Story Event Minimum Points - Trial Run (3/9/18)

ZeroKarma

broll said:

entrailbucket said:

Speed = skill, mostly.  At the top end everyone is just racing to court death anyway (Thor may save you moves but he is provably not faster than Thanos/Starlord/Rocket), so the most skillful player is the one who can court death fastest.

The problem with redesigning PvE to reward specific node objectives or something is that this playerbase is such a bunch of degenerate minmaxers that everyone would immediately figure out how to get the most points with the least effort, then do that every time.  I don't think variety is ever going to be a part of the meta because most people have no interest in actually playing the game, they just want the maximum rewards with minimum effort.

No it doesn’t, at least not in this game. As @fight4thedream said it’s mostly a factor of having a certain set of core speed characters. Add to that being able to play at one of 5 key times in the day.  Neither of these have anything to do with skill and both are largely luck. 

Like most of the game RNG is the largest factor for having a good shot at placement.  However this RNG doesn’t change event to event and those who got the good rolls are handed better rewards every event. It’s a tinykitty system that needs to be overhauled or removed. 

If what you mean is that people without deep 5* rosters can’t compete for T1 in Cl9, well...you’re correct. That’s kind of how it works? And other games have similar gates and similar RNG factors.

This is the world of freemium where people that spend money or are fanatical from the inception of the game are going to have an advantage. And yet I know great players that rarely buy and build strong rosters with no problem competing.

While I sympathesize, by the way, with not being able to find an optimal time to play I don’t think it has very much to do with tapping. In my experience people who are tapping just so happen to do a final grind as well AND they do their initial grind on time. They are just lazy about it because they know they are going to spend all night hitting 3 pointers. I know one person who said he tapped because he can’t hit refreshes. The rest want rewards And want competition based around free time and not ability in game.

Additional note: Cl9 tappers that I have met often have rosters at lvl 500 and above. They are not victims of RNG.

HoundofShadow

I'm in SCL 6 and the 2nd to the 20th place has about 2700 to 3600 points more than mine. The 1st place has about 4700 points more than mine. It took me ~1 hour to finish the first 4 clear and I was in top 5 when I was done.

The only difference is that I'm lacking 4*. 4* essential node gives 402 points. 402* (4+1 clear) = 2010. Given optimal clear, they should have ~2010 points more than me. Can I assume that most of them forgot that it's a 48 hour subs and only realized it halfway while doing the 6th clear? The first place probably didn't have time to do optimal clear? 

Daiches

HoundofShadow said:

I'm in SCL 6 and the 2nd to the 20th place has about 2700 to 3600 points more than mine. The 1st place has about 4700 points more than mine. It took me ~1 hour to finish the first 4 clear and I was in top 5 when I was done.

The only difference is that I'm lacking 4*. 4* essential node gives 402 points. 402* (4+1 clear) = 2010. Given optimal clear, they should have ~2010 points more than me. Can I assume that most of them forgot that it's a 48 hour subs and only realized it halfway while doing the 6th clear? The first place probably didn't have time to do optimal clear? 

Every SCL has a bunch of people who overclear, grind way too early or forget its a 48h sub. This isn't anything new or related to tapping.

madsalad

Oh man, I gave up playing PVE for placement a long time ago. It is strictly resource gathering for me. If I'm lucky or have a particularly lazy bracket, I'll place in the top 100 or so. PVP to 1300+, PVE for resources, and call it a day. Not that I'm opposed to any improvements they deem to make to the system, but when everything's broke, there are only so many bandaids.

Blindman13

Tappers are gonna tap.
Even with this test. The difference now is that they can't tap a single node over and over, they would have to tap multiple nodes sequentially to allow each node to regen some points while doing the next one. I don't have the time or energy to even figure out how that would work, but if there's a way to do it, someone will figure it out.

The only way you will ever eliminate tapping from PvE is to eliminate the reward that a tapper would get. Moving the placement rewards to higher levels on progression seems the most straightforward way of doing that.
Then, if someone really wants to tap endlessly for some reward, open up the Prologue. Once someone is past the first 6 clears, each node could award a random prize of ISO, HP or CP (of course with minuscule odds on the CP). Let the tappers tap away on that. You could even put a limit on how many times each node could be tapped, but then it becomes a glorified DDQ. Maybe, if you get the CP then you are locked out of that reward for a set time, but you can keep tapping for lesser rewards.

Daiches

Blindman13 said:

Tappers are gonna tap.
Even with this test. The difference now is that they can't tap a single node over and over, they would have to tap multiple nodes sequentially to allow each node to regen some points while doing the next one. I don;t have the time of energy to even figure out how that would work, but if there's a way to do it, someone will figure it out.

Yes, please let them do that. That way they will end waaaaay below anyone else.

LifeofAgony

Blindman13 said:

Tappers are gonna tap.
Even with this test. The difference now is that they can't tap a single node over and over, they would have to tap multiple nodes sequentially to allow each node to regen some points while doing the next one. I don't have the time or energy to even figure out how that would work, but if there's a way to do it, someone will figure it out.

The only way you will ever eliminate tapping from PvE is to eliminate the reward that a tapper would get. Moving the placement rewards to higher levels on progression seems the most straightforward way of doing that.
Then, if someone really wants to tap endlessly for some reward, open up the Prologue. Once someone is past the first 6 clears, each node could award a random prize of ISO, HP or CP (of course with minuscule odds on the CP). Let the tappers tap away on that. You could even put a limit on how many times each node could be tapped, but then it becomes a glorified DDQ. Maybe, if you get the CP then you are locked out of that reward for a set time, but you can keep tapping for lesser rewards.

I hope they do this.  Because they will absolutely crash and burn point wise.  This test completely eliminates the benefit to tapping versus optimal play.

bluewolf

I am not sure about the point regeneration rate in this test - it is something - but as pointed out, it is far too slow to make up for early clears.  But you know that some tappers are:  1.  Going to try, over a 48 hour sub, to see if tapping somehow works when you can have more time for regeneration  2.  Not even aware, possibly, that tapping isn't going to work in this test despite the widespread information.

And yes, there are always people that ignore or miss the fact that we have a 48 hour sub and clear early.  Note that if you only care about progression or don't care to try for a top slot, then clearing early when you have the chance should still easily reach progression, and some people may pursue that strategy too.

Finally, you know when your placement matters?  At the end of the sub/event.  You will frequently see your placement fall over the span of a sub if you clear early, due to the over-clearers.  Note: your placement at the beginning of the last sub can help you decide how hard to play that one for overall event placement, but otherwise you should ignore your placement at any point mid-sub in a non-tapping environment.

Hadronic

Blindman13 said:

Tappers are gonna tap.
Even with this test. The difference now is that they can't tap a single node over and over, they would have to tap multiple nodes sequentially to allow each node to regen some points while doing the next one. I don;t have the time of energy to even figure out how that would work, but if there's a way to do it, someone will figure it out.

The only way you will ever eliminate tapping from PvE is to eliminate the reward that a tapper would get. Moving the placement rewards to higher levels on progression seems the most straightforward way of doing that.
Then, if someone really wants to tap endlessly for some reward, open up the Prologue. Once someone is past the first 6 clears, each node could award a random prize of ISO, HP or CP (of course with minuscule odds on the CP). Let the tappers tap away on that. You could even put a limit on how many times each node could be tapped, but then it becomes a glorified DDQ. Maybe, if you get the CP then you are locked out of that reward for a set time, but you can keep tapping for lesser rewards.

or you could let the nodes reduce below zero
playing optimal
clear 5: 99% points (almost full after refreshing all day)
clear 6: 66% points (just below 2/3)
clear 7: 33% points (just below 1/3) (nothing has changed at this point
clear 8: -1% points  (just below 0)
clear 9: -34% points (just keep reducing by the same amount)
clear 10: -67% points (would anyone play this ?)
clear 11: -101% points

ZeroKarma

Hadronic said:

Blindman13 said:

Tappers are gonna tap.
Even with this test. The difference now is that they can't tap a single node over and over, they would have to tap multiple nodes sequentially to allow each node to regen some points while doing the next one. I don;t have the time of energy to even figure out how that would work, but if there's a way to do it, someone will figure it out.

The only way you will ever eliminate tapping from PvE is to eliminate the reward that a tapper would get. Moving the placement rewards to higher levels on progression seems the most straightforward way of doing that.
Then, if someone really wants to tap endlessly for some reward, open up the Prologue. Once someone is past the first 6 clears, each node could award a random prize of ISO, HP or CP (of course with minuscule odds on the CP). Let the tappers tap away on that. You could even put a limit on how many times each node could be tapped, but then it becomes a glorified DDQ. Maybe, if you get the CP then you are locked out of that reward for a set time, but you can keep tapping for lesser rewards.

or you could let the nodes reduce below zero
playing optimal
clear 5: 99% points (almost full after refreshing all day)
clear 6: 66% points (just below 2/3)
clear 7: 33% points (just below 1/3) (nothing has changed at this point
clear 8: -1% points  (just below 0)
clear 9: -34% points (just keep reducing by the same amount)
clear 10: -67% points (would anyone play this ?)
clear 11: -101% points

Ya lost me. 

Daiches

bluewolf said:

I am not sure about the point regeneration rate in this test - it is something - but as pointed out, it is far too slow to make up for early clears.  But you know that some tappers are:  1.  Going to try, over a 48 hour sub, to see if tapping somehow works when you can have more time for regeneration

No, they won't try. Because one of the prerequisites to being a successful tapper is understanding the math behind it.

entrailbucket

broll said:

entrailbucket said:

Speed = skill, mostly.  At the top end everyone is just racing to court death anyway (Thor may save you moves but he is provably not faster than Thanos/Starlord/Rocket), so the most skillful player is the one who can court death fastest.

The problem with redesigning PvE to reward specific node objectives or something is that this playerbase is such a bunch of degenerate minmaxers that everyone would immediately figure out how to get the most points with the least effort, then do that every time.  I don't think variety is ever going to be a part of the meta because most people have no interest in actually playing the game, they just want the maximum rewards with minimum effort.

No it doesn’t, at least not in this game. As @fight4thedream said it’s mostly a factor of having a certain set of core speed characters. Add to that being able to play at one of 5 key times in the day.  Neither of these have anything to do with skill and both are largely luck. 

Like most of the game RNG is the largest factor for having a good shot at placement.  However this RNG doesn’t change event to event and those who got the good rolls are handed better rewards every event. It’s a tinykitty system that needs to be overhauled or removed. 

I suppose my "mostly" there was a little bit big.  If you don't have a Thanos capable of wiping 9/10 nodes with court death you have no chance no matter how skillful/fast you are.  The players at the top of CL9 PvE all have that, so the difference between their scores is speed, which roughly equals skill.

Not being able to compete if you don't have the best guys is a feature, not a bug.  They don't run this game as a charity, it's a business -- it exists to make money.  Why do you think you deserve to be in the top 1% of players without being in the top 1% of spenders?  Random is random, yes, but if you throw cash at RNG long enough you get the stuff you need.

For what it's worth I'm totally on board with a massive nerf to court death...it's boring, it breaks PvE, and I have the resources to be able to swap to whatever speed combo is the next fastest.

broll

ZeroKarma said:

broll said:

entrailbucket said:

Speed = skill, mostly.  At the top end everyone is just racing to court death anyway (Thor may save you moves but he is provably not faster than Thanos/Starlord/Rocket), so the most skillful player is the one who can court death fastest.

The problem with redesigning PvE to reward specific node objectives or something is that this playerbase is such a bunch of degenerate minmaxers that everyone would immediately figure out how to get the most points with the least effort, then do that every time.  I don't think variety is ever going to be a part of the meta because most people have no interest in actually playing the game, they just want the maximum rewards with minimum effort.

No it doesn’t, at least not in this game. As @fight4thedream said it’s mostly a factor of having a certain set of core speed characters. Add to that being able to play at one of 5 key times in the day.  Neither of these have anything to do with skill and both are largely luck. 

Like most of the game RNG is the largest factor for having a good shot at placement.  However this RNG doesn’t change event to event and those who got the good rolls are handed better rewards every event. It’s a tinykitty system that needs to be overhauled or removed. 

If what you mean is that people without deep 5* rosters can’t compete for T1 in Cl9, well...you’re correct. That’s kind of how it works? And other games have similar gates and similar RNG factors.

This is the world of freemium where people that spend money or are fanatical from the inception of the game are going to have an advantage. And yet I know great players that rarely buy and build strong rosters with no problem competing.

While I sympathesize, by the way, with not being able to find an optimal time to play I don’t think it has very much to do with tapping. In my experience people who are tapping just so happen to do a final grind as well AND they do their initial grind on time. They are just lazy about it because they know they are going to spend all night hitting 3 pointers. I know one person who said he tapped because he can’t hit refreshes. The rest want rewards And want competition based around free time and not ability in game.

Additional note: Cl9 tappers that I have met often have rosters at lvl 500 and above. They are not victims of RNG.

My comment wasn’t nailed to any specific SCL. At all levels having the appropriate speed characters is a bigger factor than skill. 

As as far as times I wasn’t saying it had anything to do with tapping, just going counter the skill claim and supporting ideas for better win requirements that actually contain skill. 

My my only issue with tapping going away is that as others have claimed if someone wants to put in that much work I don’t see a problem with being rewarded. The larger problem IMO are botting concerns.  

Despite playing for 2 years at what my wife would call obsessive levels and being PvE focused I can count on 1 hand the times I’ve gotten better than T20 placement in a meaningful SCL (aka 7 or higher). The times I have it was either:
- 3 day event on a 3 day weekend where I had no family obligations.  It was shockingly easy how easy it was to get high placement when I had the correct time available. 
- Tapping on weekend events (I did this a grand total of twice ever). 

Its unbalanced that someone like me gets locked out of T20 or higher while others get it every time doing the same amount of work I do just at the right time (I do 7 clears, but can’t do the final clear optimally).  No amount of skill will fix this in the current system. 

Daiches

broll said:

ZeroKarma said:

broll said:

entrailbucket said:

Speed = skill, mostly.  At the top end everyone is just racing to court death anyway (Thor may save you moves but he is provably not faster than Thanos/Starlord/Rocket), so the most skillful player is the one who can court death fastest.

The problem with redesigning PvE to reward specific node objectives or something is that this playerbase is such a bunch of degenerate minmaxers that everyone would immediately figure out how to get the most points with the least effort, then do that every time.  I don't think variety is ever going to be a part of the meta because most people have no interest in actually playing the game, they just want the maximum rewards with minimum effort.

No it doesn’t, at least not in this game. As @fight4thedream said it’s mostly a factor of having a certain set of core speed characters. Add to that being able to play at one of 5 key times in the day.  Neither of these have anything to do with skill and both are largely luck. 

Like most of the game RNG is the largest factor for having a good shot at placement.  However this RNG doesn’t change event to event and those who got the good rolls are handed better rewards every event. It’s a tinykitty system that needs to be overhauled or removed. 

If what you mean is that people without deep 5* rosters can’t compete for T1 in Cl9, well...you’re correct. That’s kind of how it works? And other games have similar gates and similar RNG factors.

This is the world of freemium where people that spend money or are fanatical from the inception of the game are going to have an advantage. And yet I know great players that rarely buy and build strong rosters with no problem competing.

While I sympathesize, by the way, with not being able to find an optimal time to play I don’t think it has very much to do with tapping. In my experience people who are tapping just so happen to do a final grind as well AND they do their initial grind on time. They are just lazy about it because they know they are going to spend all night hitting 3 pointers. I know one person who said he tapped because he can’t hit refreshes. The rest want rewards And want competition based around free time and not ability in game.

Additional note: Cl9 tappers that I have met often have rosters at lvl 500 and above. They are not victims of RNG.

My comment wasn’t nailed to any specific SCL. At all levels having the appropriate speed characters is a bigger factor than skill. 

As as far as times I wasn’t saying it had anything to do with tapping, just going counter the skill claim and supporting ideas for better win requirements that actually contain skill. 

My my only issue with tapping going away is that as others have claimed if someone wants to put in that much work I don’t see a problem with being rewarded. The larger problem IMO are botting concerns.  

Despite playing for 2 years at what my wife would call obsessive levels and being PvE focused I can count on 1 hand the times I’ve gotten better than T20 placement in a meaningful SCL (aka 7 or higher). The times I have it was either:
- 3 day event on a 3 day weekend where I had no family obligations.  It was shockingly easy how easy it was to get high placement when I had the correct time available. 
- Tapping on weekend events (I did this a grand total of twice ever). 

Its unbalanced that someone like me gets locked out of T20 or higher while others get it every time doing the same amount of work I do just at the right time (I do 7 clears, but can’t do the final clear optimally).  No amount of skill will fix this in the current system. 

I've seen you often in my bracket, 3.9. Which is filled to the brim with tappers and excellent PVE players. And the reason I know you are in there is because I see you grinding early often. At least you admit that that is the reason you don't finish well.

entrailbucket

I'm confused about how one might measure skill in a match-3 game, independent of speed or roster.  Isn't winning a fight the fastest the best way to tell?  What else would you measure?  Superhero match-3 isn't 4-dimensional chess, it's not like there's some strategy aspect to this.

Daredevil217

Daiches said:

broll said:

ZeroKarma said:

broll said:

entrailbucket said:

Speed = skill, mostly.  At the top end everyone is just racing to court death anyway (Thor may save you moves but he is provably not faster than Thanos/Starlord/Rocket), so the most skillful player is the one who can court death fastest.

The problem with redesigning PvE to reward specific node objectives or something is that this playerbase is such a bunch of degenerate minmaxers that everyone would immediately figure out how to get the most points with the least effort, then do that every time.  I don't think variety is ever going to be a part of the meta because most people have no interest in actually playing the game, they just want the maximum rewards with minimum effort.

No it doesn’t, at least not in this game. As @fight4thedream said it’s mostly a factor of having a certain set of core speed characters. Add to that being able to play at one of 5 key times in the day.  Neither of these have anything to do with skill and both are largely luck. 

Like most of the game RNG is the largest factor for having a good shot at placement.  However this RNG doesn’t change event to event and those who got the good rolls are handed better rewards every event. It’s a tinykitty system that needs to be overhauled or removed. 

If what you mean is that people without deep 5* rosters can’t compete for T1 in Cl9, well...you’re correct. That’s kind of how it works? And other games have similar gates and similar RNG factors.

This is the world of freemium where people that spend money or are fanatical from the inception of the game are going to have an advantage. And yet I know great players that rarely buy and build strong rosters with no problem competing.

While I sympathesize, by the way, with not being able to find an optimal time to play I don’t think it has very much to do with tapping. In my experience people who are tapping just so happen to do a final grind as well AND they do their initial grind on time. They are just lazy about it because they know they are going to spend all night hitting 3 pointers. I know one person who said he tapped because he can’t hit refreshes. The rest want rewards And want competition based around free time and not ability in game.

Additional note: Cl9 tappers that I have met often have rosters at lvl 500 and above. They are not victims of RNG.

My comment wasn’t nailed to any specific SCL. At all levels having the appropriate speed characters is a bigger factor than skill. 

As as far as times I wasn’t saying it had anything to do with tapping, just going counter the skill claim and supporting ideas for better win requirements that actually contain skill. 

My my only issue with tapping going away is that as others have claimed if someone wants to put in that much work I don’t see a problem with being rewarded. The larger problem IMO are botting concerns.  

Despite playing for 2 years at what my wife would call obsessive levels and being PvE focused I can count on 1 hand the times I’ve gotten better than T20 placement in a meaningful SCL (aka 7 or higher). The times I have it was either:
- 3 day event on a 3 day weekend where I had no family obligations.  It was shockingly easy how easy it was to get high placement when I had the correct time available. 
- Tapping on weekend events (I did this a grand total of twice ever). 

Its unbalanced that someone like me gets locked out of T20 or higher while others get it every time doing the same amount of work I do just at the right time (I do 7 clears, but can’t do the final clear optimally).  No amount of skill will fix this in the current system. 

I've seen you often in my bracket, 3.9. Which is filled to the brim with tappers and excellent PVE players. And the reason I know you are in there is because I see you grinding early often. At least you admit that that is the reason you don't finish well.

Umm... I think he did admit that?  He flat out said he does not have time to clear optimally because none of the time slices work with his schedule.  He also said he gets 7 clears, which to me means he HAS to grind early since he's not able to do it optimally.

Daiches

Daredevil217 said:

Daiches said:

broll said:

ZeroKarma said:

broll said:

entrailbucket said:

Speed = skill, mostly.  At the top end everyone is just racing to court death anyway (Thor may save you moves but he is provably not faster than Thanos/Starlord/Rocket), so the most skillful player is the one who can court death fastest.

The problem with redesigning PvE to reward specific node objectives or something is that this playerbase is such a bunch of degenerate minmaxers that everyone would immediately figure out how to get the most points with the least effort, then do that every time.  I don't think variety is ever going to be a part of the meta because most people have no interest in actually playing the game, they just want the maximum rewards with minimum effort.

No it doesn’t, at least not in this game. As @fight4thedream said it’s mostly a factor of having a certain set of core speed characters. Add to that being able to play at one of 5 key times in the day.  Neither of these have anything to do with skill and both are largely luck. 

Like most of the game RNG is the largest factor for having a good shot at placement.  However this RNG doesn’t change event to event and those who got the good rolls are handed better rewards every event. It’s a tinykitty system that needs to be overhauled or removed. 

If what you mean is that people without deep 5* rosters can’t compete for T1 in Cl9, well...you’re correct. That’s kind of how it works? And other games have similar gates and similar RNG factors.

This is the world of freemium where people that spend money or are fanatical from the inception of the game are going to have an advantage. And yet I know great players that rarely buy and build strong rosters with no problem competing.

While I sympathesize, by the way, with not being able to find an optimal time to play I don’t think it has very much to do with tapping. In my experience people who are tapping just so happen to do a final grind as well AND they do their initial grind on time. They are just lazy about it because they know they are going to spend all night hitting 3 pointers. I know one person who said he tapped because he can’t hit refreshes. The rest want rewards And want competition based around free time and not ability in game.

Additional note: Cl9 tappers that I have met often have rosters at lvl 500 and above. They are not victims of RNG.

My comment wasn’t nailed to any specific SCL. At all levels having the appropriate speed characters is a bigger factor than skill. 

As as far as times I wasn’t saying it had anything to do with tapping, just going counter the skill claim and supporting ideas for better win requirements that actually contain skill. 

My my only issue with tapping going away is that as others have claimed if someone wants to put in that much work I don’t see a problem with being rewarded. The larger problem IMO are botting concerns.  

Despite playing for 2 years at what my wife would call obsessive levels and being PvE focused I can count on 1 hand the times I’ve gotten better than T20 placement in a meaningful SCL (aka 7 or higher). The times I have it was either:
- 3 day event on a 3 day weekend where I had no family obligations.  It was shockingly easy how easy it was to get high placement when I had the correct time available. 
- Tapping on weekend events (I did this a grand total of twice ever). 

Its unbalanced that someone like me gets locked out of T20 or higher while others get it every time doing the same amount of work I do just at the right time (I do 7 clears, but can’t do the final clear optimally).  No amount of skill will fix this in the current system. 

I've seen you often in my bracket, 3.9. Which is filled to the brim with tappers and excellent PVE players. And the reason I know you are in there is because I see you grinding early often. At least you admit that that is the reason you don't finish well.

Umm... I think he did admit that?  He flat out said he does not have time to clear optimally because none of the time slices work with his schedule.  He also said he gets 7 clears, which to me means he HAS to grind early since he's not able to do it optimally.

I dropped a you in my reply..

ZeroKarma

broll said:

ZeroKarma said:

If what you mean is that people without deep 5* rosters can’t compete for T1 in Cl9, well...you’re correct. That’s kind of how it works? And other games have similar gates and similar RNG factors.

This is the world of freemium where people that spend money or are fanatical from the inception of the game are going to have an advantage. And yet I know great players that rarely buy and build strong rosters with no problem competing.

While I sympathesize, by the way, with not being able to find an optimal time to play I don’t think it has very much to do with tapping. In my experience people who are tapping just so happen to do a final grind as well AND they do their initial grind on time. They are just lazy about it because they know they are going to spend all night hitting 3 pointers. I know one person who said he tapped because he can’t hit refreshes. The rest want rewards And want competition based around free time and not ability in game.

Additional note: Cl9 tappers that I have met often have rosters at lvl 500 and above. They are not victims of RNG.

My comment wasn’t nailed to any specific SCL. At all levels having the appropriate speed characters is a bigger factor than skill. 

As as far as times I wasn’t saying it had anything to do with tapping, just going counter the skill claim and supporting ideas for better win requirements that actually contain skill. 

My only issue with tapping going away is that as others have claimed if someone wants to put in that much work I don’t see a problem with being rewarded. The larger problem IMO are botting concerns.  

Despite playing for 2 years at what my wife would call obsessive levels and being PvE focused I can count on 1 hand the times I’ve gotten better than T20 placement in a meaningful SCL (aka 7 or higher). The times I have it was either:
- 3 day event on a 3 day weekend where I had no family obligations.  It was shockingly easy how easy it was to get high placement when I had the correct time available. 
- Tapping on weekend events (I did this a grand total of twice ever). 

Its unbalanced that someone like me gets locked out of T20 or higher while others get it every time doing the same amount of work I do just at the right time (I do 7 clears, but can’t do the final clear optimally).  No amount of skill will fix this in the current system. 

I see a huge problem with awarding prizes to people who show up the most. Are participation trophies somehow now a competitive endeavor?

"Zerokarma had the highest sales in the division this month, but Daiches worked more hours so he's getting the  bonus instead."  Sorry @Daiches

You can argue for progression-based PvE, though I agree with the previous poster who pointed out this would probably diminish the rewards for everyone. You can argue for a way that we can have a floating start-time for everyone to reduce the need to play at a certain time. You can argue for Kaecilius type nodes throughout PvE with alternative win conditions because that will change the amount of "skill" needed. 

My prediction? The leaderboards would stay largely the same as they are now. People that have figured out how to do well in the current PvE setup will find a way to perform the same in any type of new environment. They are absolutely skilled players. 

But as soon as you move to forcing people to lower their QoL to get rewards in a futile race to see who can lower the bar on their real life the most, you are going to have a game on the down-swing.

Daredevil217

Daiches said:

Daredevil217 said:

Daiches said:

broll said:

ZeroKarma said:

broll said:

entrailbucket said:

Speed = skill, mostly.  At the top end everyone is just racing to court death anyway (Thor may save you moves but he is provably not faster than Thanos/Starlord/Rocket), so the most skillful player is the one who can court death fastest.

The problem with redesigning PvE to reward specific node objectives or something is that this playerbase is such a bunch of degenerate minmaxers that everyone would immediately figure out how to get the most points with the least effort, then do that every time.  I don't think variety is ever going to be a part of the meta because most people have no interest in actually playing the game, they just want the maximum rewards with minimum effort.

No it doesn’t, at least not in this game. As @fight4thedream said it’s mostly a factor of having a certain set of core speed characters. Add to that being able to play at one of 5 key times in the day.  Neither of these have anything to do with skill and both are largely luck. 

Like most of the game RNG is the largest factor for having a good shot at placement.  However this RNG doesn’t change event to event and those who got the good rolls are handed better rewards every event. It’s a tinykitty system that needs to be overhauled or removed. 

If what you mean is that people without deep 5* rosters can’t compete for T1 in Cl9, well...you’re correct. That’s kind of how it works? And other games have similar gates and similar RNG factors.

This is the world of freemium where people that spend money or are fanatical from the inception of the game are going to have an advantage. And yet I know great players that rarely buy and build strong rosters with no problem competing.

While I sympathesize, by the way, with not being able to find an optimal time to play I don’t think it has very much to do with tapping. In my experience people who are tapping just so happen to do a final grind as well AND they do their initial grind on time. They are just lazy about it because they know they are going to spend all night hitting 3 pointers. I know one person who said he tapped because he can’t hit refreshes. The rest want rewards And want competition based around free time and not ability in game.

Additional note: Cl9 tappers that I have met often have rosters at lvl 500 and above. They are not victims of RNG.

My comment wasn’t nailed to any specific SCL. At all levels having the appropriate speed characters is a bigger factor than skill. 

As as far as times I wasn’t saying it had anything to do with tapping, just going counter the skill claim and supporting ideas for better win requirements that actually contain skill. 

My my only issue with tapping going away is that as others have claimed if someone wants to put in that much work I don’t see a problem with being rewarded. The larger problem IMO are botting concerns.  

Despite playing for 2 years at what my wife would call obsessive levels and being PvE focused I can count on 1 hand the times I’ve gotten better than T20 placement in a meaningful SCL (aka 7 or higher). The times I have it was either:
- 3 day event on a 3 day weekend where I had no family obligations.  It was shockingly easy how easy it was to get high placement when I had the correct time available. 
- Tapping on weekend events (I did this a grand total of twice ever). 

Its unbalanced that someone like me gets locked out of T20 or higher while others get it every time doing the same amount of work I do just at the right time (I do 7 clears, but can’t do the final clear optimally).  No amount of skill will fix this in the current system. 

I've seen you often in my bracket, 3.9. Which is filled to the brim with tappers and excellent PVE players. And the reason I know you are in there is because I see you grinding early often. At least you admit that that is the reason you don't finish well.

Umm... I think he did admit that?  He flat out said he does not have time to clear optimally because none of the time slices work with his schedule.  He also said he gets 7 clears, which to me means he HAS to grind early since he's not able to do it optimally.

I dropped a you in my reply..

Ha!  I read that as "at least admit that is the reason you don't finish well".  I indeed missed the "you".  Totally changes how that reads.  Sorry!

Bowgentle

Daredevil217 said:

Daiches said:

Daredevil217 said:

Daiches said:

broll said:

ZeroKarma said:

broll said:

entrailbucket said:

Speed = skill, mostly.  At the top end everyone is just racing to court death anyway (Thor may save you moves but he is provably not faster than Thanos/Starlord/Rocket), so the most skillful player is the one who can court death fastest.

The problem with redesigning PvE to reward specific node objectives or something is that this playerbase is such a bunch of degenerate minmaxers that everyone would immediately figure out how to get the most points with the least effort, then do that every time.  I don't think variety is ever going to be a part of the meta because most people have no interest in actually playing the game, they just want the maximum rewards with minimum effort.

No it doesn’t, at least not in this game. As @fight4thedream said it’s mostly a factor of having a certain set of core speed characters. Add to that being able to play at one of 5 key times in the day.  Neither of these have anything to do with skill and both are largely luck. 

Like most of the game RNG is the largest factor for having a good shot at placement.  However this RNG doesn’t change event to event and those who got the good rolls are handed better rewards every event. It’s a tinykitty system that needs to be overhauled or removed. 

If what you mean is that people without deep 5* rosters can’t compete for T1 in Cl9, well...you’re correct. That’s kind of how it works? And other games have similar gates and similar RNG factors.

This is the world of freemium where people that spend money or are fanatical from the inception of the game are going to have an advantage. And yet I know great players that rarely buy and build strong rosters with no problem competing.

While I sympathesize, by the way, with not being able to find an optimal time to play I don’t think it has very much to do with tapping. In my experience people who are tapping just so happen to do a final grind as well AND they do their initial grind on time. They are just lazy about it because they know they are going to spend all night hitting 3 pointers. I know one person who said he tapped because he can’t hit refreshes. The rest want rewards And want competition based around free time and not ability in game.

Additional note: Cl9 tappers that I have met often have rosters at lvl 500 and above. They are not victims of RNG.

My comment wasn’t nailed to any specific SCL. At all levels having the appropriate speed characters is a bigger factor than skill. 

As as far as times I wasn’t saying it had anything to do with tapping, just going counter the skill claim and supporting ideas for better win requirements that actually contain skill. 

My my only issue with tapping going away is that as others have claimed if someone wants to put in that much work I don’t see a problem with being rewarded. The larger problem IMO are botting concerns.  

Despite playing for 2 years at what my wife would call obsessive levels and being PvE focused I can count on 1 hand the times I’ve gotten better than T20 placement in a meaningful SCL (aka 7 or higher). The times I have it was either:
- 3 day event on a 3 day weekend where I had no family obligations.  It was shockingly easy how easy it was to get high placement when I had the correct time available. 
- Tapping on weekend events (I did this a grand total of twice ever). 

Its unbalanced that someone like me gets locked out of T20 or higher while others get it every time doing the same amount of work I do just at the right time (I do 7 clears, but can’t do the final clear optimally).  No amount of skill will fix this in the current system. 

I've seen you often in my bracket, 3.9. Which is filled to the brim with tappers and excellent PVE players. And the reason I know you are in there is because I see you grinding early often. At least you admit that that is the reason you don't finish well.

Umm... I think he did admit that?  He flat out said he does not have time to clear optimally because none of the time slices work with his schedule.  He also said he gets 7 clears, which to me means he HAS to grind early since he's not able to do it optimally.

I dropped a you in my reply..

Ha!  I read that as "at least admit that is the reason you don't finish well".  I indeed missed the "you".  Totally changes how that reads.  Sorry!

He didn't have that you in there originally