 matches every turn?

The reality where I have 3 strength 210 protect tiles, can heal my entire team for 2,000 HP if I need to, and am using my stuns simply to prevent the opponent from using a "big" ability like CTS it has the AP for because I don't care about anything else he does?

If 3 210 protect tiles was that great then why aren't ppl breaking out IW to make a 600+ protect tile off one ability? How are you stopping tiles getting matched? Also if you heal those tiles go poof and you need to find 15 blue AP again. This also relies on you NOT making any purple matches before you get your 3 web tiles out since they won't overwrite unless you're guaranteeing you can match them away and you're going 5 yellow 5 purple so your stuns are terrible...

It doesn't even come close to making you impervious and takes so ridiculously long to ramp up unless you plan to run MMN as well but that means you've already made all your protect tiles on 0-1 web tiles just to get the AP to make your 3 web tiles. Or we can go IM40 to make blue but then there went all your yellows for the heal.... There is pretty much no situation at all where the new version of spidey is a good fit for anything because his skills are pretty terrible. A 9 cost blue from a 1* hero has more turns of total stunning than 15 AP spent by Spiderman... even when he has 3 webs on board it's still only 6 turns of stunning for 10 AP and widows sting is 7 for 9 and almost as good at stunlocking 1 starget.

The idea that a hero is "good" if you can get 15 blue AP THEN make 3 purple matches and have 12 yellow AP on hand all of which does no damage at all to supply protect tiles which you then have to hope don't get including by your hand as your making a purple match for the next tile to generate is just insane. He has been nerfed to hell and serves little if any purpose.

ZenBrillig wrote:

If you can't figure out how to use him, then that's entirely your problem.

Please enlighten me...