Proof that the devs are not listening to the players.

naphomci

I know the topic may be a bit harsh, but it is nonetheless true. Five and a half weeks ago, after the first changes to Trial of Zeal, @Brigby made a poll (here) asking what people felt about the changes. A cumulative 68% of players wanted a change to the node recharge rate. Apparently, that information wasn't enough, so they added charges but did not change the recharge rate. Two weeks later, @Brigby made another poll (here), and this time the results were even starker. 72% of players straight voted for changing the recharge time. Another 5% wanted it all changed, and another 10% wanted several things changed. More than 75% wanted a recharge rate change.

So, what happened? The first week after the new poll, there was no change because it was Canada Day (no joke, this was the answer). Then, the next weekend was the trial of strength. Now, we are at this weekend. The devs had three weeks to change the recharge time. The recharge is still at 4 hours, when more than a supermajority in the poll wanted a change.

Makes it rather difficult to give any credibility to the devs claiming they listen to the players when the results of the poll that @Brigby posted, twice, are ignored.

Laeuftbeidir

Well...
"Another point added to the long list .... " would fit the title as well. There is nothing special about this case..just a continued pattern of ignored feedback and general silence whenever it comes to something players complain about (not that I wouldn't agree 100% on the topic!). 

Gotcha617

I love the 4hour charge and the added spots so you can wait longer...this is one thing they hit right on the head.

naphomci

Gotcha617 said:

I love the 4hour charge and the added spots so you can wait longer...this is one thing they hit right on the head.

You are in the minority if you look at those polls.

julianus

naphomci said:

Gotcha617 said:

I love the 4hour charge and the added spots so you can wait longer...this is one thing they hit right on the head.

You are in the minority if you look at those polls.

To be fair, only relative to the minority of players that even bother to post on the forums.

And to be doubly fair, I will admit that I found Trial of Zeal to be way too much of a grind and don't bother playing it anymore.

Gilesclone

I suspect they found that a large percentage of players can't beat node 3.  So they added enough charges so that those users can make progression or at least closer to it.

madwren

Gilesclone said:

I suspect they found that a large percentage of players can't beat node 3.  So they added enough charges so that those users can make progression or at least closer to it.

The solution would be to lower the progression barrier--which, if you recall, was nearly doubled from its previous incarnation.  Instead, they boosted it from 450 to 750, added a "basic booster" as an award, and act like they're doing players a favor.

Daddystyx

@Brigby is only the messenger and has nothing to do with the wisdom the devs chose to follow.  I don't agree with D3's quick trigger pull on making the recharge rate 4hrs followed by ignoring the information I know Brigby has been passing to them. I don't believe the Dev's take the information Brigby is bringing them seriously. One can only hope the dev's will begin to listen to the information Brigby is providing them.

Ohboy

madwren said:

Gilesclone said:

I suspect they found that a large percentage of players can't beat node 3.  So they added enough charges so that those users can make progression or at least closer to it.

The solution would be to lower the progression barrier--which, if you recall, was nearly doubled from its previous incarnation.  Instead, they boosted it from 450 to 750, added a "basic booster" as an award, and act like they're doing players a favor.

Remember your own experience against an unbeatable boss? Which did you prefer? More attempts or less? 

madwren

Ohboy said:

madwren said:

Gilesclone said:

I suspect they found that a large percentage of players can't beat node 3.  So they added enough charges so that those users can make progression or at least closer to it.

The solution would be to lower the progression barrier--which, if you recall, was nearly doubled from its previous incarnation.  Instead, they boosted it from 450 to 750, added a "basic booster" as an award, and act like they're doing players a favor.

Remember your own experience against an unbeatable boss? Which did you prefer? More attempts or less? 

Adding more attempts increases the number of losses *and* the number of wins. If you can beat the boss X% of the time, you beat him X% of the time.  If I win 40% of the time and have to play 20 matches, I'd much rather sit through 4 wins and 6 losses than 8 wins and 12 losses.

Ohboy

madwren said:

Ohboy said:

madwren said:

Gilesclone said:

I suspect they found that a large percentage of players can't beat node 3.  So they added enough charges so that those users can make progression or at least closer to it.

The solution would be to lower the progression barrier--which, if you recall, was nearly doubled from its previous incarnation.  Instead, they boosted it from 450 to 750, added a "basic booster" as an award, and act like they're doing players a favor.

Remember your own experience against an unbeatable boss? Which did you prefer? More attempts or less? 

Adding more attempts increases the number of losses *and* the number of wins. If you can beat the boss X% of the time, you beat him X% of the time.  If I win 40% of the time and have to play 20 matches, I'd much rather sit through 4 wins and 6 losses than 8 wins and 12 losses.

I'm sorry I should have been more clear. By unbeatable I meant you could beat him 0% of the time. 

IM_CARLOS

Node 3 is not unbeatable. Sure you have to use the right devk, but it's beatable. 

The last time I beat every match every  time, but by 1.300 points  I quit because 4 hours counter means I have another job for weekend.  A job I didn't get money. 

Such an event is fun for the first time, but after weeks and weeks it's just boring and a short counter let it "flow" like a real job for nothing, or a dupe and something virtual bling, bling. So I quit. 

Ohboy

IM_CARLOS said:

Node 3 is not unbeatable. Sure you have to use the right devk, but it's beatable. 

The last time I beat every match every  time, but by 1.300 points  I quit because 4 hours counter means I have another job for weekend.  A job I didn't get money. 

Such an event is fun for the first time, but after weeks and weeks it's just boring and a short counter let it "flow" like a real job for nothing, or a dupe and something virtual bling, bling. So I quit. 

Remember last month when everyone was on a "let's think of the new/casual players" kick? 

Certainly convenient to forget about them when their needs aren't in line with yours isn't it? 

Of course node 3 isn't unbeatable for some of us. But for many, it still is. And they want more tries to beat it. I've been trying to beat it without cycling and cast out for weeks. 4h charges still aren't enough when you lose every attempt and are itching to have another go. 

Also, you don't have to do every 4 hours to meet progression. 

Steeme

The way I see it right now, the coalitions are pressuring each other to maximize every charge which in turn is bringing the boss HP down more quickly.  The boss HP diminishes too quickly for newer players, which forces D3H to increase the number of charges + boss HP.  This "forces" coalition players to play even more charges thus perpetuating the grind.

It's time to start segregating casual and competitive play.  They should not affect each other.

naphomci said:

So, what happened? The first week after the new poll, there was no change because it was Canada Day (no joke, this was the answer).

Sorry I had to LOL at this slight.  I suppose you work over your long weekend / vacation time?  No doubt you would do so in response to such harsh criticism as well.  (No joke, some players actually call the Devs incompetent).

naphomci

Steeme said:

The way I see it right now, the coalitions are pressuring each other to maximize every charge which in turn is bringing the boss HP down more quickly.  The boss HP diminishes too quickly for newer players, which forces D3H to increase the number of charges + boss HP.  This "forces" coalition players to play even more charges thus perpetuating the grind.

It's time to start segregating casual and competitive play.  They should not affect each other.

naphomci said:

So, what happened? The first week after the new poll, there was no change because it was Canada Day (no joke, this was the answer).

Sorry I had to LOL at this slight.  I suppose you work over your long weekend / vacation time?  No doubt you would do so in response to such harsh criticism as well.  (No joke, some players actually call the Devs incompetent).

This slight was more because the implication of the statement was that the devs were unavailable all week because of Canada Day. I highly doubt they were off the entire week. Personally, I am firmly against people working on days off, I just don't think one day off means a week of not changing it.

As for the discussion, even if you want to assume that the change was for the benefit of the new player (and don't forget, reducing prizes was "for the new player" as was removal of QB), there are numerous ways to help newer players without annoying your established players. The discussion above seems to imply the only solution was a 4 hour timer. They could reduce progression, nerf the third node, or do a 6 hour timer, any of which is preferable to a 4 hour timer.

Ohboy

Other than the nerf, none of those suggestions help the new player attempt to beat the boss. 

And the last time they went that route, the reaction quickly went from "the objectives are too hard" to "most boring event ever" 

Phillmoore

I am of the camp the more tries the better.  Yes I can now with luck beat the gods. But a lot on my team can't and therefor want more tries and don't want to wait 8 hours. No one is forcing anyone to play this game or to play to a schedule.  If it feels like work don't do it. It's supposed to be fun and I still get a kick out of beating a god in level 3. No matter how many attempts I get. I also don't have to play every 4 hours as someone mentioned. As an insomniac it's good to have something to do in the dark hours when everyone else is sleeping! 

hawkyh1

if you want to get 750 ribbons instead of the previous
450 ribbons in a similar time period, then you are
going to need to play/win 66% more battles. there's
no two ways about it, and that's what I believe people
are objecting to. it's a big change in time needed and
if it wasn't coalition no one would care.

HH

madwren

Phillmoore said:

I am of the camp the more tries the better.  Yes I can now with luck beat the gods. But a lot on my team can't and therefor want more tries and don't want to wait 8 hours. No one is forcing anyone to play this game or to play to a schedule.  If it feels like work don't do it. It's supposed to be fun and I still get a kick out of beating a god in level 3. No matter how many attempts I get. I also don't have to play every 4 hours as someone mentioned. As an insomniac it's good to have something to do in the dark hours when everyone else is sleeping! 

If no one is forcing anyone to play this game or play to a schedule, then you shouldn't mind when your players play every 8 hours instead of every 4.

Additionally, if the people for whom this felt like work didn't do it, then the boss would never die.

madwren

Ohboy said:

Other than the nerf, none of those suggestions help the new player attempt to beat the boss. 

And the last time they went that route, the reaction quickly went from "the objectives are too hard" to "most boring event ever" 

The event has long surpassed "most boring event ever" and has entered "overly punitive grind" territory.

Regarding your “Unbeatable” comment, you’re saying that because John can’t win, it’s ok to force the rest of us to play these incredibly arduous nodes every 4 hours, instead of simply retaining the 8-hour nodes--which worked successfully until this spontaneous, unsolicited change--and either designing more accessible content or lowering the boss hp accordingly.

If John can't beat the event, then it doesn't matter to him whether the boss has 10000 hp or 1000000 hp. He still can't beat it.  Giving him attempts to learn how to beat it doesn't justify the disservice this does to those who can beat it.

If I had a 100-pound weight, and you couldn't lift it, would it be fair to ask me to lift it for you twice as often, just to give you more chances to try yourself? No.

Ohboy

madwren said:

Phillmoore said:

I am of the camp the more tries the better.  Yes I can now with luck beat the gods. But a lot on my team can't and therefor want more tries and don't want to wait 8 hours. No one is forcing anyone to play this game or to play to a schedule.  If it feels like work don't do it. It's supposed to be fun and I still get a kick out of beating a god in level 3. No matter how many attempts I get. I also don't have to play every 4 hours as someone mentioned. As an insomniac it's good to have something to do in the dark hours when everyone else is sleeping! 

If no one is forcing anyone to play this game or play to a schedule, then you shouldn't mind when your players play every 8 hours instead of every 4.

Additionally, if the people for whom this felt like work didn't do it, then the boss would never die.

Except of course you gloss over the whole point, which is that 4h recharges means they get to attempt more often. 

Also, boss doesn't need to die for event to end anymore, remember? 

madwren said:

Ohboy said:

Other than the nerf, none of those suggestions help the new player attempt to beat the boss. 

And the last time they went that route, the reaction quickly went from "the objectives are too hard" to "most boring event ever" 

The event has long surpassed "most boring event ever" and has entered "overly punitive grind" territory.

Regarding your “Unbeatable” comment, you’re saying that because John can’t win, it’s ok to force the rest of us to play these incredibly arduous nodes every 4 hours, instead of simply retaining the 8-hour nodes--which worked successfully until this spontaneous, unsolicited change--and either designing more accessible content or lowering the boss hp accordingly.

If John can't beat the event, then it doesn't matter to him whether the boss has 10000 hp or 1000000 hp. He still can't beat it.  Giving him attempts to learn how to beat it doesn't justify the disservice this does to those who can beat it.

If I had a 100-pound weight, and you couldn't lift it, would it be fair to ask me to lift it for you twice as often, just to give you more chances to try yourself? No.

No one is forcing you to lift those weights. You are doing it to yourself. For coalition rewards. Boiled down to its simplest form, you're saying that you shouldn't need to put in the necessary effort to stay at the top of rankings. Why not just make it 9 total charges and call it a day. 

The 8h recharges did NOT work successfully. There are still tons of people who struggle to get the progression rewards now. But getting to attempt more often is good for them. 

Rules should always bend to benefit the casual/new player, not make things easier for the hard-core players.