*** Spider-Man (Classic) ***

Unknown

champion9782 wrote:

Gapsule wrote:

Too soon to tell until we get to play with him, but he looks terrible.
I'm not sure how blue works based on the wording. Does it cap at 2-3 stun?


Permastun isn't going to happen. 5 cost for 1 turn stun? 15 to stun the team for 6 turns overall. 1/2/3 stun... No way you get enough to permastun. Even vs. one hero its overpriced.

BagMan is looking so much better.

Seriously for 9 blues I can stun the whole team for 1 turn and my target for 5 turns.... With a level 40. They should of added damage to the blue, that can double and triple with each web.

SERIOUSLY they made him 1* material.

The game doesn't work such that increasing rarity implies more powerful abilities. Juggernaut's Headbutt is one of the most devastating when used by an equal level PvE opponents. Lightning Strike and Mistress of the Storm are also top tier abilities that are available to 1* characters that are very unlikely to be seen on the high end because they'd be close to game breaking if usable on a character with more than about 1500 HP. There's nothing wrong with Widow's Sting being the most powerful stun in the game just because it's a 1* ability.

summerlui

I think it would be better if the blue ability could stun for 2 turns as a base instead of 1 turn.

Unknown

summerlui wrote:

I think it would be better if the blue ability could stun for 2 turns as a base instead of 1 turn.

That seems like something for level 4 or 5 upgrade since there's a tendency to tie key features of a skill to the upgrade levels where you've to actually make a choice.

scottee

I like the changes.

The main thing is it takes away the ability to easily permastun an entire team. You can still permastun a single character.

I think Ice explained it well. But it just takes more thinking to use him than it did before. Actually protect my tiles from getting matched? Too much thinking for some. People are used to brainless button mashing abilities. The most puzzle strategy most can handle is "use pun's green before black, not after".

Yes it's a nerf. But people are still evaluating in the old mindset of, save up enough blue to permastun team, then fire off heal. Yes it takes 15 blue to fire off three web tiles. Guess what? You don't have to make them all on the same turn. You can put out two, and then heal without killing the web tiles, and generate strong but not maxed protect tiles from a PASSIVE. You can still use that purple AP on someone else's ability.

I think they basically put Spidey effectiveness out of the comprehension range of the masses.

No, he's not as good as before. He's not supposed to be. But he does the support role, and still does it well. He's far better to run with a 141 team than OBW. But hey, you can just wait to see him in action if you don't understand how to use him yet.

Spoit

OBW is probably better at stopping attacks.

Like I said before, I'm skeptical of the ability to stunlock even a single character, even with 3 web tiles already out. You have to average more than a blue match every other match to do so

Unknown

The stun ability is no good anymore. I think the devs seriously overvalue what a 1-turn stun of ONE opposing character is worth. The time you spend making matches for the stun ability is time you're not making matches for actual damage, and since it doesn't in most circumstances prevent the opponent making a match, all that effort just delays one character using an ability that turn (while you've delayed yourself several terms by chasing blues instead of a match that will power a real ability).

Spidey stunlock was good only because it was so undercosted and could get such long stuns for the cost so you spent less time building the AP for the stuns than you set back the opponent.

The stunlock had to go for balance, but this is way too far the other way if you want a stun character to be viable. Using Spidey's blue ability now will be disadvantaging yourself. Just give him something functionally similar to Modern Widow's ability or Classic Storm's ability rather than this.

Unknown

Just a random comparison as a Spidey fan excited to use the new Daken:

Spidey: 2k team heal for 12 yellow AP.
Daken: 500 self-heal per turn for free if enough blue tiles on board.

Spidey: 1-3 turns of stun for 5 blue AP.
Daken: 600-2k damage for 5 blue AP.

Spidey: 20-200 strength protect tile if allies match purple. Max 3.
Daken: 50×2 strength strike tiles if either team matches green. Unlimited.

franckynight

scottee wrote:

I like the changes.

The main thing is it takes away the ability to easily permastun an entire team. You can still permastun a single character.

I think Ice explained it well. But it just takes more thinking to use him than it did before. Actually protect my tiles from getting matched? Too much thinking for some. People are used to brainless button mashing abilities. The most puzzle strategy most can handle is "use pun's green before black, not after".

Yes it's a nerf. But people are still evaluating in the old mindset of, save up enough blue to permastun team, then fire off heal. Yes it takes 15 blue to fire off three web tiles. Guess what? You don't have to make them all on the same turn. You can put out two, and then heal without killing the web tiles, and generate strong but not maxed protect tiles from a PASSIVE. You can still use that purple AP on someone else's ability.

I think they basically put Spidey effectiveness out of the comprehension range of the masses.
No, he's not as good as before. He's not supposed to be. But he does the support role, and still does it well. He's far better to run with a 141 team than OBW. But hey, you can just wait to see him in action if you don't understand how to use him yet.

Well.. Changes make him pretty useless from a pvp perspective.. Ppl used him cause they gave them the upper hands on any team.. 12 blue.. Gm over.. In pvp, in this time and age where speed and effectiveness are the most sought after abilities, spidey is now devoided from any interest.. Mb to make some finesse in pve why not.. But if you want to compete times where spidey was the ultimate asset is over..

scottee

Part of the value of the blue ability isn't just the stun, but also the creation of a web tile. I know people basically viewed this as free before, but that was part of his problem that needed fixing.

It also makes stuns more balanced, as they are in other characters. The only other team stuns in the game were Venom and MBW, and they were both only for 1 turn. Team permastun should have never been in the game.

But that doesn't make short stuns useless. Stun Hulk one turn, fire off three abilities even though you can't kill him yet, avoid anger. Stun Daken for two turns, make a couple green matches, avoid strike tiles. Stuns aren't supposed to be a game saving panic button, "Ooops, I wasn't paying attention and let Thor have 14 green, I'll just level let him do anything for the rest of the match."

And the protect tiles from a passive are still underrated. They're stronger than Bullseye's by a lot. And as a passive, you STILL GET TO USE THE AP. Hmm, I don't take any more match damage AND I get to Translocate, or generate Sniper green, or use some other strong 2* ability.

No he's not the same. But his playstyle and strategy haven't even been tried yet, let alone optimized.

scottee

franckynight wrote:

But if you want to compete times where spidey was the ultimate asset is over..

This is true and was definitely supposed to be the point. In what imagination is Spiderman the most powerful hero in the Marvel Universe?

Pre-change, the only decision people had to make with him was, do I use the slow autowin character, or do I not because I don't want to be someone who uses the autowin character?

franckynight

scottee wrote:

franckynight wrote:

But if you want to compete times where spidey was the ultimate asset is over..

This is true and was definitely supposed to be the point. In what imagination is Spiderman the most powerful hero in the Marvel Universe?

Pre-change, the only decision people had to make with him was, do I use the slow autowin character, or do I not because I don't want to be someone who uses the autowin character?

I m genuinely happy with the nerf.. Dont misunderstand me.. He was too much of a crutch for weàker rosters.. The nerf will just shift people towards another op char.. Not instill new strategic ploy..

Unknown

Personally i don't see the differents between stunlocking a team for 12 blue. Or killing them with 11purple (you know who). Of course there are a couple of chars that can do that. So people will propably switch to them more. Nerfing one guy seems to unbalance the other OP characters.

Anyway. My question is..
What do get back from this nerf?? The wolvie nerf got us a higher sell back. But this is a 3*..
It seems unlikely that we will be able to respec spidey since the last 7 pvp rewards were loki and ragnarok...

Unknown

tl:dr spiderman has been relegated to garbage tier.

lazy daken/lazy thor is the new 2man combo. get used to it.

Unknown

Clintman wrote:

Easy now Bonfire01, Zen does not make constructive comments.

Quoting for evidence. And irony.

GumisK

Wow, Spidey's so utterly useless now I'm lost for words. I know some of ou are trying to find positives here, but it seems pointless. My first thought after reading the changes was: "he's too tinykitty slow for me". Current metagame promotes fast gameplay. In order to use the "new and improved" Spider-Man you need plenty of time, and nearly unlimited patience. Until I get a solid base of blue AP, I'm gonna get beaten to a pulp, and Spidey will probably be dead before he can make any impact. I can't see myself playing him anywhere, except the hopefully rare occasion of a 350-level Juggs or Daken with some blue AP boosts to help me out.

over_clocked

How many people will delay their update so as to have a usable Spidey some time more?
No wait I know this one - even if you're in the middle of a match you'll be thrown out and forced to update. Because at least then Spidey would go out with a bang.

Unknown

GumisK wrote:

Wow, Spidey's so utterly useless now I'm lost for words. I know some of ou are trying to find positives here, but it seems pointless. My first thought after reading the changes was: "he's too tinykitty slow for me". Current metagame promotes fast gameplay. In order to use the "new and improved" Spider-Man you need plenty of time, and nearly unlimited patience. Until I get a solid base of blue AP, I'm gonna get beaten to a pulp, and Spidey will probably be dead before he can make any impact. I can't see myself playing him anywhere, except the hopefully rare occasion of a 350-level Juggs or Daken with some blue AP boosts to help me out.

Fast gameplay basically means Magneto, who is probably next on the balance list.

Assuming Magneto eventually becomes balanced, the next best speed enabler is likely OBW (The Hood steals more AP over a long game but random AP steal can hardly be relied on to accelerate your game for quick wins) and it seems like Daken is tailored to kill her very fast (2 green followed by 2 blue matches with a maxed Chemical Reaction should come close to taking her out). After that you got The Hood, but you're likely already slowing down at this point since The Hood simply can't be relied on to steal what you need in a very short game.

Unknown

locked wrote:

How many people will delay their update so as to have a usable Spidey some time more?
No wait I know this one - even if you're in the middle of a match you'll be thrown out and forced to update. Because at least then Spidey would go out with a bang.

Heeelllll no. Insta update. The sooner those enemy spidey SUPER suck, the better (he wasn't scary before, but he could get annoying if u got unlucky).

@phantron, you are missing patch. Patch>mags for speed.

over_clocked

Well, Magneto nerf would incidentally nerf Patch slightly.

soenottelling, you are forgetting that enemy Spideys will still 2AP dominate you

Unknown

soenottelling wrote:

locked wrote:

How many people will delay their update so as to have a usable Spidey some time more?
No wait I know this one - even if you're in the middle of a match you'll be thrown out and forced to update. Because at least then Spidey would go out with a bang.

Heeelllll no. Insta update. The sooner those enemy spidey SUPER suck, the better (he wasn't scary before, but he could get annoying if u got unlucky).

@phantron, you are missing patch. Patch>mags for speed.

Depends on if you want speed safely or not. Without Magneto/Spiderman you're not getting safe speedy wins from Patch. Patch + Hulk is amazingly fast, but it can backfire in your face and is certainly very health pack intensive, so I think that speed is justified and certainly not sustainable.