*** Spider-Man (Classic) ***

Unknown

Modern Storm's green is flat out better than classic Storm's too. 1*s tend to have overpowered abilities, but their limiting factor is the level cap.

That's also why some dark avengers are a big pain when given bonus levels.

Unknown

Currently, Spidey has 1 skill that creates and then benefits from web tiles (blue), 1 skill that benefits from web tiles(purple), and 1 skill that benefits and consumes web tiles (yellow). Perhaps what is needed is a balancing of creating webs vs. consuming them. I would rather see faster tile creation but his abilities actually consume them.

Changes
Change 1: The purple passive also places a web tile whenever a purple skill is matched.
Change 2: All Tied Up places a web tile and then stuns an opponent equal to the number of web tiles on the board. Then if there are 3 or more web tiles, remove all web tiles. Perhaps the base blue skill could cost 5 and consume if 2 or more web tiles, and then upgrades would make it cost 3 or 2 and allow for more webs on the board.

This change gives more consistent web tile generation while reducing his dependency on blue to generate web tiles. His purple purposefully doesn't check for web tiles, thus allowing him to get a stun over 3 turns with a bit of patience. However, b/c ATU now sometimes consumes web tiles, it creates a player decision point b/w using his stun or his healing.

The idea here is that perma-stun-lock should not be a consistently viable strategy in most every match (my personal game design thoughts). However, I feel this design lets you get a similar burst effect. Stockpiling 6 or 9 blues and then making some well-timed purple matches would allow you to lock 2 opponents down (and most people don't start perma-stun-locking until after 1 opponent is down anyway).

Edit: Whipped up a quick ability chart to highlight what I was thinking:
All Tied Up - Blue 6 AP
Spider-Man wraps up the target in webbing, adding a new Yellow Web tile to the board and then stunning the enemy for 1 turn for each Web tile on the board (to a maximum of 5 turns). The web tiles are then consumed if there are 2 or more web tiles in play
Level Upgrades

Level 2: Costs 1 AP less.
Level 3: Consumes web tiles if there are 3 or more web tiles on the board.
Level 4: Costs 1 AP less.
Level 5: Costs 1 AP less. Consumes web tiles if there are 4 or more web tiles on the board.

Spider-Sense - Purple Passive
(PASSIVE) Spider-Man's senses tingle and he moves to protect his team. If there aren't any friendly Purple Protect tiles, he creates one and places 1 yellow web tile when his team matches Purple tiles. New Protect tile Strength is based on the number of Web tiles in play.
Level Upgrades

Level 2: Creates up to 2 Purple Protect tiles.
Level 3: Increases base Protect Strength by 25%
Level 4: Creates up to 3 Purple Protect tiles.
Level 5: Increases base Protect Strength by 25%. Places 2 yellow web tiles.

This quick chart ends up increasing blue by 1 AP but doesn't consume the web tiles until 4 are out. To make 5 purple a viable skill choice, I thought that placing 2 web tiles would be pretty awesome. Would make a 5/3/5 a not-unusable build. His blue would cost 5 but could still throw out the long-term stun occasionally based on your purple matches.

Unknown

Although I tend to agree that Spidey's blue is a "problem" for others... It is also in "spidey nature".

The Wolvie nerf was that he was being used as a tank. And that was not in his nature.

Rag was also being used as a tank with his 2 red AP, but more like an "Abrams".

Thor... Thor combined with Wolvie was a lethal combo. So everybody's team comprised of this.

* * * *
That being said.

In the current round - hard mode - 1000 ISO fight... Spidey, Punisher and (insert name here) because I am having my morning coffee and not in front of my phone... All level 230... You need some serious DPS to get them down FAST. Else, you screwed. I was lucky enough to inch out a victory in that fight once so far. I am not looking forward to going it again.

Spidey however, on a PVE scale - especially when going up against all 230's is probably your most valuable asset.

Maggia Sniper, Hammer Pyro and Hammer Rocketeer (all level 230), all countdown tiles on the board and no hope of matching them all in time will make short work of ANY strong DPS team in no time. If you take out the sniper tile to not get 1 shot (1 toon) - but get hit with a rocket or flaethrower; you run the possibility of losing all 3... And that's game...

Spidey blue could go up by 1 AP to 3 and would still run reasonably. But spiderman being weak at dishing out DPS remains within the spirit of the character. He is a support toon, that's his role and he is not confused about it.

I think a spidey nerf will hurt more than it will help.

That's my 2 cents on the issue.

IceIX

Consolidating the threads. We know you want to talk about all this. Let's use one thread instead of spreading it over 5. Go here: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=5307

IceIX

Consolidating the threads. We know you want to talk about all this. Let's use one thread instead of spreading it over 5. Go here: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=5307

Unknown

I'm in a fight where opposing spider-man is using only 1 blue AP to cast his stun. First time I see this...

unimatrix

Maybe he's with some goons who generate blue AP.

Moral

Or The Hood is stealing on the front end.

Edit: if you watch the enemy AP, it ticks down at the end of their turn when Hood steals. Hood's power procs at the end of the opposing team's turn.

Unknown

Moral wrote:

Or The Hood is stealing on the front end.

Edit: if you watch the enemy AP, it ticks down at the end of their turn when Hood steals. Hood's power procs at the end of the opposing team's turn.

That must be it then.

Unknown

Microtom wrote:

Moral wrote:

Or The Hood is stealing on the front end.

Edit: if you watch the enemy AP, it ticks down at the end of their turn when Hood steals. Hood's power procs at the end of the opposing team's turn.

That must be it then.

I just saw this happen in a tourney battle. My OBW espionaged a blue, bringing the other team's AP down to 1, but Spiderman stunned me anyway. The Hood had stolen a blue back. The game is slow to update the AI's AP and with all the espionages and dormammu's flying around it's hard to keep track.

Unknown

After having my buffed Wolverine stun locked 1Vs1 against a 2AP Spidey, I thought this might be a decent idea for his perms stun lock.

The flavor behind Spider-Mans All Tied Up is he stuns equal to the web tiles in play, so what if when any player matches a yellow web tile, all stunned characters are unstunned?

Unknown

OhLookItsRaab wrote:

After having my buffed Wolverine stun locked 1Vs1 against a 2AP Spidey, I thought this might be a decent idea for his perms stun lock.

The flavor behind Spider-Mans All Tied Up is he stuns equal to the web tiles in play, so what if when any player matches a yellow web tile, all stunned characters are unstunned?

Maybe release ALL characters stunned at lower levels (1 to 3) of Spidey's blue and at level 4 and 5 release one character whenever a web tile is eliminated.

Good idea. I like it. It is a very soft nerf. I still feel like the 2 AP cost is the real issue.

Maybe add, for each web tile on the board stun consumes X AP from random colour. So if 2 web tiles are already present stun will cost 2 Blue and 2 random. That way chain stunning become more costly.

Unknown

Milkrain wrote:

OhLookItsRaab wrote:

After having my buffed Wolverine stun locked 1Vs1 against a 2AP Spidey, I thought this might be a decent idea for his perms stun lock.

The flavor behind Spider-Mans All Tied Up is he stuns equal to the web tiles in play, so what if when any player matches a yellow web tile, all stunned characters are unstunned?

Maybe release ALL characters stunned at lower levels (1 to 3) of Spidey's blue and at level 4 and 5 release one character whenever a web tile is eliminated.

Good idea. I like it. It is a very soft nerf. I still feel like the 2 AP cost is the real issue.

Maybe add, for each web tile on the board stun consumes X AP from random colour. So if 2 web tiles are already present stun will cost 2 Blue and 2 random. That way chain stunning become more costly.

The random AP consumption is the best idea I have heard yet. I think the thing most people forget is that with spidey stunning is essentially what he does. Take away shooting web and you got a smart guy with super human strength, agility and spider sense. I think if they do nerf his stun they will need to rework his spider sense and maybe even his heal since essentially all his abilities are based on web tiles.

Another idea is have his passive purple create a web and protect tile and increase his stun to 4 AP.

Dormammu

If they change Spider-Man my guess is that they'll make his blue cost at least 6AP. That seems to be the new floor for the cost of an ability.

Unknown

Dormammu wrote:

If they change Spider-Man my guess is that they'll make his blue cost at least 6AP. That seems to be the new floor for the cost of an ability.

I would say the floor is 5AP given Human Torch's green. That said I think if they increase his blue cast cost to anything above 4AP he will esentialy become unused. At 4 AP you need a little bit of luck and 20 Blue AP to stun lock. There are a lot of characters that can win a game out right at 20AP. Lazy Cap with 20 red AP thats game, Lazy Thor with 20 green AP thats game, CMags with 20 purple AP thats game, BP 20 black AP thats game, etc. Given that at cost of 6AP your talking about 30 AP to stunlock and you will definetly win with any number of characters and 30AP of a chosen color. Also take into consideration that certian colors are way easier to generate. IE green which can be recieved by 2 enviomental tile types, Hulks Anger, Thors Yellow, BWGS purple, IM40's recharge, etc. Where as blue you have IM40s recharge and MMN's purple. Given that who would pick the slow win of a stunlock over the fast win of any of the others mentioned above.

jojeda654

Or how about every time a web tile is removed, any stun effects are reduced by 1 turn.

Dormammu

Rorex wrote:

Dormammu wrote:

If they change Spider-Man my guess is that they'll make his blue cost at least 6AP. That seems to be the new floor for the cost of an ability.

I would say the floor is 5AP given Human Torch's green. That said I think if they increase his blue cast cost to anything above 4AP he will esentialy become unused. At 4 AP you need a little bit of luck and 20 Blue AP to stun lock. There are a lot of characters that can win a game out right at 20AP. Lazy Cap with 20 red AP thats game, Lazy Thor with 20 green AP thats game, CMags with 20 purple AP thats game, BP 20 black AP thats game, etc. Given that at cost of 6AP your talking about 30 AP to stunlock and you will definetly win with any number of characters and 30AP of a chosen color. Also take into consideration that certian colors are way easier to generate. IE green which can be recieved by 2 enviomental tile types, Hulks Anger, Thors Yellow, BWGS purple, IM40's recharge, etc. Where as blue you have IM40s recharge and MMN's purple. Given that who would pick the slow win of a stunlock over the fast win of any of the others mentioned above.

Good point on Human Torch having a cost of 5. That's actually encouraging, I don't like having a floor.

As for Spidey's blue, who's to say the result would be the same for 6AP? Maybe for 6AP he stuns the whole team, or the number of rounds increases, or the number of web tiles increase, etc...

Unknown

EDIT: An updated version of this post/power is below.

I'd like to participate:

Level 1: Costs 4ap + 1 ap for each web tile on the board. Stuns the target for 1 turn + 1 turn for each web tile on the board (to a maximum of 4 turns). Converts a standard yellow tile to a web tile.
Level 2: Converts a standard blue tile to a blue protect tile of strength x.
Level 3: Stuns enemy team.
Level 4: Increases blue protect tile strength to x+y.
Level 5: Base cost is reduced to 3ap.

It's been made clear to me I have no sense of balance as far as powers go but I like coming up with them.

This keeps him as a support/defensive character and gives him three skills that are affected by his level.

At level 5 a one turn team stun costs 3ap, a two turn team stun costs 4ap, three turns for 5ap, 4 turns for 6ap, and so on. But you have to keep the web tiles on the board and if you're matching that much blue you're probably destroying the proposed protect tiles.

Boosts are a problem here, starting with +6 blue ap you can stun the team for 1, make a blue match, stun the team for 2, make a blue match, stun the team for 3. From there you'd need 2 blue matches to stun again (match 4s and 5s would only work if one or more of the web tiles had been destroyed at some point).

I think considering what Spidey can do now with 6 blue ap that is not such a huge difference, and it's still dependent on the board. And with the stun maxed at 4 at some point you need to start collecting other ap anyway.

Nice synergy with (an under-leveled) Venom is maintained.

Not capping the cost of the power is intentional. It doesn't make much sense thematically but it does give you something to think about as far as board control is concerned.

What do you all think? Too over powered? Makes him a useless character? Adding more protect tiles is lazy (I swear I'm trying to lose weight)? Some glaring flaw I've obviously overlooked (likely)? That didn't change a damn thing, stop wasting our time?

The boosters are the main problem I see, what say ye?

Unknown

Dormammu wrote:

Rorex wrote:

Dormammu wrote:

If they change Spider-Man my guess is that they'll make his blue cost at least 6AP. That seems to be the new floor for the cost of an ability.

I would say the floor is 5AP given Human Torch's green. That said I think if they increase his blue cast cost to anything above 4AP he will esentialy become unused. At 4 AP you need a little bit of luck and 20 Blue AP to stun lock. There are a lot of characters that can win a game out right at 20AP. Lazy Cap with 20 red AP thats game, Lazy Thor with 20 green AP thats game, CMags with 20 purple AP thats game, BP 20 black AP thats game, etc. Given that at cost of 6AP your talking about 30 AP to stunlock and you will definetly win with any number of characters and 30AP of a chosen color. Also take into consideration that certian colors are way easier to generate. IE green which can be recieved by 2 enviomental tile types, Hulks Anger, Thors Yellow, BWGS purple, IM40's recharge, etc. Where as blue you have IM40s recharge and MMN's purple. Given that who would pick the slow win of a stunlock over the fast win of any of the others mentioned above.

Good point on Human Torch having a cost of 5. That's actually encouraging, I don't like having a floor.

As for Spidey's blue, who's to say the result would be the same for 6AP? Maybe for 6AP he stuns the whole team, or the number of rounds increases, or the number of web tiles increase, etc...

Fair Enough. As long as they adjust the ability as well as the cost Spidey would still be viable. In fact a whole team stun makes more sense.

Unknown

beezer37_84 wrote:

I'd like to participate:

Level 1: Costs 4ap + 1 ap for each web tile on the board (maximum cost 7ap). Stuns the target for 1 turn + 1 turn for each web tile on the board (to a maximum of 4 turns). Converts a standard yellow tile to a web tile.
Level 2: Converts a standard blue tile to a blue protect tile of strength x.
Level 3: Stuns enemy team.
Level 4: Increases blue protect tile strength to x+y.
Level 5: Base cost is reduced to 3ap (maximum cost of 6ap).

It's been made clear to me I have no sense of balance as far as powers go but I like coming up with them.

This keeps him as a support/defensive character and gives him three skills that are affected by his level.

At level 5 a one turn team stun costs 3ap, a two turn team stun costs 4ap, three turns for 5ap, 4 turns for 6ap, and so on. But you have to keep the web tiles on the board and if you're matching that much blue you're probably destroying the proposed protect tiles.

Also starting a game with +6 blue ap gets you a 1 turn stun of the enemy team but that's it. You can't just stun lock the team from the get go unless you bring an under-leveled Venom.

What do you all think? Too over powered? Makes him a useless character? Adding more protect tiles is lazy (I swear I'm trying to lose weight)? Some glaring flaw I've obviously overlooked (likely)? That didn't change a damn thing, stop wasting our time?

Certianly an interesting idea. Its hard to say if its overpowered without knowing the protect tile strength. The big questions is the same question I have about Human Torch, what happens when you can't pay the upkeep. Nothing, does the tile disapear or does the tile revert to a basic tile?

I have to say unless the protect tile is really low powered its likely going to be overpowered. Currently a full team stun costs 6AP (APx3) and last one turn for one, two turns for another and three turns for the last. Comparing that to a full team stun that cost 4AP and creates a defense tile I think the new power is more powerful not less. I guess it depends what happens with the web tile. If it just sucks one blue when it can then the current methods of generating blue are not going to be really affected. IE MMN's purple or IM40s battery. Even comparing the proposed spidey stun to venoms stun, spideys is 4AP venom is 6AP. I am also kind of against the upkeep cost the more I think about it as it kind of pushes people to save up AP for one big drop. Also we can all quess how horrible the AI will handle this not thats a reason not to do it. The AI mismanages everything.