Please nerf 5* Thor

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  • Asmodaeus
    Asmodaeus Posts: 100 Tile Toppler
    entrailbucket said: I only made one nerf Gambit thread, and he actually got nerfed
    Soooo, you are solely responsible for the Gambit rebalance? That thread was a very long discussion in which many different ppl agreed he needed some tweakage and had good constructive ideas on how to accomplish that. This thread, however, seems to be mostly YOU (ive counted over 30 posts here that are yours) pushing an agenda and folks are mostly disagreeing with it. You've made your ideas clear and some are not bad. Also I respect your right to voice them (and I also respectfully disagree with them)...but enough already. Mods, please nerf this thread as the OP seems to be intent on making this no longer a constructive discussion 
  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,850 Chairperson of the Boards
    Asmodaeus said:
    entrailbucket said: I only made one nerf Gambit thread, and he actually got nerfed
    Soooo, you are solely responsible for the Gambit rebalance? That thread was a very long discussion in which many different ppl agreed he needed some tweakage and had good constructive ideas on how to accomplish that. This thread, however, seems to be mostly YOU (ive counted over 30 posts here that are yours) pushing an agenda and folks are mostly disagreeing with it. You've made your ideas clear and some are not bad. Also I respect your right to voice them (and I also respectfully disagree with them)...but enough already. Mods, please nerf this thread as the OP seems to be intent on making this no longer a constructive discussion 
    The guy said I made 300 threads, and it was one.  I wasn't taking credit for the nerf (I wish!), just saying that eventually the devs agreed.

    This thread is mostly me sharing ideas that may or may not be bad, and other people either completely refusing to engage and making personal attacks, or claiming that any change to Thor, even one that would be positive for non-exploiters, is unacceptable.
  • ViralCore
    ViralCore Posts: 168 Tile Toppler
    I was on the fence about rebalancing Thor but you have all managed to persuade me that a rebalance is needed! We're now going to be in a position where you have to bring your own Thor in order to keep up with AP acceleration that he provides. D3 can probably keep him mostly as is but add the caveat that he self-damages every turn based on the number of AP in your highest AP pool. This is a great balance as it both powers him up and weakens him.
  • tph_james
    tph_james Posts: 197 Tile Toppler
    It's so easy to deal with the so called "exploit". Just make thor destroying tiles when hp is below 20%...
  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,850 Chairperson of the Boards
    Blindman13 said:
    entrailbucket said:
    I still haven't seen anyone comment on nerfing Thor by removing health packs and starting every match at 100% health.  How would you guys feel about that one?
    Seeing as how you seem to want to stubbornly continue down this path of suggesting ways to nerf a character when a vast majority of the people engaging in this conversation are telling you it is unnecessary, I will respond to this idea.
     
    Removing health packs and starting each match at 100% health would be the equivalent of killing a housefly with a tank. Sure it might achieve the desired result, but what kind of collateral damage would you inflict on the entire game?  The meta would shift back to Thanos because the detrimental aspects of Court Death would be removed. PvP players could deliberately lose to friendlies for hours on end to feed points to them.  It's just a ridiculous suggestion.

    Not to mention, who does this 'exploit' (as you call it) hurt?  Much like tapping, if someone is willing to put in the time to engage in the activity, then that should be their prerogative. Unlike tapping though, there is such a small group willing/able to do it, I see no way in which they are gaining any significant advantage in scoring. 
    I think a lot of players here would disagree about the health packs thing.  That's a very common complaint about MPQ. 

    But anyway, if there's no advantage to be gained by reverse prologue healing then why are people doing it?  You can't say it's meaningless/insignificant and then also say that fixing it would be bad for the game.  Tapping pve is also not a great example to use there, because they fixed that one.
  • Warbringa
    Warbringa Posts: 1,299 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited July 2018
    entrailbucket said:
    I'm back!  So we got a change to Gambit (and even though I don't think it goes far enough, it seems to be enough that people are selling/not using him, so mission accomplished!).  Thor needs to be dealt with next, as he's going to take over the meta in Gambit's absence.


    I thought you were joking when you said his nerf didn't go far enough.  Then I realized by the rest of the post you weren't.  You must be on a completely different wavelength than the rest of MPQ or you are just trolling Gambit users?
  • elko90
    elko90 Posts: 68 Match Maker
    Dartmaster01 said:
    I'm against feeding the trolls.
    You are right. This person is just trolling 
  • Waddles_Pines
    Waddles_Pines Posts: 1,229 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited July 2018
    Whew, I saw 4 ppl liked the first post, I was hovering over it to see who would like this.  I accidentally clicked my mouse and was like "ahhhhh don't put me on this list", then realized you can click again to "unlike".  Crisis averted....

    Since a basketball analogy was brought up a page or two back; would those 4 "likes" be more like KD's burner accounts, or Colangelo's "wife's" burner accounts?

    I feel bad for feeding the trolls... As penance, I'll think of ways to nerf Banner... after all, Hulk is the strongest one there is... or should I think of Wolvie since he's the best there is at what he does...
  • FOADakaSquirrelBoy
    FOADakaSquirrelBoy Posts: 82 Match Maker

    Warbringa said:
    entrailbucket said:
    I'm back!  So we got a change to Gambit (and even though I don't think it goes far enough, it seems to be enough that people are selling/not using him, so mission accomplished!).  Thor needs to be dealt with next, as he's going to take over the meta in Gambit's absence.


    I thought you were joking when you said his nerf didn't go far enough.  Then I realized by the rest of the post you weren't.  You must be on a completely different wavelength than the rest of MPQ or you are just trolling Gambit users?


    It seems fairly obvious to me that OP is completely on point here. Let's all hope D3 realizes this and takes appropriate action.

  • Blindman13
    Blindman13 Posts: 504 Critical Contributor
    entrailbucket said:
    I think a lot of players here would disagree about the health packs thing.  That's a very common complaint about MPQ. 

    But anyway, if there's no advantage to be gained by reverse prologue healing then why are people doing it?  You can't say it's meaningless/insignificant and then also say that fixing it would be bad for the game.  Tapping pve is also not a great example to use there, because they fixed that one.
    I find it surprising that health packs are a common complaint, as I have never seen anyone but you suggest that they be removed. I frequent these boards, I think I've seen most every complaint, and I should recognize the very common ones.

    I didn't say it was meaningless or insignificant. I said it doesn't have a significant impact on scoring. I used tapping as a contrasting example because it did have a significant impact on scores, as the tappers were taking all the top spots in multiple SCLs. This was because anyone with the time could do it. That is why they put an end to it. 
    In contrast, only a fraction of those with a Gladiathor are taking the time to start matches and retreat in order to get him to 50%.. Others use him with Thanos on the easy nodes to get his health down.  Is this an "exploit" too? Still others just use other characters from their roster.

    I see two reasons why someone would do this:
    1 - To get a speed/strength advantage in your PvE clears.  The speed advantage is partially offset by the time it takes to cut down his health. The extra damage and AP he generates may be the only way some people can get through some of the tougher fights.
    2 - For a strength advantage in PvP.  Sure this will allow them to punch up a bit, but it again is offset because he is not great on defense, as others have stated.

    Simply put, few people are engaging you on your nerf suggestions because you started with a flawed premise. Nothing about Gladiathor is 'game-breaking' or detrimental to others enjoyment of the game. Therefore, no nerf is needed.
  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,850 Chairperson of the Boards
    I guess it's easy to dismiss ideas you don't like as trolling.  The response in this thread has indeed been pretty negative, but it's been mostly positive in other chats, so I think something will happen with Thor eventually.

    It's interesting to me how invested everyone is in this particular exploit though.  It reminds me quite a bit of prologue healing or PvE tapping in that way.
  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,850 Chairperson of the Boards
    Blindman13 said:
    entrailbucket said:
    I think a lot of players here would disagree about the health packs thing.  That's a very common complaint about MPQ. 

    But anyway, if there's no advantage to be gained by reverse prologue healing then why are people doing it?  You can't say it's meaningless/insignificant and then also say that fixing it would be bad for the game.  Tapping pve is also not a great example to use there, because they fixed that one.
    I find it surprising that health packs are a common complaint, as I have never seen anyone but you suggest that they be removed. I frequent these boards, I think I've seen most every complaint, and I should recognize the very common ones.

    I didn't say it was meaningless or insignificant. I said it doesn't have a significant impact on scoring. I used tapping as a contrasting example because it did have a significant impact on scores, as the tappers were taking all the top spots in multiple SCLs. This was because anyone with the time could do it. That is why they put an end to it. 
    In contrast, only a fraction of those with a Gladiathor are taking the time to start matches and retreat in order to get him to 50%.. Others use him with Thanos on the easy nodes to get his health down.  Is this an "exploit" too? Still others just use other characters from their roster.

    I see two reasons why someone would do this:
    1 - To get a speed/strength advantage in your PvE clears.  The speed advantage is partially offset by the time it takes to cut down his health. The extra damage and AP he generates may be the only way some people can get through some of the tougher fights.
    2 - For a strength advantage in PvP.  Sure this will allow them to punch up a bit, but it again is offset because he is not great on defense, as others have stated.

    Simply put, few people are engaging you on your nerf suggestions because you started with a flawed premise. Nothing about Gladiathor is 'game-breaking' or detrimental to others enjoyment of the game. Therefore, no nerf is needed.
    So, a few people are hurting Thor on purpose to gain a significant advantage in speed and strength, but it doesn't affect their scoring at all?  If that's true then removing the exploit won't have any effect, and those people will just save some time instead of wasting it, because what they're doing isn't helping them.
  • thedarkphoenix
    thedarkphoenix Posts: 557 Critical Contributor
    entrailbucket said:
    I guess it's easy to dismiss ideas you don't like as trolling.  The response in this thread has indeed been pretty negative, but it's been mostly positive in other chats, so I think something will happen with Thor eventually.

    It's interesting to me how invested everyone is in this particular exploit though.  It reminds me quite a bit of prologue healing or PvE tapping in that way.
    You keep using the word exploit as if it was a negative thing, you can exploit the use of something without it being negative or unintended or bad.

    It just means  to take full advantage of whats given to you.  Do people leave with thor to quickly get him to the 50 percent mark? Sure... is it a exploit sure. Is it bad? Not really.

    I personally don't, why waste that health when I can battle and have him lose the health in battle. Some might look for alliance member and give them a free win or two. But over all its just not that efficient. It only is if you really in a rush is it intended? Probably not, is it a big as a deal as you are making it out to be also probably not.

    There is really no way around it unless they do some "special coding" which it's probably not worth them doing. Same with daredevil.




  • Blindman13
    Blindman13 Posts: 504 Critical Contributor
    entrailbucket said:
    Blindman13 said:
    entrailbucket said:
    I think a lot of players here would disagree about the health packs thing.  That's a very common complaint about MPQ. 

    But anyway, if there's no advantage to be gained by reverse prologue healing then why are people doing it?  You can't say it's meaningless/insignificant and then also say that fixing it would be bad for the game.  Tapping pve is also not a great example to use there, because they fixed that one.
    I find it surprising that health packs are a common complaint, as I have never seen anyone but you suggest that they be removed. I frequent these boards, I think I've seen most every complaint, and I should recognize the very common ones.

    I didn't say it was meaningless or insignificant. I said it doesn't have a significant impact on scoring. I used tapping as a contrasting example because it did have a significant impact on scores, as the tappers were taking all the top spots in multiple SCLs. This was because anyone with the time could do it. That is why they put an end to it. 
    In contrast, only a fraction of those with a Gladiathor are taking the time to start matches and retreat in order to get him to 50%.. Others use him with Thanos on the easy nodes to get his health down.  Is this an "exploit" too? Still others just use other characters from their roster.

    I see two reasons why someone would do this:
    1 - To get a speed/strength advantage in your PvE clears.  The speed advantage is partially offset by the time it takes to cut down his health. The extra damage and AP he generates may be the only way some people can get through some of the tougher fights.
    2 - For a strength advantage in PvP.  Sure this will allow them to punch up a bit, but it again is offset because he is not great on defense, as others have stated.

    Simply put, few people are engaging you on your nerf suggestions because you started with a flawed premise. Nothing about Gladiathor is 'game-breaking' or detrimental to others enjoyment of the game. Therefore, no nerf is needed.
    So, a few people are hurting Thor on purpose to gain a significant advantage in speed and strength, but it doesn't affect their scoring at all?  If that's true then removing the exploit won't have any effect, and those people will just save some time instead of wasting it, because what they're doing isn't helping them.
    Why do you keep trying to put words in my mouth? I'm starting to regret feeding into trollish behavior.

    One last attempt at civility:  I never said it didn't affect their score. I said the small number of people doing it, and the small advantage it gave them wasn't enough to warrant completely restructuring a core function of the game. 

    If you can demonstrate how someone deliberately hurting Thor to get him under 50% health has a negative impact on the game as a whole, I will engage you further. Otherwise I am moving on to more enjoyable things.

    P.S. Giving Thor a self-heal would be a buff; not a nerf. If he had a self heal, I would run Thor/Thanos/DD all day long. As they heal above 50%, Thanos would knock them back down. 
  • LifeofAgony
    LifeofAgony Posts: 690 Critical Contributor
    Exploits are varying in levels of nefariousness.  This exploit is less negative than some of the big resource exploits that occurred, but it’s an exploit nevertheless.

    I have to agree with OP, a minor tweak to fix the reverse prologue healing exploit would be a welcome change.
  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,850 Chairperson of the Boards
    thedarkphoenix said:
    entrailbucket said:
    I guess it's easy to dismiss ideas you don't like as trolling.  The response in this thread has indeed been pretty negative, but it's been mostly positive in other chats, so I think something will happen with Thor eventually.

    It's interesting to me how invested everyone is in this particular exploit though.  It reminds me quite a bit of prologue healing or PvE tapping in that way.
    You keep using the word exploit as if it was a negative thing, you can exploit the use of something without it being negative or unintended or bad.

    It just means  to take full advantage of whats given to you.  Do people leave with thor to quickly get him to the 50 percent mark? Sure... is it a exploit sure. Is it bad? Not really.

    I personally don't, why waste that health when I can battle and have him lose the health in battle. Some might look for alliance member and give them a free win or two. But over all its just not that efficient. It only is if you really in a rush is it intended? Probably not, is it a big as a deal as you are making it out to be also probably not.

    There is really no way around it unless they do some "special coding" which it's probably not worth them doing. Same with daredevil.




    So what about PvE tapping?  That was just people taking advantage of what the game gave them, and people seemed to want that fixed.  Was that an "exploit?" If it wasn't, why was it fixed?
  • Warbringa
    Warbringa Posts: 1,299 Chairperson of the Boards
    I wouldn't call the Thor 50% health issue an exploit.  It is simply poor design.  An exploit is when you take advantage of something that you are not supposed to or outside of the rules.  This is clearly how he was built and it was simply poor foresight by the devs to not understand that he is actually better with less health.  Now there is always a risk when you take a character into a match at 50% health however, his ability is so good, that even at 50% health it generally offsets this risk the majority of the time.  

    There used to be a similar issue with IM40 before he was retooled.  He used to be one of the worst 3* out there.  His yellow power was actually clearly better with less covers than having 5.  Many people kept him undercovered because of this.  It wasn't an exploit simply bad design.  Of course the devs fixed this issue and made him perhaps the best 3* ever by simply changing his yellow power.
  • thedarkphoenix
    thedarkphoenix Posts: 557 Critical Contributor
    Whats going to end up happening is the leaving a match (or disconnecting) back to back quickly is just going to increase the amount of damage you take or take you character down to 1 percent health or something silly like that.

    This is going to change absolutely nothing in the long run and end up being more frustrating when it happens by mistake rather than intentional.
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