Story Event Minimum Points - Trial Run (3/9/18)

Daredevil217

ZeroKarma said:

I see a huge problem with awarding prizes to people who show up the most. Are participation trophies somehow now a competitive endeavor?

"Zerokarma had the highest sales in the division this month, but Daiches worked more hours so he's getting the  bonus instead."  Sorry @Daiches

I disagree with this analogy.  ZK did not have the highest sales.  Daiches did.  Daiches worked more hours and during those hours was racking up $3 sale after $3 sale.  When you add it all up, it turns out he was pulling in more revenue for the company than ZK and thus he got the promotion.  ZK may have made more money in a shorter amount of time, but Daiches willingness to work extra and grind out some extra sales ultimately nabbed him the bonus.  This really isn't unheard of in the real world.

alaeth

Daredevil217 said:

ZeroKarma said:

I see a huge problem with awarding prizes to people who show up the most. Are participation trophies somehow now a competitive endeavor?

"Zerokarma had the highest sales in the division this month, but Daiches worked more hours so he's getting the  bonus instead."  Sorry @Daiches

I disagree with this analogy.  ZK did not have the highest sales.  Daiches did.  Daiches worked more hours and during those hours was racking up $3 sale after $3 sale.  When you add it all up, it turns out he was pulling in more revenue for the company than ZK and thus he got the promotion.  ZK may have made more money in a shorter amount of time, but Daiches willingness to work extra and grind out some extra sales ultimately nabbed him the bonus.  This really isn't unheard of in the real world.

Let's extend that analogy to this trial...

Memo from Management:
"We have noticed a trend of longer hours worked.  In some cases, staff is staying until 8, 9, or even midnight to earn extra sales.  While we cannot prevent this behavior, we would like to curtail the amount of time spent.

As a result, any sales submitted after 5pm will not be counted.

(Please go home once in a while @Daiches!)"


Basically, removing tapping removes the ability to "work overtime"... it will separate the top PvE players from those less efficient... people that are good (tinykitty good) at finishing PvE efficiently and fast will earn top placement.

Isn't that exactly what should be rewarded?


@broll Consider joining a different times-slice... I'm in S4 - it's brutal for T10... a lot of VERY heavy rosters.  I fully expect a 550 to out-perform me, so I settle for T50..  manage your expectations, and you won't be so disappointed. 

Bowgentle

Yes, I can recommend 2.9. No competition there, totally easy t10.
Lots of brackets, they flip like every 30 minutes.

broll

Daiches said:

broll said:

ZeroKarma said:

broll said:

entrailbucket said:

Speed = skill, mostly.  At the top end everyone is just racing to court death anyway (Thor may save you moves but he is provably not faster than Thanos/Starlord/Rocket), so the most skillful player is the one who can court death fastest.

The problem with redesigning PvE to reward specific node objectives or something is that this playerbase is such a bunch of degenerate minmaxers that everyone would immediately figure out how to get the most points with the least effort, then do that every time.  I don't think variety is ever going to be a part of the meta because most people have no interest in actually playing the game, they just want the maximum rewards with minimum effort.

No it doesn’t, at least not in this game. As @fight4thedream said it’s mostly a factor of having a certain set of core speed characters. Add to that being able to play at one of 5 key times in the day.  Neither of these have anything to do with skill and both are largely luck. 

Like most of the game RNG is the largest factor for having a good shot at placement.  However this RNG doesn’t change event to event and those who got the good rolls are handed better rewards every event. It’s a tinykitty system that needs to be overhauled or removed. 

If what you mean is that people without deep 5* rosters can’t compete for T1 in Cl9, well...you’re correct. That’s kind of how it works? And other games have similar gates and similar RNG factors.

This is the world of freemium where people that spend money or are fanatical from the inception of the game are going to have an advantage. And yet I know great players that rarely buy and build strong rosters with no problem competing.

While I sympathesize, by the way, with not being able to find an optimal time to play I don’t think it has very much to do with tapping. In my experience people who are tapping just so happen to do a final grind as well AND they do their initial grind on time. They are just lazy about it because they know they are going to spend all night hitting 3 pointers. I know one person who said he tapped because he can’t hit refreshes. The rest want rewards And want competition based around free time and not ability in game.

Additional note: Cl9 tappers that I have met often have rosters at lvl 500 and above. They are not victims of RNG.

My comment wasn’t nailed to any specific SCL. At all levels having the appropriate speed characters is a bigger factor than skill. 

As as far as times I wasn’t saying it had anything to do with tapping, just going counter the skill claim and supporting ideas for better win requirements that actually contain skill. 

My my only issue with tapping going away is that as others have claimed if someone wants to put in that much work I don’t see a problem with being rewarded. The larger problem IMO are botting concerns.  

Despite playing for 2 years at what my wife would call obsessive levels and being PvE focused I can count on 1 hand the times I’ve gotten better than T20 placement in a meaningful SCL (aka 7 or higher). The times I have it was either:
- 3 day event on a 3 day weekend where I had no family obligations.  It was shockingly easy how easy it was to get high placement when I had the correct time available. 
- Tapping on weekend events (I did this a grand total of twice ever). 

Its unbalanced that someone like me gets locked out of T20 or higher while others get it every time doing the same amount of work I do just at the right time (I do 7 clears, but can’t do the final clear optimally).  No amount of skill will fix this in the current system. 

I've seen you often in my bracket, 3.9. Which is filled to the brim with tappers and excellent PVE players. And the reason I know you are in there is because I see you grinding early often. At least you admit that that is the reason you don't finish well.

I admit that no time slice for my work schedule.  I admit that some points > no points. 

What I’ve come to accept as the most optimal I can do is:
4 clears at start. 
2-3 clears during my lunch break ~5 hours before the end. 

I clear early because I can’t guarantee 30-45 minutes at the end to play. So I clear when I can reasonably guarantee and accept my T50 begrudgingly. 

Daiches

broll said:

I admit that no time slice for my work schedule.  I admit that some points > no points. 

What I’ve come to accept as the most optimal I can do is:
4 clears at start. 
2-3 clears during my lunch break ~5 hours before the end. 

I clear early because I can’t guarantee 30-45 minutes at the end to play. So I clear when I can reasonably guarantee and accept my T50 begrudgingly. 

5h before S3 end time is S2 end time. Won't that work better for you then?

Bowgentle

Daiches said:

broll said:

I admit that no time slice for my work schedule.  I admit that some points > no points. 

What I’ve come to accept as the most optimal I can do is:
4 clears at start. 
2-3 clears during my lunch break ~5 hours before the end. 

I clear early because I can’t guarantee 30-45 minutes at the end to play. So I clear when I can reasonably guarantee and accept my T50 begrudgingly. 

5h before S3 end time is S2 end time. Won't that work better for you then?

See?
S2. No big rosters there, tons of flips.

randomhero1090

So with Unholy Alliance being 2 days, and these new rules, I guess I have to wait until the nodes are back to full points before starting, correct?

I am still unclear on these new rules.  Does a node lock at 0 points once it hits 0 points?

Bowgentle

randomhero1090 said:

So with Unholy Alliance being 2 days, and these new rules, I guess I have to wait until the nodes are back to full points before starting, correct?

I am still unclear on these new rules.  Does a node lock at 0 points once it hits 0 points?

You always had to wait until full points, under old rules too.

Nodes don't lock but regenerate very slowly.

randomhero1090

@Bowgentle Thank you!

Jomu5

Daiches said:

broll said:

I admit that no time slice for my work schedule.  I admit that some points > no points. 

What I’ve come to accept as the most optimal I can do is:
4 clears at start. 
2-3 clears during my lunch break ~5 hours before the end. 

I clear early because I can’t guarantee 30-45 minutes at the end to play. So I clear when I can reasonably guarantee and accept my T50 begrudgingly. 

5h before S3 end time is S2 end time. Won't that work better for you then?

Playing either side of the slice time would require at least double the time for the final clears and then the initial clears. As it's his lunch break at work, I doubt that will fly

ZeroKarma

Daredevil217 said:

ZeroKarma said:

I see a huge problem with awarding prizes to people who show up the most. Are participation trophies somehow now a competitive endeavor?

"Zerokarma had the highest sales in the division this month, but Daiches worked more hours so he's getting the  bonus instead."  Sorry @Daiches

I disagree with this analogy.  ZK did not have the highest sales.  Daiches did.  Daiches worked more hours and during those hours was racking up $3 sale after $3 sale.  When you add it all up, it turns out he was pulling in more revenue for the company than ZK and thus he got the promotion.  ZK may have made more money in a shorter amount of time, but Daiches willingness to work extra and grind out some extra sales ultimately nabbed him the bonus.  This really isn't unheard of in the real world.

Well if we want to extend the analogy we could also say that I am gaining a much larger margin on my sales and that Daiches is utilizing excessive  resources to get diminishing returns at the expense of his support team (aka family and friends)

ZeroKarma

alaeth said:

Daredevil217 said:

I disagree with this analogy.  ZK did not have the highest sales.  Daiches did.  Daiches worked more hours and during those hours was racking up $3 sale after $3 sale.  When you add it all up, it turns out he was pulling in more revenue for the company than ZK and thus he got the promotion.  ZK may have made more money in a shorter amount of time, but Daiches willingness to work extra and grind out some extra sales ultimately nabbed him the bonus.  This really isn't unheard of in the real world.

Let's extend that analogy to this trial...

Memo from Management:
"We have noticed a trend of longer hours worked.  In some cases, staff is staying until 8, 9, or even midnight to earn extra sales.  While we cannot prevent this behavior, we would like to curtail the amount of time spent.

As a result, any sales submitted after 5pm will not be counted.

(Please go home once in a while @Daiches

Essentially Daiches is that guy at work that ruins EVERYTHING. Everyone is ready to go to the bar but they don’t want to look bad

Daiches

I'm a meme now.

OneLastGambit

I'm just curious. Didn't we already have this test before during a run of EoTS? I think x23 was the t10 prize. And didn't everyone hate the Sprint to the finish style it forced? 

JHawkInc

OneLastGambit said:

I'm just curious. Didn't we already have this test before during a run of EoTS? I think x23 was the t10 prize. And didn't everyone hate the Sprint to the finish style it forced? 

The difference is that those nodes didn't regenerate at all, and were worth a flat amount of points. If you completed it all, you got a fixed number of points. These nodes still regenerate, they just start at zero (instead of 1-3 based on difficulty), so it's still the 4x clears at the start and 3x clear grind at the end pattern instead of a straight race to complete it all.

ZeroKarma

JHawkInc said:

OneLastGambit said:

I'm just curious. Didn't we already have this test before during a run of EoTS? I think x23 was the t10 prize. And didn't everyone hate the Sprint to the finish style it forced? 

The difference is that those nodes didn't regenerate at all, and were worth a flat amount of points. If you completed it all, you got a fixed number of points. These nodes still regenerate, they just start at zero (instead of 1-3 based on difficulty), so it's still the 4x clears at the start and 3x clear grind at the end pattern instead of a straight race to complete it all.

And in the EOTS trial, the only sub that really mattered was the last. As long as you cleared all of the other subs, even if you were 500th, you could win the last sub and still come in 1st.

I don’t expect there will be many ties this time around

Daredevil217

alaeth said:

Let's extend that analogy to this trial...

Memo from Management:
"We have noticed a trend of longer hours worked.  In some cases, staff is staying until 8, 9, or even midnight to earn extra sales.  While we cannot prevent this behavior, we would like to curtail the amount of time spent.

As a result, any sales submitted after 5pm will not be counted.

(Please go home once in a while @Daiches!)"


Basically, removing tapping removes the ability to "work overtime"... it will separate the top PvE players from those less efficient... people that are good (tinykitty good) at finishing PvE efficiently and fast will earn top placement.

Isn't that exactly what should be rewarded?

No, I think your analogy absolutely works.  The first one didn’t but this one does.  I never tapped, but I never got upset at people who did. Because it was well within the rules of the game. I once had an internship that talked about “self care”, but really the expectation was you’d work way more than 40 hours if you were to do everything demanded of you. So very mixed messages similar to D3 (tapping isn’t healthy, but we give the best rewards to tappers).  I never got upset because I was never willing to work that hard (in my job or this game lol).  But I don’t begrudge people who were willing to put in the extra time. 

Now the rules have changed. Under the old rules those who put in time were rewarded. The bosses said we don’t like this.  We really do value self-care. We’re kicking you all out at 5!  So now people with the best/fastest rosters who clear optimally are rewarded. Didn’t care then, don’t care now. As long as people aren’t hacking the game, using bots, etc. I won’t knock your hustle. 

ZeroKarma said:

Well if we want to extend the analogy we could also say that I am gaining a much larger margin on my sales and that Daiches is utilizing excessive  resources to get diminishing returns at the expense of his support team (aka family and friends)

I’m sorry. Maybe it is because I’m not in the business world in real life, but I have no idea what any of this means lol. I don’t know what margin on sales mean nor do I understand what excessive resources are as he’s not using the “company’s” resources. Just his own. Under the old system he’s working over his lunch break while you and I are at Panera. That’s not a drain on the company. It’s a plus. 

shardwick

Daredevil217 said:

aesthetocyst said:

just started event and looked at rewards.

I sure am glad they saved us from tapping for those sweet Drax covers

It’s my understanding that the tappers are in CL9 and do so for the Legendary; not the 4* covers that they are beyond, though I could be wrong. 

leoperez90 said:

I think it's best if you decrease the amount of times one has to clear the missions from 6 to 4 this would give players more time to enjoy the game and have time to do some PvP. 

I believe you only need 5 clears, not 6 for max progression. And perhaps only need 4 if you include the 5* node and clear optimally. 

maguirenumber6 said:

I do agree with others who say that PvE should be progression only. The devs, to my mind, could fairly easily make small changes to the PvE reward structure in order to integrate the placement rewards.

I strongly disagree with those folks. You can play for progression only and clear at your own pace now. PVP that’s not an option because progression is often met with even greater regression if you aren’t putting up shields regualrly. But you can absolutely play to max progression in PVE no problem. People asking for PVE to be progression only either want to remove rewards (which I completely don’t get) or make it so everyone gets the top placement rewards (which the developers won’t do as it severely lessens the value of said rewards). So I cringe every time I hear this statement. PVE is fine as is. After removing roster based scaling and tapping, I hope they leave it alone. PVP is where the work needs to be done IMO. 

Alliance events are progression only.
DDQ is progression only.
The gauntlet was progression only when it ran.
Mini events (Coulson, GotG) were progression only when they ran.
System Reboot is progression only.
Shield Training is progression only.

But we shouldn't make the rest of pve events progression only because it would severely lessen the value of said rewards, or something.

If DDQ had placement rewards:
A post in the best moment of the day thread. "Just barely got top 10 in my ddq bracket to snag the legendary!!!! Sucks to be in 11th and only get some taco tokens and the 3* cover."

On my baby acct the alliance that I'm in is pretty casual but they go pretty damn hard when it comes to alliance events. When we were able to clear round 7 on the last day to get the third Vulture cover we were all extremely excited and proud of ourselves. I don't think anyone could say that those rewards that we worked so hard for lost value simply because they were progression rewards and not placement rewards. If anything taking placement rewards and putting them into the tail end of the progression structure would only increase their value because you would need to clear most nodes to get them.

An example. A three day pve event with three subs has ten nodes and each node has six clears. A player wants to get all rewards. There is no longer an arbitrary point number set for each node that refreshes. 

4 clears of each node - 120 clears for cp (old max prog standard)
5 clears of each node - 150 clears for hp, event tokens and iso
6 clears of each node - 180 clears for extra cp, iso and a 4* cover for the next event (or equivalent on lower clearance levels)
Bonus sub looks similar to ddq layout would be unlocked with all clears completed - extra covers, hp, iso, tokens, cp

Time slices are gone. Tapping is done. Bracket sniping is done. Waiting for a bracket to flip in the middle of the night is done. Oh and alliance rewards would work in a similar way as alliance events. Or we could keep the current structure because playing hardcore and being top 5 for a week long event only to have your internet/server go down in the final hour of your grind on the last day which knocks you out of the top 10, when you had a great shot at first place, is always super fun.

Bowgentle

shardwick said:

Daredevil217 said:

aesthetocyst said:

just started event and looked at rewards.

I sure am glad they saved us from tapping for those sweet Drax covers

It’s my understanding that the tappers are in CL9 and do so for the Legendary; not the 4* covers that they are beyond, though I could be wrong. 

leoperez90 said:

I think it's best if you decrease the amount of times one has to clear the missions from 6 to 4 this would give players more time to enjoy the game and have time to do some PvP. 

I believe you only need 5 clears, not 6 for max progression. And perhaps only need 4 if you include the 5* node and clear optimally. 

maguirenumber6 said:

I do agree with others who say that PvE should be progression only. The devs, to my mind, could fairly easily make small changes to the PvE reward structure in order to integrate the placement rewards.

I strongly disagree with those folks. You can play for progression only and clear at your own pace now. PVP that’s not an option because progression is often met with even greater regression if you aren’t putting up shields regualrly. But you can absolutely play to max progression in PVE no problem. People asking for PVE to be progression only either want to remove rewards (which I completely don’t get) or make it so everyone gets the top placement rewards (which the developers won’t do as it severely lessens the value of said rewards). So I cringe every time I hear this statement. PVE is fine as is. After removing roster based scaling and tapping, I hope they leave it alone. PVP is where the work needs to be done IMO. 

Alliance events are progression only.
DDQ is progression only.
The gauntlet was progression only when it ran.
Mini events (Coulson, GotG) were progression only when they ran.
System Reboot is progression only.
Shield Training is progression only.

But we shouldn't make the rest of pve events progression only because it would severely lessen the value of said rewards, or something.

If DDQ had placement rewards:
A post in the best moment of the day thread. "Just barely got top 10 in my ddq bracket to snag the legendary!!!! Sucks to be in 11th and only get some taco tokens and the 3* cover."

On my baby acct the alliance that I'm in is pretty casual but they go pretty damn hard when it comes to alliance events. When we were able to clear round 7 on the last day to get the third Vulture cover we were all extremely excited and proud of ourselves. I don't think anyone could say that those rewards that we worked so hard for lost value simply because they were progression rewards and not placement rewards. If anything taking placement rewards and putting them into the tail end of the progression structure would only increase their value because you would need to clear most nodes to get them.

An example. A three day pve event with three subs has ten nodes and each node has six clears. A player wants to get all rewards. There is no longer an arbitrary point number set for each node that refreshes. 

4 clears of each node - 120 clears for cp (old max prog standard)
5 clears of each node - 150 clears for hp, event tokens and iso
6 clears of each node - 180 clears for extra cp, iso and a 4* cover for the next event (or equivalent on lower clearance levels)
Bonus sub looks similar to ddq layout would be unlocked with all clears completed - extra covers, hp, iso, tokens, cp

Time slices are gone. Tapping is done. Bracket sniping is done. Waiting for a bracket to flip in the middle of the night is done. Oh and alliance rewards would work in a similar way as alliance events. Or we could keep the current structure because playing hardcore and being top 5 for a week long event only to have your internet/server go down in the final hour of your grind on the last day which knocks you out of the top 10, when you had a great shot at first place, is always super fun.

Devs don't want progression only.
They want competition for the best rewards - CP and LTs.
It's what drives spending.

It wasn't an accident that the final 15 CP were for T10, not in progression, when they tried win-based PVP.

ZeroKarma

That

was

fun!!!

For me it’s refreshing to have that race determine who wins the sub. I finished 1st in my sub by 2 points and it’s going to be a battle the whole event.

Normally by this time the event is, for all intents and purposes, over. Someone would have tapped for 4-5 hours and built a 1000 point lead that couldn’t be overcome. Now the whole event is relevant again.

Thank you @Demiurge_Anthony @Demiurge_Will