Update to 4-Star Pack Odds (6/4/18)

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  • Punter1
    Punter1 Posts: 727 Critical Contributor
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    Above the door on the way into the 'dev' room is the inspirational quote:

    "If it ain't broke, fix it!"

    Here to echo others comments, the vaulting solution that's been in place for a while has been widely accepted and appreciated by the community.  It provides focus for roster development for newer players and makes covering the constant chain of new characters a reasonable task.  It also means the newer characters get some level of power gain relatively quickly to bring them in line with already champed 4s while not completely blocking out the old 4s.  All positives of the current system. 

    So here is another mis-step, a mild increase of odds on a few select stores, great, but a shift in the draw set-up a much bigger slip.  Well done 'devs' you've hit your mandate for the day again!

  • Nabistay
    Nabistay Posts: 146 Tile Toppler
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    I think the dilution issue is easily solvable; favorite heroes do a fantastic job of making sure that at least 5% of the time you get a useful cover. At least, as long as you don't favorite someone who has 5 covers in a color. I think that as dilution becomes more and more of a problem they should really bump the favorite hero chances.

    there are so many possible solutions. 

    Solution 1:
    Favorites replace draws
    Each favorited character has a 5% chance of replacing a drawn character
    Max 10 favorites per tier, making a 50% chance to draw a favorite

    you end up with the same type of thing as the latest/vintage split but with favorite/unfavorite.

    Alternatively, Solution 2:
    Current bonus hero draw rate: 5%
    Add replace bonus hero draw rate of 10%

    you would end up with 5% of the time getting a random cover and a favorite, 10% of the time just a favorite. But there would be the unicorn moment of two favorites, either with a random pull happening to be a favorite or hitting both the 10% and the 5% on one pull. 

    In either case you will be throwing away covers still (and incentivising paying money like they want) but also be more able to cover some of the heroes you want to as opposed to waiting literal years like we do now. 

  • smkspy
    smkspy Posts: 2,024 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited June 2018
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    66 four stars (and growing) now evenly doled out with slight increases in select stores. Other than those of us with 90% of the tier champed, I can't see any way one can spin this as a positive.

    How about this for a change.

    Eliminate the one star tier (it really useless and a complete waste of iso in the end). Rebrand 2s as 1s, 3s as 2s, and 4s as 3s. Reintroduce a new 4 star tier that bridges the gap between current 4s and 5s...really correcting the mistake originally made when fives were created at such a high base level.

    All this stems from the poorly executed idea of fives and the fact devs cornered themselves into being unable to create a 6th tier without completely breaking the game.
  • MrKasady
    MrKasady Posts: 74 Match Maker
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    IceIX said:

    Oh, great. Now I’m going to pull Red cover 9 for my 5/3/1 America Chavez even *more* easily.

    Nothing to announce right this moment, but that sort of situation is something we are directly looking at in our latest design rounds.


    This is the only thing I want to know more about.

    It sucks that this means my P4nther, 4* BW, 4* Spidey and Jubilee will probably never get champed but whatever. 

    The biggest question that still has never been addressed is the ISO crunch (which I'm stuck in right now). There needs to be a not-insignificant bump for players to keep us interested beyond just telling us to move up to SL9.
  • Huntah86
    Huntah86 Posts: 221 Tile Toppler
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    I have every 4* champed except for Iron Spider and BW so I know I'm in the minority here but this change doesn't bother me at all.  With that said, I do think it's probably a poor decision overall though, increased odds for newer characters was a pretty great solution for new and old players IMO so I'll echo everybody else saying if it aint broke, fix it!
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,267 Chairperson of the Boards
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    I have another theory about this:what if "latest" 4*s are just...not going to be a thing anymore, and we're shifting into rapid 5* tier growth while new 4*s stop coming out?  maybe what we are seeing here is the groundwork for a "fix" of vintage 5* dilution.

    If on the heels of this change we get an accelerated announcement of 5* feeders, ideally mulitples for the existing 5*s, then slowing down targeted 4* growth while increasing overall 4* acquisition could be seen as a balancing mechanism for the 4-5* transition.
  • supergarv
    supergarv Posts: 408 Mover and Shaker
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    I just wanted to post, but what Nabistay wrote is pretty much it.

    Our complains come from pulling way to many unwanted 4‘s when we want to build our roster with hard earned tokens (it takes me half a year of gameplay to open packs!). If I then get a bunch of Kingpins and Elektras, I‘m really mad; mostly also because old 4 stars are powercreeped out of usefullness and you don‘t rebalance them anymore.

    So ideally, let my control the pool of „Latest“ 4‘s at a higher chance. Everyone wins: I spend time in the game and am happy to progress; fewer unwanted covers, more satisfaction, and maybe even more money from happy players.

    This is not rocket science. Don‘t be so stingy with virtual goods. Look at your decreasing player numbers, this is not a good way.
  • bluewolf
    bluewolf Posts: 5,501 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited June 2018
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    It is incredibly "convenient" that we don't have any token stores up to look at current odds when this announcement was made.

    They refer to stores that offer "packs" of tokens so I am assuming that a standard PVE vault will maintain its composition, or maybe add one more 4* cover into the offerings.

    The other stores are:  The new release store, 3* PVP store, and occasional 4* PVP store that does not link to a vault.

    These changes, to me, are all about trying to increase spending.

    Currently (with Latests), there's little incentive to chase the new release store because you can fairly easily cover any Latest because you pull more of them.  Now that goes away, so some people might feel pressure to spend on the new release store, which will give slightly more 4's out.  Perhaps the new release stores will have elevated odds for the new release, which would be one of the only times that will exist, and therefore encourage spending.

    The 3* PVP stores are the worst place to spend your money under the old system.  Those stores (until now) increased the odds of pulling the featured 3 and DECREASED the odds of pulling any 4, for MORE HP vs just buying Heroics.  I would only have advised my worst enemy to spend on those stores.  So making those stores actually give out more 4's makes sense, because I assume whales long ago figured out what a waste of money they would be and never bought from them.

    If they actually offer 4* PVP stores and have an increased odds of a specific 4 from packs, that may entice some whales, who I have seen basically say they wish those stores hadn't gone away.  Whether the new release PVP's still give out tokens for an "and Friends" vault or the devs move back to the cover pack stores for new releases remains to be seen.  New release PVP's currently help you get more pulls from the "and Friends" vault, but whales are very turned off by the prospect of chasing new release covers from those vaults.

    Finally:  When vaulting was introduced, there were 44 4*'s in the game (late Feb '17) which translated to a 1.932% chance of getting a specific 4 from one Legendary pull.  Now we are at 1.308% with 65 in tokens.

    That's 0.436% of getting a specific color and character.  At 20-25 CP per pull.  This translates to approximately 1200 pulls, or 24,000 - 30,000 CP to cover a 4 from scratch, but of course you will get ALL the 4's as you go.

    I sure hope there's something nice coming after this, because it mostly hurts the players in a big way.
  • JackTenrec
    JackTenrec Posts: 808 Critical Contributor
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    This seems like an extremely roundabout way of giving players more frequent 1K ISO boosts.
  • Tony_Foot
    Tony_Foot Posts: 1,754 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Happy with the change, I have a lot of classics I'd like to tick along while opening tokens as much as latest. Not getting the latest covered as fast really doesn't bother me either. Currently I have been covering them quite fast without opening CP and LT's just as bonus heroes anyway while opening heroics. I'm easily covering them that way. I bonus them until a colour hit 5 and then move to another.

    I don't use them anyway, except the 1 in 20 good ones that comes along like Chavez to help 5* play.
  • Spiritclaw
    Spiritclaw Posts: 397 Mover and Shaker
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    More 4*s out of event tokens is good.  As for the rest of it, gotta wonder why.  Are they planning to reduce the number of new characters who are 4*s?  That would make the latest 4* concept a bit awkward....
  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,267 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Spiritclaw said:
    More 4*s out of event tokens is good.  As for the rest of it, gotta wonder why.  Are they planning to reduce the number of new characters who are 4*s?  That would make the latest 4* concept a bit awkward....
    This is my feeling. I think the 5/5/4 schedule is probably the new normal, or is about to be so there won't be a meaningful distinction regarding who is latest and who is not. We'll probably start getting more rapid feeder announcements soon.
  • BoyWonder1914
    BoyWonder1914 Posts: 884 Critical Contributor
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    Perhaps I'm missing something here, but I'm not really seeing how this is any different from before we had vaulting. There were numerous complaints that it was highly difficult to cover the newer characters, because they were thrown in a pool of [at that time] 45+ 4-star characters that all had the same draw rates. If you're putting all those guys in together at the same rates, then you're just recreating the dilution problem. People begged, and proposed, and begged some more that you would just create 2 stores; one that had all latest 4-stars (which you did), and one that had all vintage 4-stars (which you refused to do). Bonus Heroes was the shining silver lining from the whole debacle, so hopefully that in combination with these "increased" draw rates for 4-stars should help. My 4* Bonus Hero luck isn't stellar, but it's markedly better than my 5* Bonus Hero chances have been. 

    I have pretty much all the 4s champed now minus Jubilee, Widow, and Iron Spidey, so no longer being able to get the newest guys at an increased rate is gonna be hurtful to my plans to stay ahead of the release schedule. 
  • GrimSkald
    GrimSkald Posts: 2,535 Chairperson of the Boards
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    PenniesForEveryone said:
    Bowgentle said:

    So you're bringing back full-on dilution in the only tokens that matter (LTs) and try to spin this as a positive thing?

    Ok.

    How could it not be perceived as a positive thing?  This is exactly what the forum has been demanding since vaulting was first introduced last March.

    We want equal access to all characters.  Now we have it.  Who cares if it takes a thousand legendary pulls to cover a new 4*?

    Let them eat cake.

    I was actually warming to Vaulting before they ended it, but I thought the 50% Latest/50% Classic was an elegant compromise.  It definitely let you get your latest 4*s up to snuff much faster, while still increasing your roster overall.

    I really don't think I like this - they're not substantially increasing the flow of 4* covers to players as far as I can tell, and instead they're drastically cutting back on the Latest in favor of the classic.  Maybe returning to full dilution? I can't tell.  TBH, this is very confusing.

  • DyingLegend
    DyingLegend Posts: 1,196 Chairperson of the Boards
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    @Brigby

    Would it be possible to get a double ISO event soon so i can get some ISO to build up all the vintage characters I'm going to be pulling?
  • PenniesForEveryone
    PenniesForEveryone Posts: 294 Mover and Shaker
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    GrimSkald said:
    PenniesForEveryone said:
    Bowgentle said:

    So you're bringing back full-on dilution in the only tokens that matter (LTs) and try to spin this as a positive thing?

    Ok.

    How could it not be perceived as a positive thing?  This is exactly what the forum has been demanding since vaulting was first introduced last March.

    We want equal access to all characters.  Now we have it.  Who cares if it takes a thousand legendary pulls to cover a new 4*?

    Let them eat cake.

    I was actually warming to Vaulting before they ended it, but I thought the 50% Latest/50% Classic was an elegant compromise.  It definitely let you get your latest 4*s up to snuff much faster, while still increasing your roster overall.

    I really don't think I like this - they're not substantially increasing the flow of 4* covers to players as far as I can tell, and instead they're drastically cutting back on the Latest in favor of the classic.  Maybe returning to full dilution? I can't tell.  TBH, this is very confusing.

    Depending on how you manager your LTs/CP you're probably more likely to champ a new 5* than a new 4* now.  That's exciting!
  • LifeofAgony
    LifeofAgony Posts: 690 Critical Contributor
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    Unless someone can correct me, it’s pre-vaulting dilution (no boosted rates for latest 12) with increase chance to pull a 4 from the stores (not heroics/legendary).

    is this the accurate takeaway?
  • PenniesForEveryone
    PenniesForEveryone Posts: 294 Mover and Shaker
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    LifeofAgony said:
    Unless someone can correct me, it’s pre-vaulting dilution (no boosted rates for latest 12) with increase chance to pull a 4 from the stores (not heroics/legendary).

    is this the accurate takeaway?
    Nailed it.

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