*** Spider-Man (Classic) ***

Unknown

Three little words...


"Ends the turn."

Unknown

Lyrian wrote:

Three little words...


"Ends the turn."

Sure if you want to completely obliterate Spidey's usefulness that works just fine.

I still think that the best fix would be to change his Blue into a 6ap min cost and drains all blue adding a webtile for each 2 blue used and then stunning for each webtile on the board.
or at least something akin to that should likely work if you dont want to completely rework him since all his abilities are dependent on the webtiles.

Eddiemon

Lyrian wrote:

Three little words...


"Ends the turn."

Why not just delete the ability instead?

Spidey stuns 1 character for 1 turn and stuns his whole team by ending the turn. Which removes the 1 turn stun.

If the web tile lasts a round spidey can then effectively stun his whole team again and stun an opponent for 2 turns.

After 4 turns of stunning his own team and 8 blue, spiders team gets to make a single move with the opposition team stunned. Of course then one opponent is removed from stun.

After spending 12 blue spidey would have the opposition team stunned for 2 turns where his team could actually make a move. After 18 blue he would have had the opposition team stunned for 4 turns in total. He has now caught up to the 4 free moves he gave away at the start when ending the turn without all opponents webbed.

It's less useful than any one of bagmans abilities

Unknown

Eddiemon wrote:

Lyrian wrote:

Three little words...


"Ends the turn."

Why not just delete the ability instead?

Spidey stuns 1 character for 1 turn and stuns his whole team by ending the turn. Which removes the 1 turn stun.

If the web tile lasts a round spidey can then effectively stun his whole team again and stun an opponent for 2 turns.

After 4 turns of stunning his own team and 8 blue, spiders team gets to make a single move with the opposition team stunned. Of course then one opponent is removed from stun.

After spending 12 blue spidey would have the opposition team stunned for 2 turns where his team could actually make a move. After 18 blue he would have had the opposition team stunned for 4 turns in total. He has now caught up to the 4 free moves he gave away at the start when ending the turn without all opponents webbed.

It's less useful than any one of bagmans abilities

While I agree that "ends the turn" would make the ability terrible, it doesn't make sense to analyze a potential change on "how well it stuns the entire enemy team"

There are a heck of a lot of battles where "2 AP: end your turn and stun one opponent for three turns" is an ability I would LOVE to have

Spoit

Remember that venom, as a 1*, has a 4 AP 1 person stun, or 7AP team stun. So 6 AP for a single person stun on a 3* is pretty silly

Unknown

Spoit wrote:

Remember that venom, as a 1*, has a 4 AP 1 person stun, or 7AP team stun. So 6 AP for a single person stun on a 3* is pretty silly

No one actually applies logic or reasoning when discussing how to change Spiderman.

Spoit

For that matter, the 1* BW has a five turn plus 1 turn team stun for only 9 blue

Unknown

The problem with ATU is that web tile is a resource for Spiderman so somethin that builds resources should not be more powerful than something that does not. I do not consider Venom's web tiles to be a resource because it's very rare you'll have enough web tiles created by just Venom to get the bonus on Devour. Of course, then there's the fact that currently web tiles are the resources used by his other two abilities too.

eidehua

Ashuran wrote:

events makes it very hard to win in certain matchup without that blue stun skill. So I am hoping they will not tweak him. Latest event they teaming evil goons with the good guys like thor and auto generate 4 green a turn lol. While I appreciate the fun of the match but there is no storyline behind it. Also make it very hard to win unless u those players spamming +ap boost so we kind of need the stun

This isn't really an issue since the community scaling will be affected without the strong spidey-- nodes won't scale as high because of no stun lock. Sure, there are some people that will AP boost, but it's hard to say the overall effect on that on scaling and if it will be too much for non boost users.

Unknown

Phantron wrote:

The problem with ATU is that web tile is a resource for Spiderman so somethin that builds resources should not be more powerful than something that does not. I do not consider Venom's web tiles to be a resource because it's very rare you'll have enough web tiles created by just Venom to get the bonus on Devour. Of course, then there's the fact that currently web tiles are the resources used by his other two abilities too.

Yup.

A long time ago, in a thread where I poured out some crazy math on how each skill should be optimally be rebalanced, I forwarded that ATU web tile generation should be similar to Punisher strike tiles. 1 at 1, 2 at 3, and 3 at 5 blue for 6 AP.

Thus, averaging 6AP/Web at 1 blue, 3AP/Web at 3 blue, and 2AP/Web at 5 blue. In this way, his other two skills still function as normal, while keep the general 3*** theme of improving efficiency at multiple covers in a color.

At 6 AP per cast, this pretty much keeps stunlocking off the board, and reorients the skill as a preparatory skill for his Yellow/Purple with an emergency-ish stun for Blue.

If his Blue is kept at one-match or less AP costs, "ending the turn" is the only to prevent permanent stunlock, once enough Blue is gathered or fed to Spidey through MN Mags. (Talking PvE here; everyone knows that this combo would be suicide in a retaliation in PvP).

Eddiemon

gamar wrote:

While I agree that "ends the turn" would make the ability terrible, it doesn't make sense to analyze a potential change on "how well it stuns the entire enemy team"

There are a heck of a lot of battles where "2 AP: end your turn and stun one opponent for three turns" is an ability I would LOVE to have

Well the only reason the analysis is being done on 'stuns the entire enemy team' is because ending the turn stuns your entire team. Plus in this model to get to the 2AP event you mention you would already have had to stun your team twice, spend 4AP and not have any of your web tiles matched off.

And wouldn't it be better to stun the enemy for 2 turns and not stun your entire team? You could use Caps blue, or you could use M.Widow to much better effect and you wouldn't have had to stun your entire team 3 times to get the same or a better outcome.

Of the aim were to simply slow it down then 'stuns for the number of web tiles on the board, then adds a webtile" would achieve that without you losing turns.

Spoit

Lyrian wrote:

Phantron wrote:

The problem with ATU is that web tile is a resource for Spiderman so somethin that builds resources should not be more powerful than something that does not. I do not consider Venom's web tiles to be a resource because it's very rare you'll have enough web tiles created by just Venom to get the bonus on Devour. Of course, then there's the fact that currently web tiles are the resources used by his other two abilities too.

Yup.

A long time ago, in a thread where I poured out some crazy math on how each skill should be optimally be rebalanced, I forwarded that ATU web tile generation should be similar to Punisher strike tiles. 1 at 1, 2 at 3, and 3 at 5 blue for 6 AP.

Thus, averaging 6AP/Web at 1 blue, 3AP/Web at 3 blue, and 2AP/Web at 5 blue. In this way, his other two skills still function as normal, while keep the general 3*** theme of improving efficiency at multiple covers in a color.

At 6 AP per cast, this pretty much keeps stunlocking off the board, and reorients the skill as a preparatory skill for his Yellow/Purple with an emergency-ish stun for Blue.

If his Blue is kept at one-match or less AP costs, "ending the turn" is the only to prevent permanent stunlock, once enough Blue is gathered or fed to Spidey through MN Mags. (Talking PvE here; everyone knows that this combo would be suicide in a retaliation in PvP).

ATU? While that's a lot more reasonable, I still question the power economy of requiring 12 blue to do do more than a 1 turn stun, when again, the 1 star widow's is 9 for 5+1+1.

Hmm, how about some sort of sliding costs based on the number of web tile, a la psyclock?

Unknown

Spoit wrote:

Hmm, how about some sort of sliding costs based on the number of web tile, a la psyclock?

I wonder how it would work if, instead of the ability stunning for a maximum of 5 turns, it could only stun up to 5 turns "stacked" on the enemy team? So for example if you had 5 web tiles and the number of "stun timers" on the enemy was 1-2-0 and you used it on the third target, that target would only get 2 turns of stuns

Unknown

Really anything that doesn't let him stun all ennemies just like he does now will not be well received by the current Spidey users, and why would it ? They have a 99% win ratio with him...
But I pretty much agree that a simple ap cost increase is not the solution (at least not by itself) since his other abilities are dependant of his blue, by nerfing one you nerf all three, so they need to tweak his other abilities too...

Just let the developpers figure it out, if they do decide to nerf him one day (since they make quite a lot of money off him right now), and let's hope they do not butcher him like they did Rag and Wolvie.

Or they could just render him useless and release a platinum Spidey the week after that has the same abilities as current Spidey. (I wouldn't put it past them at this point...)

Unknown

It would be pretty simple to basically give him the same move until lvl 3 (so first lvl drops cost from 6 to 5), lvl 2-3 makes it stun the whole enemy team. 3-4 makes it stun the whole team for 2 turns. 4-5 stuns one player for 4 turns and the other two for 2 turns. Next turns stunned per an ap is 8/5 or 1.6 stun turns per ap. Considering it simultaneously nerfs his yellow and purple considerably I don't think anyone wanting a nerf should have a problem with this and it would even drop the max stun down to 4 turns from 5. @5 ap its actually stronger on the first 3 turns, stunwise, than before (1.6 per ap vs 1.0 per ap). With 10 ap the comparison is 1.6 per ap vs. 1.25 with more targetability on who is stunned...making them close to equal. @15 ap, the advantage from the "nerf" is gone...and that's where spidey was a real problem anyway. The heal would be greatly hindered by this change as would the tiles. They might need to be buffed depending on how testing goes even. Regardless, it would stop ppl complaining hopefully for him to be nerfed. Then instead they would complain that punisher's red is ruining pve....or magneto's blue.... or psylocke' s black............ or obw's (take your pick)............. Or thor/bp aoe moves................... Or patch's green.................................... Or doom's black *fades into distance*

Unknown

'Ends the turn' is a tool that should either be used on everything or almost nothing. Even pre nerf Ragnarok's Thunderclap might be borderline balanced if it ended your turn (because a lot of the time that skill sets up a free match 5 for the opponent).

I'm not opposed to 'ends the turn' being used more liberally than it currently is, but stun is a weird place to start. Generally speaking, I'd expect 'ends the turn' to be tacked on abilities that can potentially be looped infinitely, like AP gaining moves. While stuns can be argued as an AP gaining move as well, stun has enough other functions (namely, prevent the other guy from using their attack) that I don't think it should be treated as if it's only an AP gaining move. Take something like Widow's Sting. 9 blue to stun the enemy team for 1 turn is obviously not something that can be sustained at all, but it makes a lot of sense if you see a match that can lead to another match 5, for example. Even the ability to stun the enemy team should be allowed, as long as you can't stun them frequently.

Unknown

soenottelling wrote:

It would be pretty simple to basically give him the same move until lvl 3 (so first lvl drops cost from 6 to 5), lvl 2-3 makes it stun the whole enemy team. 3-4 makes it stun the whole team for 2 turns. 4-5 stuns one player for 4 turns and the other two for 2 turns. Next turns stunned per an ap is 8/5 or 1.6 stun turns per ap. Considering it simultaneously nerfs his yellow and purple considerably I don't think anyone wanting a nerf should have a problem with this and it would even drop the max stun down to 4 turns from 5. @5 ap its actually stronger on the first 3 turns, stunwise, than before (1.6 per ap vs 1.0 per ap). With 10 ap the comparison is 1.6 per ap vs. 1.25 with more targetability on who is stunned...making them close to equal. @15 ap, the advantage from the "nerf" is gone...and that's where spidey was a real problem anyway. The heal would be greatly hindered by this change as would the tiles. They might need to be buffed depending on how testing goes even. Regardless, it would stop ppl complaining hopefully for him to be nerfed. Then instead they would complain that punisher's red is ruining pve....or magneto's blue.... or psylocke' s black............ or obw's (take your pick)............. Or thor/bp aoe moves................... Or patch's green.................................... Or doom's black *fades into distance*

A 2 turn team stun for 5AP? I hope you are joking. He would be the most broken character in the history of match making games. His healing is strong, but this was never about that. It is the stun effect that is OP. He would actually be even better than he is now, since now for 6AP he can stun a character 1 turn, another for 2 turns and a third for 3 turns. With your version, for less AP you have 2 entirely free turns from damage during which you can get 5AP and do it again. I wish he had weaker stun/heal abilities and a third that wasn't defensive. Their build of Spiderman is boring and nothing like the comics superhero who is taking down baddies without breaking a sweat. Where is his super strength and his carefree attitude? All I see is a masked bug sitting back and webbing everyone. Oh, he also plays doctor by webbing wounds (does this makes sense?).

Unknown

Narkon wrote:

soenottelling wrote:

It would be pretty simple to basically give him the same move until lvl 3 (so first lvl drops cost from 6 to 5), lvl 2-3 makes it stun the whole enemy team. 3-4 makes it stun the whole team for 2 turns. 4-5 stuns one player for 4 turns and the other two for 2 turns. Next turns stunned per an ap is 8/5 or 1.6 stun turns per ap. Considering it simultaneously nerfs his yellow and purple considerably I don't think anyone wanting a nerf should have a problem with this and it would even drop the max stun down to 4 turns from 5. @5 ap its actually stronger on the first 3 turns, stunwise, than before (1.6 per ap vs 1.0 per ap). With 10 ap the comparison is 1.6 per ap vs. 1.25 with more targetability on who is stunned...making them close to equal. @15 ap, the advantage from the "nerf" is gone...and that's where spidey was a real problem anyway. The heal would be greatly hindered by this change as would the tiles. They might need to be buffed depending on how testing goes even. Regardless, it would stop ppl complaining hopefully for him to be nerfed. Then instead they would complain that punisher's red is ruining pve....or magneto's blue.... or psylocke' s black............ or obw's (take your pick)............. Or thor/bp aoe moves................... Or patch's green.................................... Or doom's black *fades into distance*

A 2 turn team stun for 5AP? I hope you are joking. He would be the most broken character in the history of match making games. His healing is strong, but this was never about that. It is the stun effect that is OP. He would actually be even better than he is now, since now for 6AP he can stun a character 1 turn, another for 2 turns and a third for 3 turns. With your version, for less AP you have 2 entirely free turns from damage during which you can get 5AP and do it again. I wish he had weaker stun/heal abilities and a third that wasn't defensive. Their build of Spiderman is boring and nothing like the comics superhero who is taking down baddies without breaking a sweat. Where is his super strength and his carefree attitude? All I see is a masked bug sitting back and webbing everyone. Oh, he also plays doctor by webbing wounds (does this makes sense?).

1 turn stun and 4 on the center might be a little better, I just didn't care to redo all the numbers by the time I got to the bottom of the page, which is 6 stun turns for 5 ap, but it basically kills him as a character if his yellow and purple aren't changed as well then plus it makes his move just a cheaper version of bw which I was avoiding. Either way, the team stun ability isn't why he is so overpowered right now as you suggest. The problem is that if you knock one or two characters out the stun gets MORE powerful and not LESS powerful. With team stuns knocking the other characters out means the ap to stun ratio decreases, the fact that isn't the case is why spidey is broken. On top of that, the move revs up quickly even with 3 characters still up. It's not easy to keep a full 3 character spidey stun up for extended periods of time. Thing is you never have to as the move becomes far more effective with each ko.

They could also just make his stun a 4 ap 1 turn team stun that builds a tile....but then he is just a healing character with a little bit of defense. Not necessarily unfair, but its a pretty extreme drop in usefulness...to the point ppl simply wouldn't use him. Honestly, the problem is without a full character change nerfing his stun either is not enough or its too much. His blue is his only real move. The purple is only good with the blue and the yellow is something I assume if they ever nerf him will be a goal to weaken.

Jim_MatriX_cz

I am currently lvl 60, 4 blue spidey what means his blue costs me 3 AP. In this state, I always reconsider whether to use him or not. Not always able to use his stunning/healling fully. Also healing is too expensive compared to OBW. I preffer black widow. I advice that blue for 2 AP is too cheap and 4 AP is too much. Even with 3 points you are not able to do "permastun" without sparing many of blue in advance. I would preffer not to do major changes.
By the way, playing against blue 2AP is pretty annoying, especially when he is last man standing...

Unknown

You can't just say 'well Venom can stun 1 turn for 7 purple so...' when making abilities like team stuns. If you go by logic every character should be able to take infinite turns because Modern Storm can do that on 2 of the environments in the game. Modern Black Widow and Venom's stuns are actually pretty much top tier and just because they're 1* doesn't mean a 3* has to have a better ability, just like how almost nothing is better than Lightning Storm in terms of AP generation (Magnetic Field could beat it, but that's about it).

Spiderman's stun should fall somewhere between Venom and Modern Black Widow, since Venom uses a relatively weak resource (purple) so 7 purple can be considered as cheaper than 7 blue, but Spiderman's ATU builds a valuable resource (web tiles, unlike Venom who almost can never make use of his web tiles). Of course, at that cost, his other two skills that depends on web tile generation would be unusable. That's why this issue is actually very hard, much harder than balancing Magneto who only needs smaller numbers or bigger AP costs to balance his ability.